Necromunda Ko’iron Ministorum Delegation

[Toxichobbit]

1 hour ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

 

Is it though? Let's assume that your interpratation that Prima Materis is not a real priestess and the Frateris bodyguards are not real Frateris is correct. She is the one, who in this group should be masquerading with priestly outfit, not her henchmen, if they are trying to fool the masses. I also have hard time imagining how a not so powerfull noble house could enjoy such good relations with the Ecclesiarchy (they are effectively glued to it) if its members were parading in public dressed up in full priesthood regalia, not only pretending to be members of Adeptus Ministorum but also giving the whole garb to some nobodies.

 

My interpretation is not that the Prima Materis is not a "real priestess" (whatever that means) - I own House of Faith, I know what she is. Given that you have already assumed what my interpretation is and got it wrong, I think it's best if we stop assuming and deal with facts. 

 

The Prima Materis is a "real" priestess - she performs rituals, prayers and blessings. But she is also an agent and enforcer of House Ko'iron. So there is no "masquerading", she is not "pretending to be a member of the Adeptus Ministorum". She is a priestess, she's just not an Ecclesiarchal priestess. 

 

The Frateris bodyguards are veterans of Wars of Faith and bodyguards of an important member of one of the seven great Houses of Necromunda. However, they are not priests or members of the Ecclesiarchy.

 

To expand upon my first post as to why it's important that these are members of House Ko'iron rather than the Ecclesiarchy - House Ko'iron has survived thousands of years (not an easy feat on Necromunda), has strong ties to the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororitas and has access to Ecclesiarchy relics. They're one of the seven great Houses of Necromuda. They have held on to their position for so long because of their faith and because they have connections with both the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororitas. It makes perfect sense that they would be using as much religious splendour as possible when they are out among the masses, because their very existence is maintained by their position as the most faithful Noble House and the most visible official representatives of the God Emperor on Necromunda. They may not be the Ecclesiarchy, but they have it's backing and from a faithful Underhiver's perspective (and bare in mind that these models are representing members of the House going into the underhive), they are the same thing. 

 

Finally, the crux of your argument seems to be (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Ecclesiarchy will take issue with them wearing mitres and other priestly regalia. Where does this assumption come from? I have never seen any lore stating that only the Ecclesiarchy can wear priestly regalia and that the Ecclesiarchy has a problem with anybody else dressed like that.

 

I have, however, seen evidence to the contrary. Astartes Chapters wearing priestly regalia (robes, censors, rosarius etc) and the Mechanicus are often dressed as priests (though they do have a distinct style and are obviously priests of a different religion) - so the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have the monopoly on priestly regalia. But most importantly, the Redemption have been dressing as priests, including wearing mitres, as far back as 1995. They're an independent (i.e. not Ecclesiarchal), outlawed Cult that's part of House Cawdor, mostly made up of zealous underhivers. And yet the Ecclesiarchy is fine with them wearing all the priestly regalia they want - as evidenced because the Ecclesiarchy has no issues with the Redemption joining them for Wars of Faith and Crusades. If the Ecclesiarchy was going to have a problem with other people wearing big hats, then they'd for sure have a problem with the outlawed cult of zealots before they had a problem with a powerful Noble House on one of the most important worlds in the Imperium.

 

From the perspective of House Ko'iron, it makes perfect sense that they would have any visible members wearing as much priestly regalia as possible. And from the perspective of the Ecclesiarchy, given their tolerance of other organisations religious trappings and their acceptance of the Redemption, they don't seem to care either way.

[AlanofAngels]

18 hours ago, Joe said:

 

WarCom Article.

 

It's Christmas time, so obviously time for church.

I wasn't expecting a 40k Emperor model so soon!

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

8 hours ago, Toxichobbit said:

 

My interpretation is not that the Prima Materis is not a "real priestess" (whatever that means) - I own House of Faith, I know what she is. Given that you have already assumed what my interpretation is and got it wrong, I think it's best if we stop assuming and deal with facts. 

 

The Prima Materis is a "real" priestess - she performs rituals, prayers and blessings. But she is also an agent and enforcer of House Ko'iron. So there is no "masquerading", she is not "pretending to be a member of the Adeptus Ministorum". She is a priestess, she's just not an Ecclesiarchal priestess. 

 

The Frateris bodyguards are veterans of Wars of Faith and bodyguards of an important member of one of the seven great Houses of Necromunda. However, they are not priests or members of the Ecclesiarchy.

 

To expand upon my first post as to why it's important that these are members of House Ko'iron rather than the Ecclesiarchy - House Ko'iron has survived thousands of years (not an easy feat on Necromunda), has strong ties to the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororitas and has access to Ecclesiarchy relics. They're one of the seven great Houses of Necromuda. They have held on to their position for so long because of their faith and because they have connections with both the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororitas. It makes perfect sense that they would be using as much religious splendour as possible when they are out among the masses, because their very existence is maintained by their position as the most faithful Noble House and the most visible official representatives of the God Emperor on Necromunda. They may not be the Ecclesiarchy, but they have it's backing and from a faithful Underhiver's perspective (and bare in mind that these models are representing members of the House going into the underhive), they are the same thing. 

 

Finally, the crux of your argument seems to be (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Ecclesiarchy will take issue with them wearing mitres and other priestly regalia. Where does this assumption come from? I have never seen any lore stating that only the Ecclesiarchy can wear priestly regalia and that the Ecclesiarchy has a problem with anybody else dressed like that.

 

I have, however, seen evidence to the contrary. Astartes Chapters wearing priestly regalia (robes, censors, rosarius etc) and the Mechanicus are often dressed as priests (though they do have a distinct style and are obviously priests of a different religion) - so the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have the monopoly on priestly regalia. But most importantly, the Redemption have been dressing as priests, including wearing mitres, as far back as 1995. They're an independent (i.e. not Ecclesiarchal), outlawed Cult that's part of House Cawdor, mostly made up of zealous underhivers. And yet the Ecclesiarchy is fine with them wearing all the priestly regalia they want - as evidenced because the Ecclesiarchy has no issues with the Redemption joining them for Wars of Faith and Crusades. If the Ecclesiarchy was going to have a problem with other people wearing big hats, then they'd for sure have a problem with the outlawed cult of zealots before they had a problem with a powerful Noble House on one of the most important worlds in the Imperium.

 

From the perspective of House Ko'iron, it makes perfect sense that they would have any visible members wearing as much priestly regalia as possible. And from the perspective of the Ecclesiarchy, given their tolerance of other organisations religious trappings and their acceptance of the Redemption, they don't seem to care either way.

 

OK, so let me recapitulate your argument and please correct me if I am wrong:

We have a group called "Ministorum delegation" led by a priestess of the Empreror wearing the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy and accompanied by (ex-?)members of Frateris militia and this group is neither an official Ministorum delegation nor is pretending to be one? Fair enough. Indeed I have no sources stating that Ecclesiarchy discoursages wearing priestly regalia and symbols of the Ministorum while calling yourself Ministorum. I even concede that Ministorum symbol in itself is also a devotional symbol. But what about the name Ministorum refering exclusively to the Ecclesiarchy in the Book of Faith?

 

I'm not gonna argue whether old redemptorist miniatures had mitres or stylized caps, never had one in my hand.

 

I don't remember saying that Ministorum are the only priests out there. I said that only priests should be dressed like priests and it makes no sense to dress like a priest someone who is not one in a group with a priest (and I said that people calling themselves Ministorum, dressing like Ministorum (or pirests if you like) and wearing Ministorum symbols while not being Ministorum are pretending to be Ministorum). Especially by people who both are very devout and are connected with the Ecclesiarchy, so are not ones to use those symbols lightly. And house Ko'iron is not pretending to be religious. I don't recall anythin in the Book of Faith implying that Ko'iron is " the most visible official representatives of the God Emperor on Necromunda" and "they have it's backing and from a faithful Underhiver's perspective they are the same thing".

 

I don't understand why Astartes Chaplains would collide with Ministorum, considering that rosarius is used by Astartes speciffically as the symbol of the official ecclesiastic sanction granted to them by the Ecclesiarchy.

 

Redemption was nearly excommunicated and Redemtionist are outlaws, so saying that Ecclesiarchy has no issues with them is weird to me.

[gideon stargreave]

Almost the whole imperium operates as a sort of cargo cult. The most obvious example is how the mechanicus is presented, or rather how the general population feel about them. However there are tonnes of little bits of fluff where imperial citizens (or denizens) own things that have power but don’t know why they have power. 
I’d say that a powerful noble having bodyguards that fetishize wider symbols of authority/ holiness/ mystery is no surprise at all on the setting. I’m sure that on a thousand worlds people worship bits of a started armour/ ape their style and more. So why not these. Excellent minis

[Toxichobbit]

On 12/24/2024 at 10:32 AM, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

 

OK, so let me recapitulate your argument and please correct me if I am wrong:

We have a group called "Ministorum delegation" led by a priestess of the Empreror wearing the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy and accompanied by (ex-?)members of Frateris militia and this group is neither an official Ministorum delegation nor is pretending to be one? Fair enough. Indeed I have no sources stating that Ecclesiarchy discoursages wearing priestly regalia and symbols of the Ministorum while calling yourself Ministorum. I even concede that Ministorum symbol in itself is also a devotional symbol. But what about the name Ministorum refering exclusively to the Ecclesiarchy in the Book of Faith?

 

I'm not gonna argue whether old redemptorist miniatures had mitres or stylized caps, never had one in my hand.

 

I don't remember saying that Ministorum are the only priests out there. I said that only priests should be dressed like priests and it makes no sense to dress like a priest someone who is not one in a group with a priest (and I said that people calling themselves Ministorum, dressing like Ministorum (or pirests if you like) and wearing Ministorum symbols while not being Ministorum are pretending to be Ministorum). Especially by people who both are very devout and are connected with the Ecclesiarchy, so are not ones to use those symbols lightly. And house Ko'iron is not pretending to be religious. I don't recall anythin in the Book of Faith implying that Ko'iron is " the most visible official representatives of the God Emperor on Necromunda" and "they have it's backing and from a faithful Underhiver's perspective they are the same thing".

 

I don't understand why Astartes Chaplains would collide with Ministorum, considering that rosarius is used by Astartes speciffically as the symbol of the official ecclesiastic sanction granted to them by the Ecclesiarchy.

 

Redemption was nearly excommunicated and Redemtionist are outlaws, so saying that Ecclesiarchy has no issues with them is weird to me.

 

"We have a group called "Ministorum delegation" 

"But what about the name Ministorum refering exclusively to the Ecclesiarchy in the Book of Faith?"

 

I suspect that's the heart of the problem, though it's a different problem to how they're dressed. Their name is Ministorum delegation and yet they are not part of the Ministorum/Ecclesiarchy. For that one, I've got nothing, as there is no explanation for it. Personally, I think it's a bad name. I could guess that it's meant to imply that they are Ministorum sanctioned, or that the Ministorum allows them to use their name as a stamp of approval, or that the games designer forgot that Ministorum is just an alternate name for the Ecclesiarchy. But all of that would just be guesses.

 

"wearing the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy"

 

"the pious Matriarchs provide the Clan House* with genuine holy objects drawn from the stores of the Ministorum..." - exact quote from House of Faith. That explains the Ecclesiarchal symbol. They have access to holy objects, relics etc that the Ministorum holds in storage. So anything with Ecclesiarchal/Ministorum symbols on it is obviously going to be something drawn from those stores. The symbol above her chair fits in perfectly with the lore.

*it's referring to House Cawdor here.

 

"I don't recall anythin in the Book of Faith implying that Ko'iron is " the most visible official representatives of the God Emperor on Necromunda" and "they have it's backing and from a faithful Underhiver's perspective they are the same thing"."

 

It doesn't state it directly, but it's fairly obvious, though you do need to go outside of House of Faith. Necromunda is the most detailed world in the Imperium. It has significantly more lore than even Holy Terra. And yet there's barely any mention of the Ecclesiarchy. We know there's a Sororitas Covenant somewhere in Hive Primus, though they are never seen and barely mentioned. It's safe to assume that there are Ecclesiarchal chapels in the Spires and Hive City. But there is no notable presence among the Underhive or Ash Wastes. Necromunda lore has always been very clear that the main Imperial religious organisations are House Cawdor, the Redemption and more recently, House Ko'iron. Given that House Ko'iron is at the top of that food chain and present in all levels of Necromundan society, from the Spire to the Underhivve, with House Cawdor almost being subservient to them, it's not hard to see that they are going to be the most visible religious representatives. Not to mention they dominate Hive Temnos and have pilgrim trails and shrines all over the planet.

 

House of Faith tells you that they have the backing of the Ecclesiarchy, if you go beyond the words and consider the implications of them. They have close ties with the Ecclesiarchy, they supply thousands of troops to Wars of Faith to curry favour with individual Ecclesiarchs, they have the ear of the Sororitas on Necromunda, they have a grand cathedral at the top of Hive Temnos as well as shrines all over the planet and they have access to at least some of the Ecclesiarchy's stores of relics. Given the nature of the Ecclesiarchy and how enthusiastic it is about stamping out Imperial faiths that it doesn't like, I think it's safe to say that they are fine with all of this. If that's not the backing of the Ecclesiarchy then I don't know what is.

 

If you read enough Necromunda lore you can know exactly how faithful Underhivers would view a member of House Ko'iron. They unlikely to know the difference between them and the Ecclesiarchy and they're unlikely to care. Ko'iron are a noble house, they have almost no presence in the Underhive and as such, most of the details about them is a mystery to underhivers. The Ecclesiarchy is even more of a mystery, because it has close to zero presence in the Underhive (it may actually have zero presence, but I'm leaving the door open in case there's some obscure bit of lore about a shrine somewhere in the Underhive or something). All across the lore, for the last 3 decades the underhives ignorance of anything beyond the underhive and the organisations that operate in it has been made clear. So when a priestess comes down in to the underhive, with both her and her bodyguards covered in religious trappings, performing prayers, rituals and blessings, do you really think these people who are ignorant of almost anything that goes on in the Spire and the wider Imperium are going to say "Wait, you're not the real Ministorum". Of course they aren't, they won't know the differrence and as long as they get blessed they won't care. They're even described it as "her touch akin to the touch of the God Emperor for such worthy souls". It doesn't outright state that the underhivers would consider Ko'iron and the Ecclesiarchy the same thing, but if you know Necromunda lore it's pretty obvious.

 

"Redemption was nearly excommunicated and Redemtionist are outlaws, so saying that Ecclesiarchy has no issues with them is weird to me."

 

I don't think they were nearly excommunicated - as far as I'm aware that would require them to have been part of the Ecclesiarchy to begin with and they never were. But I haven't read the stuff about them in the old RPG so maybe it's in there. Either way though, you're right, they are outlaws. Yet both the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy use them as agents and foot troops (Inquisitor miniature game and Siege of Vraks have info on this if I remember correctly). It's also worth noting that House Ko'iron doesn't care that they are outlawed either, only the Enforcers and Guilds seem to care about that (and by extension, the Imperial House, though I think Imperial House agents will also work alongside them so who knows). But basically, this is a prime example of the hypocrisy of the Imperium at work. The Redemption are not sanctioned and at least on their home world, are an illegal organisation. But multiple Imperial organisations have zero issue with that (or the way they dress) and will include them in their ranks. It might seem weird to you, but to me it seems perfectly 40k for Imperial organisations to say one thing but do the opposite - as is the case with the Redemption.

 

I think at this stage I've provided more than enough evidence that having the bodyguards dressed in religious gear is perfectly in keeping with the lore of House Ko'iron, their relationship with the Ecclesiarchy and the purpose of those models (in regards to them being specifically for trips into the Underhive). You don't have to agree, but there is plenty of lore that supports the way they are dressed.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Not my type, but such wonderful trio!

[crimsondave]

On 12/24/2024 at 2:21 AM, AlanofAngels said:

I wasn't expecting a 40k Emperor model so soon!

Heresy!!!

 

That’s Ravenor’s ultra religious granny.

[beefeb]

nice Inquisitor and acolytes!

[Montford]

Sadly these models just don't appeal to me.