Daemons Rumour: Daemons getting merged with Cult Marines

[Uprising]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

They're trying to uderstand their sales more (and more cynically stopping people from having one army for multiple systems). Currently a unit of bloodletters can be used in 40k, AoS, HH. If they sell a unit of Bloodletters, how do they know which system it will be for since they moved fantasy to round bases. removing daemons from 40k goes some way to letting them see how p[opular the faction in AoS is. I guess this is why Daemons in HH never got a proper book, just a pdf. 

Excellent point, and probably the reason why this is happening.  Quick side note, daemons can be used in four systems: 40k, AOS, HH, and now The old world (base convertor and movement trays are great).  This is one of the reason why I own a large amount of chaos Daemons (also they are fun to paint and neat).  

[BolterZorro]

When you have only very few different armies to sell, I can understand your point ("stopping people from having one army for multiple systems"). 
But marketing could have encourage people to try a new system for free with those multi game armies because GW has so many armies in several games. For example, if you are a 40K player with a daemon army, you can play an AOS game for free because you already have an army. They this is a excelent gate to let people go into a new game system and then invest in more  armies. The marketing should push such strategies. 

[Nephaston]

1 hour ago, BolterZorro said:

you can play an AOS game for free because you already have an army.

A gorillion shareholders cry out in unison; "No immediate purchases? HERESY!"

[Evil Eye]

On 3/17/2025 at 3:08 AM, HeadlessCross said:

Printed rules needed to stop being a thing more than a decade ago anyway. 

Absolutely not. No. 100% no. For goodness' sake, no.

[Antarius]

On 3/17/2025 at 9:44 AM, Xenith said:

They're trying to uderstand their sales more (and more cynically stopping people from having one army for multiple systems). Currently a unit of bloodletters can be used in 40k, AoS, HH. If they sell a unit of Bloodletters, how do they know which system it will be for since they moved fantasy to round bases. removing daemons from 40k goes some way to letting them see how p[opular the faction in AoS is. I guess this is why Daemons in HH never got a proper book, just a pdf. 

I see where you're coming from, but it's not like that problem really goes away if Daemons are moved to the "cult marine" books? I mean, they'll still be around for Warhammer 40.000 (and Heresy) after all, so it's not like it's going to be possible for GW to figure out if the unit of Bloodletters is intended for a World Eaters, a Blades of Khorne or a TOW/HH Daemons army.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Antarius said:

I see where you're coming from, but it's not like that problem really goes away if Daemons are moved to the "cult marine" books? I mean, they'll still be around for Warhammer 40.000 (and Heresy) after all, so it's not like it's going to be possible for GW to figure out if the unit of Bloodletters is intended for a World Eaters, a Blades of Khorne or a TOW/HH Daemons army.

Baby steps. The bloodletters kit is one of the oldest still in use, envisage a resculpt into a sigmar version and a 40k version, 2 visually distinct units with no cross purpose.

[Casual Heresy]

On 3/23/2025 at 4:52 PM, Mogger351 said:

Baby steps. The bloodletters kit is one of the oldest still in use, envisage a resculpt into a sigmar version and a 40k version, 2 visually distinct units with no cross purpose.

 

Bloodletters can't be one of oldest kits still going. I remember when they were released only a few ye...

 

Oh...

 

Oh no...

 

Wild to think I've seen the release of a brand new army through to its demise as a printed codex. And I've only just turned 30. I finally understand how everyone who lived through the demise of the Squats feels.

[ZeroWolf]

3 minutes ago, Casual Heresy said:

 

Bloodletters can't be one of oldest kits still going. I remember when they were released only a few ye...

 

Oh...

 

Oh no...

 

Wild to think I've seen the release of a brand new army through to its demise as a printed codex. And I've only just turned 30. I finally understand how everyone who lived through the demise of the Squats feels.

Technically you’ve seen it twice as Harlequins were a seperate thing at one point, as were Deathwatch 

[Casual Heresy]

4 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Technically you’ve seen it twice as Harlequins were a seperate thing at one point, as were Deathwatch 

 

First of all how dare you...

 

But yes you are absolutely right, but I suppose I don't think of it the same way since Deathwatch and Harlequins didn't become their own thing until well after I could legally drink. Daemons have been well established in the faction lineup for quite some time now.

 

I would be interested to see how daemon kits are updated in the future. I hope if they do have seperate kits for fantasy and 40k as @Mogger351 suggests, we see models with hell forged tech-bits as an option, like how the Daemons sworn to Vashtorr are described in the last Arks of Omen book.

 

 

[ThePenitentOne]

15 minutes ago, Casual Heresy said:

 

First of all how dare you...

 

But yes you are absolutely right, but I suppose I don't think of it the same way since Deathwatch and Harlequins didn't become their own thing until well after I could legally drink. Daemons have been well established in the faction lineup for quite some time now.

 

I would be interested to see how daemon kits are updated in the future. I hope if they do have seperate kits for fantasy and 40k as @Mogger351 suggests, we see models with hell forged tech-bits as an option, like how the Daemons sworn to Vashtorr are described in the last Arks of Omen book.

 

 

I'm torn on this.

 

I see the advantage of 40k specific kits, and sure, I'd like to see ranged options...

 

But daemons using technology is weird- the realm that is their natural environment is made up of the dreams, nightmares and emotions of sentient species in realspace. What makes them unique among factions is that they don't manufacture tools in the same way; if a Slaaneshi Daemon is riding a chariot, both rider and chariot are products of the same nightmare.

 

Certainly Vashtorr blurs the lines, and perhaps over time the narrative could have him develop one tech-daemon unit aligned with each of the four powers; that unit could be a part of Vastorr's detachment or used as a unit in a standard Daemon force. But if ALL Daemon units suddenly become just another tech-using army, they aren't really Daemons anymore- they'd be more akin to Xenos.

 

Also, while GW IS separating their game systems, I believe that's a mistake. This is an expensive game, and while many players are content enough with the cost that they continue to buy, there are many,many more who would play if they could afford it. Allowing a kit to be used in multiple systems adds value for the money and can entice some of those potential players to take the leap.

 

I have a modest force of Slaanesh Daemons, and I'd planned to expand them. And being a Crusade player, having heard about Path to Glory, I would have looked into AoS. I'm too poor to buy models from each line, but I would have bought the AoS BRB and Battletome required to use my Daemons; I also would likely have expanded the force to be larger than it will be if it's restricted to 40k.

 

I'm not sure how they've manged to convince shareholders that cross-platforming is bad. Do you have any idea how much money I'd spend on HH Admech if they were usable in 40k? Generally, shareholders don't like it when the companies they invest in choose to throw away money making opportunities.

[ZeroWolf]

31 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

I'm torn on this.

 

I see the advantage of 40k specific kits, and sure, I'd like to see ranged options...

 

But daemons using technology is weird- the realm that is their natural environment is made up of the dreams, nightmares and emotions of sentient species in realspace. What makes them unique among factions is that they don't manufacture tools in the same way; if a Slaaneshi Daemon is riding a chariot, both rider and chariot are products of the same nightmare.

 

Certainly Vashtorr blurs the lines, and perhaps over time the narrative could have him develop one tech-daemon unit aligned with each of the four powers; that unit could be a part of Vastorr's detachment or used as a unit in a standard Daemon force. But if ALL Daemon units suddenly become just another tech-using army, they aren't really Daemons anymore- they'd be more akin to Xenos.

 

Also, while GW IS separating their game systems, I believe that's a mistake. This is an expensive game, and while many players are content enough with the cost that they continue to buy, there are many,many more who would play if they could afford it. Allowing a kit to be used in multiple systems adds value for the money and can entice some of those potential players to take the leap.

 

I have a modest force of Slaanesh Daemons, and I'd planned to expand them. And being a Crusade player, having heard about Path to Glory, I would have looked into AoS. I'm too poor to buy models from each line, but I would have bought the AoS BRB and Battletome required to use my Daemons; I also would likely have expanded the force to be larger than it will be if it's restricted to 40k.

 

I'm not sure how they've manged to convince shareholders that cross-platforming is bad. Do you have any idea how much money I'd spend on HH Admech if they were usable in 40k? Generally, shareholders don't like it when the companies they invest in choose to throw away money making opportunities.

Basically they only have a problem with it because it doesn't tell them anything other than demons are selling well. With every other faction it tells them about the game system as well (like tau selling is good for 40k etc).

 

Of course, they could have invested in other fact finding means but sadly that's not the world we live in.

[DemonGSides]

46 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

But daemons using technology is weird- the realm that is their natural environment is made up of the dreams, nightmares and emotions of sentient species in realspace

 

Not sure how it's weird. I don't think I'm alone in worrying about being mulched by unregulated machinery. Just as much fodder for nightmares as the Boogeyman is, especially for an even more technologically developed society that the imperium is. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, ZeroWolf said:

Basically they only have a problem with it because it doesn't tell them anything other than demons are selling well. With every other faction it tells them about the game system as well (like tau selling is good for 40k etc).

 

Of course, they could have invested in other fact finding means but sadly that's not the world we live in.

 

This is a commonly accepted fan explanation, but we don't really know the truth of it for certain. Money is money, and it should only really matter which kits are selling. Whether people are buying those kits to use the models for 40k, AoS, Heresy, or just to shove up their--portal to the realm of Nurgle (or Slaanesh ) shouldn't really matter to GW. But perhaps it does because of their apparent bizarre separation between the mainline game studio and "specialist" studio.

[Aarik]

44 minutes ago, Rain said:

But perhaps it does because of their apparent bizarre separation between the mainline game studio and "specialist" studio.

 

From everything I've heard, this is the real reason. A feud between the departments

[Mogger351]

48 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

This is a commonly accepted fan explanation, but we don't really know the truth of it for certain. Money is money, and it should only really matter which kits are selling. Whether people are buying those kits to use the models for 40k, AoS, Heresy, or just to shove up their--portal to the realm of Nurgle (or Slaanesh ) shouldn't really matter to GW. But perhaps it does because of their apparent bizarre separation between the mainline game studio and "specialist" studio.

If 100% of daemons sold are used in AoS then making 40k rules for them is a waste, so it does matter as it prevents wasted opportunity costs elsewhere.

[Norman Paperman]

I think that sales tracking numbers is a nice plus for them, rather than being a driver of production decisions. If I had to guess, the heart of the matter is that they want the models for each of their settings to be visually distinct. Sure, they'd want an Acolytes of Tzeentch player buy a new set of models if they want to play a Chaos Daemons or Thousand Sons army in 40k, but if they make cool models for both systems that player might want to buy them anyways. Splitting the settings gives them a bit more design space. 

 

I also don't think the number of players who buy Daemons because of the ability to play both systems is big enough that GW is making decisions to try and get into their wallets. That's something to do with their design space and how they want to distinguish the look and feel of their settings. 

[TheMawr]

2 minutes ago, Norman Paperman said:

I think that sales tracking numbers is a nice plus for them, rather than being a driver of production decisions. If I had to guess, the heart of the matter is that they want the models for each of their settings to be visually distinct. Sure, they'd want an Acolytes of Tzeentch player buy a new set of models if they want to play a Chaos Daemons or Thousand Sons army in 40k, but if they make cool models for both systems that player might want to buy them anyways. Splitting the settings gives them a bit more design space. 

 

I also don't think the number of players who buy Daemons because of the ability to play both systems is big enough that GW is making decisions to try and get into their wallets. That's something to do with their design space and how they want to distinguish the look and feel of their settings. 

 

But why are we still having those conversations/theories/discussions when its already disproven that GW wants to split "AoS" models from 40k armies ? They very obviously dont. (not meant harsh)

 

Yes the daemons are just for one detachment, but if they had some plan to remove the daemons from 40k.. this new codex with only 1 detachment featuring them would have been the ideal moment.
The decisions made for exclusions, both daemons and CSM side, are imho very clearly individually creative and/or practical in nature and not universally corparate/mandate'ish. Besides that theorizing/expectations about Chaos Daemons eventually being replaced by individual chaos cult treatment is really not a new topic, it started as far back as the Khorne Daemonkin codex, some of us have been expecting this to happen the moment the last cult marine army would be released, and it did.

 

 

Stepping back from that discussion, Im curious if we find out more about the other inclusions tomorrow already. I could see the only reason for there not being a generic slaanesh herald being that its a resin OOP miniature, But khorne and nurgle do have plastic heralds. Likewise I do think the chariot's absence in emperors children has more to do with the chariot kit's future itself, and the equivalents might still join the cult codexes ( skull cannon for example.)

 

Another thing of interest is if the other 3 have more detachments ( based on their sacred number.) or that the 6 in Emperors children just coincidentally hit their sacred number. If the former, more detachments and a ( potentially ) bigger pool of varied daemon units might also mean more detachments that use daemons.

In contrary to probably everyone else here I do hope one of the (potentially) 9 Thousand sons detachments is allowed to be a Kairos (and/or lord of change)+Tzaangor and daemons one. ( I'd have a viable  army then ;) Birds! I do have sorcerrers too though.)

[ThePenitentOne]

8 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

Basically they only have a problem with it because it doesn't tell them anything other than demons are selling well. With every other faction it tells them about the game system as well (like tau selling is good for 40k etc).

 

Of course, they could have invested in other fact finding means but sadly that's not the world we live in.

The same information can be gleaned from Battletome VS. Codex sales.

 

It doesn't track directly- in god-based based books (which both systems have embraced), you can't tell directly whether people with either army like that army specifically for its Daemonic units vs. the Legion troops or Mortal Followers. But it's a pretty close approximation. You also have the hit count for DLC for both armies to go on. Which may yield more information by looking at whether the detachments used focus on the Daemonic units.

 

On a side note: I gotta get the Slaanesh Endless spell giant head before it disappears- someday there will be a knight conversion that uses it, but I doubt I'll get around to it before the piece disappears. It'll be the knight that I use for my EC allied unit.