Daemons Rumour: Daemons getting merged with Cult Marines

[Indy Techwisp]

So this rumours been going around for a while and with the LVO reveal of the Emperor's Children codex we may finally have the official confirmation of it happening:

 

Now, as usual this is the first mention of this we've gotten and could maybe be chalked up to an IA style allies thing going on.

However the army showcase image for Emperor's Children has Shalaxi Helbane in it along with the Daemonettes, Fiends and Keeper of Secrets mentioned:

 

In my opinion it's very unlikely that a named character would be in 2 different codexes at once, so this does appear to be another nail in the coffin for Chaos Daemons as a faction being split up.

 

Of course, Daemons could still retain their Index until 11th comes out (like Deathwatch probably are) and there may still be hope for a way to run mixed Daemons past that point via Belakor Detachment shenanigans or something (AoS style Army of Renown maybe?).

 

Feel free to speculate and/or lament about this here in this thread so we can keep the other threads on topic.

[Craig]

We did have daemons in the 8th edition codexes and daemons still got their own book too. Maybe this will be the case again?

[INKS]

I have said my peace in other places here on the B&C. I do not like them getting rid of the deamons codex if that is what is happening. I do not mind, in fact I think it good for them to be wrapped into the various chaos books. But, solo deamons have play in competitive and it would be sad to see that go. They do have grotmas so for 10th they will have that at least. and the models aren't going anywhere. I don't know how Belakor factors in, and of course I could be over reacting. We have not had direct word from GW on what is happening. But I hope to see they wrapped in as well as their solo dex.

[Tokugawa]

Not friendly to wallets of WE, DG and TS players.

[Ahzek451]

Glad to see them wrapped up in the cult books, as it was when I started this game. I would hazard a guess that for the rest of 10th, daemons will function as an army via the existing index alongside the grotmas stuff. So no codex this edition, but still technically a faction via index. And then a complete mystery for 11th onwards. Who knows, maybe they will remain as a faction. Legions get daemons in their books, daemons keep a codex. Having that cake and eating it too. If no codex....yeah what to do with B'lakor is the puzzler. 

[Scribe]

Lame. Daemons should exist as a stand alone.

[jaxom]

32 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

In my opinion it's very unlikely that a named character would be in 2 different codexes at once, so this does appear to be another nail in the coffin for Chaos Daemons as a faction being split up.

 

3 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

Who knows, maybe they will remain as a faction. Legions get daemons in their books, daemons keep a codex. Having that cake and eating it too. If no codex....yeah what to do with B'lakor is the puzzler. 

I think the two book idea is more likely because it lets GW sell more stuff. A pure daemon book is also were one could put more Vasteth (sic) stuff. Ironically, it would also be interesting to have different rules and points for certain daemon units depending on which book they are in.

[Redcomet]

7 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Lame. Daemons should exist as a stand alone.

Who says they can’t do both?

[RolandTHTG]

As I said in the EC thread, I'm not convinced this isn't a battle-sisters-in-inquisition style "included" list. 

i.e. Greater Demon - Demonettes - Fiends as generic unit cards, no special characters or other units.

(yes, the picture shows Shalaxi, but she's a dual-build with the regular greater demon kit, so I could see that as a photographer mistake when told "grab the greater demons")

 

This would allow the demons codex to stand on its own while still having some demons available for EC players. 

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Who says they can’t do both?

 

Yeah I would be fine with that.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They've also included the Dark Eldar that can be fielded in Ynnari in the Eldar codex, yet Dark Eldar are still their own faction.

 

So as far as Daemons not having their own codex, I'd want a more concrete statement on the matter. They easily could've just included the Daemons that you'd normally be able to field as allies.

[Borbarad]

As a WE and mono Khorne deamon player this is interesting news.
 

I do fear that this will make the coming WE releae considerably smaller than I hoped for since they now artificially bolstered the unit count. 

[Borbarad]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

Lame. Daemons should exist as a stand alone.

I can imagine a downloadable army rule and detachement to play mixed deamons. 
 

Hopefully they do it without needing an outcry by the player base this time around. 

[DemonGSides]

5 minutes ago, Borbarad said:

As a WE and mono Khorne deamon player this is interesting news.
 

I do fear that this will make the coming WE releae considerably smaller than I hoped for since they now artificially bolstered the unit count. 

 

You're probably getting a singular hero much like the DG. It'd be an awesome treat if the WE and the TS got a lil more tho, as they are pretty anemic on the Legion side. 

[Lord Abaia]

The idea of splitting up the aligned daemons to the cult legions books seems to make sense, but does raise a nagging question about Be'lakor. Vashtor has a vaguely similar situation in terms of lore and he ended up in the CSM book, and I'm not sure why Be'lakor isn't there too. And also furies since they finally got updated models :(

 

From a purely self-interested point of view, how would this interact with CSM's ability to ally in daemons? My CSM are nurgle-aligned, so buying the Deathguard codex isn't much different than buying a Daemon codex, but, for instance, would Word Bearers players be expected to pick up the Death Guard AND World Eaters books if they want to include nurglings and bloodletters?

[Dark Legionnare]

16 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

You're probably getting a singular hero much like the DG. It'd be an awesome treat if the WE and the TS got a lil more tho, as they are pretty anemic on the Legion side. 

Big, sad, concur.

My kingdom for "people who can attach to TEQ models...." in world eaters.

[Indy Techwisp]

46 minutes ago, Lord Abaia said:

The idea of splitting up the aligned daemons to the cult legions books seems to make sense, but does raise a nagging question about Be'lakor. Vashtor has a vaguely similar situation in terms of lore and he ended up in the CSM book, and I'm not sure why Be'lakor isn't there too. And also furies since they finally got updated models :(

 

From a purely self-interested point of view, how would this interact with CSM's ability to ally in daemons? My CSM are nurgle-aligned, so buying the Deathguard codex isn't much different than buying a Daemon codex, but, for instance, would Word Bearers players be expected to pick up the Death Guard AND World Eaters books if they want to include nurglings and bloodletters?

 

As of right now, I'd say that 10th Ed will leave the Daemon index intact so CSM and Chaos Knights can still pull from it, but once 11th comes around Be'lakor (and maybe the Furies) will find a native home in the CSM Codex and get some kind if special Detachment to steal Daemons from the Mono-God Codexes like base CSM can steal Cult Marines.

[ZeroWolf]

I've also wondered, that if GW wish to keep the chaos Primarch money train going, that Iron Warriors could get the cult codex treatment, but for which God? Well, he isn't a God yet but Vashtorr fits the bill. From a lore perspective, the two have already formed an alliance. Plus, it gives Vashtorr and any forthcoming friends a place to stay while allowing Perty a place.

[TheMawr]

8 minutes ago, Lord Abaia said:

The idea of splitting up the aligned daemons to the cult legions books seems to make sense, but does raise a nagging question about Be'lakor. Vashtor has a vaguely similar situation in terms of lore and he ended up in the CSM book, and I'm not sure why Be'lakor isn't there too. And also furies since they finally got updated models :(

 

Furies actually where removed from 40k since that update happened... probably because the kit also includes non-demonic Fleshhound ducks ( I dont know their name ) and its difficult to imagine anything like those running around on the million worlds in the entire galaxy ( sarcasm, obviously.) or just changing them into an undivided demon creature in the 40k setting.

 

I could see them moving Belakor to CSM codex, most of the time he meddles more with mortals anyway, the daemonic sides always felt more forced ( not the fact he could lead daemons, but rather that they are not undivided daemons, wich ofcourse dont exist in 40k yet, with both Vashtor and Belakor, it seems more likely though its more likely HH gets ruinstorm kits first and at the moment they sadly dont share with 40k.)

 

1 hour ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

They've also included the Dark Eldar that can be fielded in Ynnari in the Eldar codex, yet Dark Eldar are still their own faction.

 

So as far as Daemons not having their own codex, I'd want a more concrete statement on the matter. They easily could've just included the Daemons that you'd normally be able to field as allies.

 

We actually dont know for certain yet, as neither the Eldar nor the Dark eldar codex is out, it will get shakier imho if every new kit is included ( Mandrakes & Drazhar specifically wich, presumably unintended Ynnari armies could suddenly take in their army since 10th edition.) and while they did say "Drukhari for your Ynnari armies" that was not the full sentence, the full sentence was "This codex includes all the Harlequins and Drukhari for your Ynnari armies." and harlequins definitely do not have their own codex, this is their codex, yet they are only called out in that sentence, like drukhari are.

 

I cant imagine them ever putting Drazhar and Karandras available in the same army.. but then.. Karandras isnt being updated now is he.

 

For the record, Im not seriously thinking this.. its a small thought that strays in the back of my head for a while now, that got some volume in the lead up to the EC reveal ( as Haemonculi covens are the one I cant ever see joining an eldar allstar codex, but I could see them becoming EC "tzaangor".. visually.. ignoring the lore, even though psychic awakening did have a snippet alluding to such a choice.) but there was nothing like that.

 

 

 

As always, these are just food for thought things. Not trying to force my opinion on others or anything.

As someone who actually has daemons, Im happy, personally I feel mixed mark daemons should be a rarity versus mono mark ratatouille.. I like the idea of an all Slaanesh force mixing daemons, emperors children, mortals and xenos in that flavor, Same for Tzeentch. ( the 2 my collection is most revolved around, and will be expanded in the future.. my unpainted gryphhound as hellhounds proxies probably joining the one I turned into something more eldar.) and it makes the other 2 more appealing for me too ( I do have some deathguard..)

 

That said, I never played with them ( I actually havent played in a long time, only since 10th edition the rules appeal to me to dip my toes in.) also I dont like it for people who do like their mixed daemons.. but then.. think about it, what would a codex have given you that you now dont have for free ? Or is it more a fear that they dont keep digital rules for mixed daemons in the future ? Lore in the codexes isnt a highlight nowadays anyway.

[TheMawr]

2 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

I've also wondered, that if GW wish to keep the chaos Primarch money train going, that Iron Warriors could get the cult codex treatment, but for which God? Well, he isn't a God yet but Vashtorr fits the bill. From a lore perspective, the two have already formed an alliance. Plus, it gives Vashtorr and any forthcoming friends a place to stay while allowing Perty a place.

 

The Vashtor & Iron warriors link is very similar to Belakor & Word bearers currently.

[siegfriedfr]

Only logical. They are obviously very limited in their ressources to output Codexes in a 3 years timeframe. Imo the board and shareholders are unlikely and unwilling to change the frequency of editions, so rules/lore writers are stuck with 3 years for all codex + 1 or 2 narrative campaigns.

 

Just like Harlequins disappeared into the Aeldari Codex, with the increase of the number of factions available (World Eaters, LoV in 9th, EC in 10th, rumored Dark Mech and Exodites in the future ?), they have to cut corners somewhere.

 

I would argue that "daemons as a faction" makes less sense than "evil marines summoning daemons for battle", which is thematic as hell (pun intended), and instantly creates (much needed) variety within Chaos Marines armies.

 

Also, while not obvious, i have a hunch that they are going to  bring back more primarchs, chaos or loyalists, so they have to make room for that too.

Edited 8 hours ago by siegfriedfr

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, TheMawr said:

We actually dont know for certain yet, as neither the Eldar nor the Dark eldar codex is out, it will get shakier imho if every new kit is included ( Mandrakes & Drazhar specifically wich, presumably unintended Ynnari armies could suddenly take in their army since 10th edition.) and while they did say "Drukhari for your Ynnari armies" that was not the full sentence, the full sentence was "This codex includes all the Harlequins and Drukhari for your Ynnari armies." and harlequins definitely do not have their own codex, this is their codex, yet they are only called out in that sentence, like drukhari are.

I think they did mention that it wouldn't include everything in the Drukhari list, at least when they were speaking of it, only the datasheets that were available to Ynnari armies. I believe they went into more detail on it in the video on the matter.

[Tawnis]

My question would be, if the do split them up into the various Chaos books, which I think is the more likely route they are going to take, were they to still have a Daemon codex as it's own thing, what to they do for those detachments. The assumption had always been that each Chaos god would get their own detachment in daemons, but I can't see them not doing a dedicated daemon detachment in each of the individual books too. There's going to be a lot of overlap and they'll have to make sure to differentiate these enough that they don't just feel like the same list in two different books. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

I'm for putting the daemons in the cult Legion books. You're more likely to find Nurgle Daemons hanging out with Death Guard than you are finding random Tzeentch, Khorne and Slaanesh daemons hanging out together in the lore. That doesn't mean the main daemon codex has to go though. Just more to balance having the same datasheet in two codexes.

 

If they do combine them, I guess I go from having 5k points of Death Guard and 2k points of Nurgle Daemons to having 7k points of Death Guard. It's what Nurgle would want.

[mecanojavi99]

I'm all in favour but IMO if that's how things are going to be going forward I think it would be nice if in 11th the codexes had more appropriate names, because Death Guard + Nurgle Daemons isn't just Death Guard anymore, it's Children of Nurgle or whatever GW decides to call it.

Edited 5 hours ago by mecanojavi99