Daemons Rumour: Daemons getting merged with Cult Marines

[Dark Shepherd]

Given the reaction to DW there could well be a permanent/new/updated pure Daemons index

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, Dark Shepherd said:

Given the reaction to DW there could well be a permanent/new/updated pure Daemons index

 

I'm expecting Daemons to remain an Index this edition if they get rolled into the Cult Marine Codexes.
That said, unlike Deathwatch I don't think there's much hope for Daemons to return in 11th with a Codex if they don't get one this edition, if only because they could replicate the entire "mixed Daemon army" thing with a Be'lakor Detachment in CSM.

[jaxom]

On 1/25/2025 at 9:57 AM, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I'm expecting Daemons to remain an Index this edition if they get rolled into the Cult Marine Codexes.
That said, unlike Deathwatch I don't think there's much hope for Daemons to return in 11th with a Codex if they don't get one this edition, if only because they could replicate the entire "mixed Daemon army" thing with a Be'lakor Detachment in CSM.

Looks like you were right.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/jl3uxdbu/index-chaos-daemons-updated-datasheets-and-a-new-detachment/
 

Index Daemons is now a live document for this edition and new detachment is Be’lakor based.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So I don’t think pure daemon armies need to necessarily be a thing, as to me it makes much more sense for daemons to be something that are summoned by the mortal chaos followers. But the issue with folding daemons into cult marine codices is the basic CSM. They should be able to summon daemons too. So how does that work and what daemons will they get?

[LSM]

26 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

So I don’t think pure daemon armies need to necessarily be a thing, as to me it makes much more sense for daemons to be something that are summoned by the mortal chaos followers. But the issue with folding daemons into cult marine codices is the basic CSM. They should be able to summon daemons too. So how does that work and what daemons will they get?

 

In the future, Codex: CSM could have a rule (similar to or part of Cult of the Dark Gods) allowing them to pull Daemon units from the Cult Codexes (alongside the Cult Troops).

 

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

Looks like you were right.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/jl3uxdbu/index-chaos-daemons-updated-datasheets-and-a-new-detachment/
 

Index Daemons is now a live document for this edition and new detachment is Be’lakor based.

 

It basically confirms GW was planning to gut them as an independent army and they don't have anything to physically print for them. 

[jaxom]

I’m very curious if the next CSM codex will have a smattering of Daemon datasheets and the Shadow Legion detachment.

[Mogger351]

It seems logical imo. I'm seeing a lot of people huffing the copium that GW changed it's mind and they're scared of the player base. That daemons were never going anywhere and there will be a codex in 11th. That there was no evidence of anything like dividing the army out or soft squatting. Etc.

 

Obviously people are entitled to opinions but it does worry me how blinded some have been.

[ZeroWolf]

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

It seems logical imo. I'm seeing a lot of people huffing the copium that GW changed it's mind and they're scared of the player base. That daemons were never going anywhere and there will be a codex in 11th. That there was no evidence of anything like dividing the army out or soft squatting. Etc.

 

Obviously people are entitled to opinions but it does worry me how blinded some have been.

Makes sense to me that GW might make Demons an online list only without incurring any of the costs that would come from printing out codex that probably doesn't pull in the numbers that other forces do. 

 

On the bright side, not having a physical codex means that demon players don't have a book invalidated day 1 

[gaurdian31]

Honestly, not super happy with this. Demons should have their own codex, they are their own thing. I mean I feel like if that's fine we should just combo all the Imperium units into one codex. Or at least Guard and Marines. This is just disappointing.

[ZeroWolf]

45 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

Honestly, not super happy with this. Demons should have their own codex, they are their own thing. I mean I feel like if that's fine we should just combo all the Imperium units into one codex. Or at least Guard and Marines. This is just disappointing.

To be fair, people have suggested that in the past (bundling up all space marine armies in one massive tome like HH) but there's less financial incentive when it seems like even one of the sm codexs outsells the demon book.

[TheMawr]

6 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

It seems logical imo. I'm seeing a lot of people huffing the copium that GW changed it's mind and they're scared of the player base. That daemons were never going anywhere and there will be a codex in 11th. That there was no evidence of anything like dividing the army out or soft squatting. Etc.

 

Obviously people are entitled to opinions but it does worry me how blinded some have been.

 

To be honest either side of these kind of topics are blinded if they keep to a 100% conviction on such matters. GW is way too fickle a company to think in certainities and we have seen this over and over again on different topics. Anyone who is saying there will be an 11th edition Daemons codex is blind, but so is everyone who is 100% certain there wont be. And despite me not expecting a 11th edition Daemons codex myself either, All we know for certain is that there wont be a 10th edition codex. There is proof/precedence to be found for all sides of the opinion and yet all it really says is how random GW behavior is.

 

Not meant in an argumentative way, Im just as "guilty" of making assumptions on things where you can see the sky falling.. but then, it strangely doesnt. For example units that are legended in AoS for over a year, but even now, when Karanak goes to legends, still are not legends in 40k... despite to my memory them having no relevance in the 40k setting. ( talking about Blue scribes and Epidemus here, while I rarely do 100% conviction, I was pretty convinced they would be legended in 40k too, and am very confused it didnt happen, though its likely they just forgot they where still there to begin with, as I said.. fickle company ;) )

[Scribe]

Man, just another nail in the coffin.

[TheMawr]

59 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

Honestly, not super happy with this. Demons should have their own codex, they are their own thing. I mean I feel like if that's fine we should just combo all the Imperium units into one codex. Or at least Guard and Marines. This is just disappointing.

 

I would start an imperium army the moment they would make a single codex Imperium where you mix and match the units from the imperial subfactions you like. In contrary to what I just said ( not having 100% convictions), this is one thing that will 100% never happen. Spacemarines and Astra Militarum will probably always be two seperate individual entities (and, while it creates two factions that dont appeal to my taste seperately, I can see the why.) the others Id be less inclined to say with certainity, there are some mergers I could see happening there in the future.

 

Chaos has the same problem (though much more intricate), Slaanesh combined force is at least just as much its own thing as a daemon combined force, and then multi-mark chaos spacemarine forces are also their own thing, and Lost and the damned alone or mixed with any of the others and everything inbetween. The "ideal" solution again is either a big sandbox codex Chaos or lots of small codex armies focusing on each sub element with ally rules. Neither of wich is functionally ideal or achievable. So the inbetween solutions will sadly always be liked by some and not liked by others.

 

The thid and last one "suffering" from this to soup or not to soup are Eldar, though at a smaller scale of expanded development of the subelements.

[Xenith]

Another weird decision. Could this be to pad out the unit counts in the god-legion books so they don't have to go making tons of new units for thousands sons and such? At least it's daemons, as it should always have been and not tzaangors. 

 

Feeling sorry for daemons players - but come to heresy, they still kick ass there. 

[Remain_Indoors]

On 3/12/2025 at 2:41 PM, Crimson Longinus said:

So I don’t think pure daemon armies need to necessarily be a thing, as to me it makes much more sense for daemons to be something that are summoned by the mortal chaos followers. But the issue with folding daemons into cult marine codices is the basic CSM. They should be able to summon daemons too. So how does that work and what daemons will they get?

The main argument is for the sake of the people who already have a Daemon army, and to avoid the ill feeling removing an army causes. Age of Sigmar has had a lot of negativity lately thanks to several armies being removed from the game, it would be a shame for it to hit 40K too.

[Dr. Clock]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the failure of Imperial Agents has basically caused the extinction of the 'Just Daemons' Codex. It's too bad for those who've been playing that for so many editions. In principle though, I still prefer Chaos more integrated than separated like they have been for so long.

 

The biggest annoyance to me, however, is the incompleteness of these 'mergers'. Why can't people play 'majority' or even exclusively Daemons lists from their God Codex? Why are marine lists limited to 25% Daemons or 50% only in a single detachment? I understand that they're intended to be 'mostly Heretic Astartes' lists, but I kinda like the idea of making a list with just like 10 Berzerkers being followed around by a legion of Bloodletters. It makes the marines feel more interesting and rare when they're actually outnumbered by other stuff in the list sometimes. 

 

I do think we'd have been better off if they'd just never tried to break Daemons off into their own Codex and they had just been baked into God-specific books up front. But they've built a community around the 'Just Daemons' identity now and Be'Lakor exists, and he's not likely going anywhere... Of course it's always crummy to feel like you're being squatted... so I could definitely see Be'Lakor becoming essentially 'Ynnari but for Chaos' from a rules perspective next edition... He could just be a mandatory unit for a detachment that allows you to take all daemons, from any God. Of course, if all the daemons rules are buried in their respective codexes that would become cost-prohibitive since it'd be a 5-codex endeavour to include all 4 gods... but if they include just 1-2 Daemon datasheets per God in the CSM 'dex as well it'd likely be... fine?

 

Anyway - solidarity with those who feeling put out by this. I'm excited to get my 'Letters and Hounds out of storage, but wishing it didn't have to come somewhat at the expense of another player base...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Docor.

 

 

[ZeroWolf]

3 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the failure of Imperial Agents has basically caused the extinction of the 'Just Daemons' Codex. It's too bad for those who've been playing that for so many editions. In principle though, I still prefer Chaos more integrated than separated like they have been for so long.

 

The biggest annoyance to me, however, is the incompleteness of these 'mergers'. Why can't people play 'majority' or even exclusively Daemons lists from their God Codex? Why are marine lists limited to 25% Daemons or 50% only in a single detachment? I understand that they're intended to be 'mostly Heretic Astartes' lists, but I kinda like the idea of making a list with just like 10 Berzerkers being followed around by a legion of Bloodletters. It makes the marines feel more interesting and rare when they're actually outnumbered by other stuff in the list sometimes. 

 

I do think we'd have been better off if they'd just never tried to break Daemons off into their own Codex and they had just been baked into God-specific books up front. But they've built a community around the 'Just Daemons' identity now and Be'Lakor exists, and he's not likely going anywhere... Of course it's always crummy to feel like you're being squatted... so I could definitely see Be'Lakor becoming essentially 'Ynnari but for Chaos' from a rules perspective next edition... He could just be a mandatory unit for a detachment that allows you to take all daemons, from any God. Of course, if all the daemons rules are buried in their respective codexes that would become cost-prohibitive since it'd be a 5-codex endeavour to include all 4 gods... but if they include just 1-2 Daemon datasheets per God in the CSM 'dex as well it'd likely be... fine?

 

Anyway - solidarity with those who feeling put out by this. I'm excited to get my 'Letters and Hounds out of storage, but wishing it didn't have to come somewhat at the expense of another player base...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Docor.

 

 

Best case scenario would be to keep index: chaos demons operating. Con here would be no printed codex of course but the plus would be a free legal way to get the rules for the army.

[HeadlessCross]

8 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

Best case scenario would be to keep index: chaos demons operating. Con here would be no printed codex of course but the plus would be a free legal way to get the rules for the army.

Printed rules needed to stop being a thing more than a decade ago anyway. 

[01RTB01]

3 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Printed rules needed to stop being a thing more than a decade ago anyway. 

Again, that's simply opinion. There are a chunk of us that still like having printed rules. I'd much prefer to flip through a book than scroll on my phone.

 

Comparing datasheets on the apps is very difficult. Being able to flip from one page to another in a book and see multiple things simultaneously is doable. Apps, can't be done. Don't be so quick to write off printed rules.

[Nephaston]

Well, clearly the solution is to have codecies and battletomes come unbound and in collectible clear sleeve binders; Buying one gets you the binder, the codex pages, and a code for the app. Once the inevitable balance patch comes you just swap the respective sheet for a new sheet, either printed at home, or printed at Warhammer™ Stores™ using official™ warhammer™ paper™ for a small fee™. Or they can send them out like they do their transfer sheets. That way people get their app, their paper, an opportunity to bind their own book if they want to, and GW gets another avenue to nickel and dime their customers with starter binders, regular binders, premium binders, and limited edition collectors binders.

 

Behold, the labour of ten millenia in MSpaint. Official Warhammer™ Plastek™ Binders™

 

 

[ZeroWolf]

3 hours ago, Nephaston said:

Well, clearly the solution is to have codecies and battletomes come unbound and in collectible clear sleeve binders; Buying one gets you the binder, the codex pages, and a code for the app. Once the inevitable balance patch comes you just swap the respective sheet for a new sheet, either printed at home, or printed at Warhammer™ Stores™ using official™ warhammer™ paper™ for a small fee™. Or they can send them out like they do their transfer sheets. That way people get their app, their paper, an opportunity to bind their own book if they want to, and GW gets another avenue to nickel and dime their customers with starter binders, regular binders, premium binders, and limited edition collectors binders.

 

Behold, the labour of ten millenia in MSpaint. Official Warhammer™ Plastek™ Binders™

 

 

Coming Soon to Warhammer Community two weeks on Tuesday!

[Ulfast]

If this is true, that chaos daemons will not get a codex this edition and in the next edition, will disappear as a stand alone army I wonder why? Because my understanding is that chaos daemons are a popular army. Lot of people has them and enjoy both painting and playing with them. Why let them go? Other armies as grey knights, GSC and Ad mech is much less popular and should disappear before them if it´s just sell numbers. So why is GW taking this road? I don´t get it. 

[Xenith]

They're trying to uderstand their sales more (and more cynically stopping people from having one army for multiple systems). Currently a unit of bloodletters can be used in 40k, AoS, HH. If they sell a unit of Bloodletters, how do they know which system it will be for since they moved fantasy to round bases. removing daemons from 40k goes some way to letting them see how p[opular the faction in AoS is. I guess this is why Daemons in HH never got a proper book, just a pdf. 

[Mogger351]

13 minutes ago, Ulfast said:

If this is true, that chaos daemons will not get a codex this edition and in the next edition, will disappear as a stand alone army I wonder why? Because my understanding is that chaos daemons are a popular army. Lot of people has them and enjoy both painting and playing with them. Why let them go? Other armies as grey knights, GSC and Ad mech is much less popular and should disappear before them if it´s just sell numbers. So why is GW taking this road? I don´t get it. 

Nobody really has those metrics to validate what you're saying first of all. Tournament attendance rates are anecdotal, stock levels on gws site are equally anecdotal at best. Daemons have been in the game 25 years, gsc ~9 and admech ~11 iirc. To add to that daemons are cross system so it's not always a "40k" army, and they're historically easier to paint and less of a horde (i.e. expensive) than GSC or Admech.

 

Beyond that, they're having a design direction shift to have "god books" as per their other game system and was well received there.

 

This also isn't a new concept ala khorne daemonkin, which if 8th hadn't happened as it did, may have led to this outcome a lot earlier.

 

The final "why" is their current obsession with linearity of sales. They want certain kits to be for certain armies in certain systems, so they can work out the relative value for investment.

Edited March 17 by Mogger351