Horus Heresy Angron Transfigured + Lotara Sarrin

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 hours ago, Fire Golem said:

I think he’s a great midpoint between the mortal model and the 40k model, showing him as relatively recently transformed. The only thing that doesn’t work for that is why are his weapons more corrupted than the 40k model ones?

 

10 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

The head/face is whatever, not my favorite but I see what they were going for as an in-between of the earlier 30k Angron and 40k's uber-Bloodthirster-esque Angron.

 

15 hours ago, INKS said:

This does make me excited to see the others in a middle deamon state

 

This kinda thing got brought up with plastic fulgrim, that the plastic one was more corrupted as it was 10000 years later and all that.

 

Daemons don't exist in time and don't get "corrupted". Mortal things get corrupted the longer they're exposed to the warp; daemons are an emotionally charged event given form, and once that event creates them, they've always existed. They can choose how they want to look if they have enough awareness (which usually comes with power), but ya, they don't age into looking more chaosy or monstrous or whatever. And daemon princes are daemons; going from mortal to immortal is like....the entire point of that reward. 

 

So ya. There's no chronological progression to looking "more daemony/corrupted" for daemons. They either choose to look different or wear the shape that best represents them as a concept if thats not their thing/are too primal. Mortarion rocks up to the siege looking like 40k mortarion because that represents him and he's going with it. Fulgrim transforms all the time to suit his ego. The end of empires showed up as a barbarian. Angron is described as an elemental force in the novels, often as a shadow given form or a fiery comet as he's moving. Hes so enslaved to rage that there's no room to even understand that he's the biggest slave. He's not voluntarily shape changing like fulgrim; he's going to embody his aspect forever. And that aspect has been pretty well shown in media and has been consistent, with the iconic collected visions (which is heresy era) art as the template. 

 

The problem of course is that the 40k team used all of that for the plastic model, and they don't like sharing design elements. It's basically first come first served, with resin fulgrim and plastic angron eating first.

[Allart01]

I don’t hate the model, but I feel that it was completely unnecessary. I see it as the ultimate result of the no cross-compatibility policy enforced by GW; it HAD to be different for difference’s sake, so they had to come up with a never before heard-of idea and design for a “transitioning” daemon prince. 
One may like it or not, but I for one find it quite forced.

[Joe]

You're welcome to see it that way - however, resin versions of the Daemon Primarchs were planned well over half-a-decade before that "policy" (and I say that loosely, as it's community inference rather than a factual thing that anyone has had eyes on) came into be. I can remember them discussing doing them at some of the early open days before we were even told explicitly they'd be happening in 2019.

[Allart01]

58 minutes ago, Joe said:

You're welcome to see it that way - however, resin versions of the Daemon Primarchs were planned well over half-a-decade before that "policy" (and I say that loosely, as it's community inference rather than a factual thing that anyone has had eyes on) came into be. I can remember them discussing doing them at some of the early open days before we were even told explicitly they'd be happening in 2019.

I don’t really see any big contradiction in the timeline here.

Magnus the Red came out in plastic in 2016, during 7th edition - the one where you had a bigger crossover for most of FW’s pieces, whereas the separation began after 8th, when they started to “Legends” and Horus Heresy got its own ruleset. A lot seems to have changed during that time (rip Cyraxus). The plans you refer to are later than that, and anyway, the first resin daemon primarch came out only last year.

Perhaps I am misremembering something, forgive me if I did.

 

Ps: I still fail to see the point of having two different Angrons, economic reasons aside. The lore justification, however, seems to be very recent and was never mentioned in any source material, including the whole Horus Heresy series, which concluded only last year. That’s a relevant sign to me.

Edited February 15 by Allart01

[Rain]

Since when is there no cross compatibility? I use 2 Deimos pattern Rhinos as Chaos Rhinos and a Land Raider Proteus with the assault ramp and appropriate options as a Chaos Land Raider. I use a Contemptor as a Helbrute. Plenty of people use the praetor with the big axe as a Master of Executions.
 

Granted loyalists have very little cross compatibility, but Chaos do, often with very minimal or no conversion required.

[Redcomet]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

You're welcome to see it that way - however, resin versions of the Daemon Primarchs were planned well over half-a-decade before that "policy" (and I say that loosely, as it's community inference rather than a factual thing that anyone has had eyes on) came into be. I can remember them discussing doing them at some of the early open days before we were even told explicitly they'd be happening in 2019.

Plans can change. Having labor intensive resin primarchs whey could have made a plastic version for both systems is just a waste of resources. Resources that could have gone towards badly needed models

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Since when is there no cross compatibility? I use 2 Deimos pattern Rhinos as Chaos Rhinos and a Land Raider Proteus with the assault ramp and appropriate options as a Chaos Land Raider. I use a Contemptor as a Helbrute. Plenty of people use the praetor with the big axe as a Master of Executions.
 

Granted loyalists have very little cross compatibility, but Chaos do, often with very minimal or no conversion required.

Internally GW doesn’t cross pollinate models between the main studio and SDS.

[01RTB01]

39 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Plans can change. Having labor intensive resin primarchs whey could have made a plastic version for both systems is just a waste of resources. Resources that could have gone towards badly needed models

Internally GW doesn’t cross pollinate models between the main studio and SDS.

In fairness, resin primarchs have been the sole responsibility for Sam Egan for years. It's his job to do. 

 

It's not a waste of resources either from their perspective. As an insanely successful multinational, etc, etc, what they're doing is clearly working.

 

What we perceive as 'badly needed', they'll get round to. Ultimately they can't release everything simultaneously so we just have to wait. Frustrating on some aspects but it is what it is. Some of us have waited 30 years for an Emperor's Children range, plastic noise marines etc. 

[lansalt]

5 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Angron is described as an elemental force in the novels, often as a shadow given form or a fiery comet as he's moving. Hes so enslaved to rage that there's no room to even understand that he's the biggest slave.

Daemon prince Angron portrayal is inconsistent through the HH books. At first he's capable of having conversations and even restraining himself sometimes. Like when he wanted to be the first to land in Terra before Mortarion, and Horus told him no. Or giving terms of surrender to the defenders in Saturnine before attacking.

But since Echoes of Eternity, he's supposed to have always been incapable of reasoning and speech because he's enraged all the time thanks to being a Khorne daemon. But other Khorne daemons like Ka'banda have no problem plotting schemes and fighting tactically when it suits them.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

It’s totally fine to have different artists interpretations of the same character, and different materials/modeling levels as well. Demon Primarchs are cool. They have existed in the Lore for decades. There’s no reason we can’t have different visions of them. Throughout the life of this setting there have always been different styles of art. John Blanche didn’t look like Mark Gibbons, Karl Koponski doesnt look like Wayne England. The more the merrier. 

[INKS]

5 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

 

 

This kinda thing got brought up with plastic fulgrim, that the plastic one was more corrupted as it was 10000 years later and all that.

 

Daemons don't exist in time and don't get "corrupted". Mortal things get corrupted the longer they're exposed to the warp; daemons are an emotionally charged event given form, and once that event creates them, they've always existed. They can choose how they want to look if they have enough awareness (which usually comes with power), but ya, they don't age into looking more chaosy or monstrous or whatever. And daemon princes are daemons; going from mortal to immortal is like....the entire point of that reward. 

 

So ya. There's no chronological progression to looking "more daemony/corrupted" for daemons. They either choose to look different or wear the shape that best represents them as a concept if thats not their thing/are too primal. Mortarion rocks up to the siege looking like 40k mortarion because that represents him and he's going with it. Fulgrim transforms all the time to suit his ego. The end of empires showed up as a barbarian. Angron is described as an elemental force in the novels, often as a shadow given form or a fiery comet as he's moving. Hes so enslaved to rage that there's no room to even understand that he's the biggest slave. He's not voluntarily shape changing like fulgrim; he's going to embody his aspect forever. And that aspect has been pretty well shown in media and has been consistent, with the iconic collected visions (which is heresy era) art as the template. 

 

The problem of course is that the 40k team used all of that for the plastic model, and they don't like sharing design elements. It's basically first come first served, with resin fulgrim and plastic angron eating first.

Fair enough, but as for my point is that we are likely to get a different looking middle ground as we've now seen from these models. And I look forward to that middle ground. If the 40k version is already super deamon form or whatever you'd like to call it then a more human like mixed version is likely to see 30k. At least for some of them - Mortarian for example.

[Robbienw]

They are demon princes guys.  They don’t become more corrupted at time goes on.  Once they have become a demon they have reached the ultimate level of corruption.

 

They can appear differently though, they aren’t locked into a permanent look.

[Mogger351]

30 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

They are demon princes guys.  They don’t become more corrupted at time goes on.  Once they have become a demon they have reached the ultimate level of corruption.

 

They can appear differently though, they aren’t locked into a permanent look.

It's important to note the 30k angron had never been banished, hes not had full warp exposure in that way. Time does not exist in the warp, true. But neither did Angron at that time. He was fresh off the ascension kitchen and learning his limits as he further twisted.

[lansalt]

IIRC Angron was shot to atoms by the Palace defences in Saturnine (?) and regenerated again later

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 hours ago, lansalt said:

Daemon prince Angron portrayal is inconsistent through the HH books. At first he's capable of having conversations and even restraining himself sometimes. Like when he wanted to be the first to land in Terra before Mortarion, and Horus told him no. Or giving terms of surrender to the defenders in Saturnine before attacking.

But since Echoes of Eternity, he's supposed to have always been incapable of reasoning and speech because he's enraged all the time thanks to being a Khorne daemon. But other Khorne daemons like Ka'banda have no problem plotting schemes and fighting tactically when it suits them.

 

Sure, let's call him 90% uncontrollable rage, ignoring the special events (nuceria dying to break his rage in saturnine) or insane mischaracterization (lost and the damn basically butchered every character). Doesn't make him more likely to reconfigure his form.

 

8 hours ago, INKS said:

Fair enough, but as for my point is that we are likely to get a different looking middle ground as we've now seen from these models. And I look forward to that middle ground. If the 40k version is already super deamon form or whatever you'd like to call it then a more human like mixed version is likely to see 30k. At least for some of them - Mortarian for example.

 

Are we? Fulgrim is basically the same but with bigger wings and a nicer looking face. Angron is angron. There's clearly no targeted push to make them look like a middle ground. Magnus canonically can look however he wants, even before ascension. Mortarion is supposed to look the same, so we'll see if/how he turns out

[INKS]

21 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Sure, let's call him 90% uncontrollable rage, ignoring the special events (nuceria dying to break his rage in saturnine) or insane mischaracterization (lost and the damn basically butchered every character). Doesn't make him more likely to reconfigure his form.

 

 

Are we? Fulgrim is basically the same but with bigger wings and a nicer looking face. Angron is angron. There's clearly no targeted push to make them look like a middle ground. Magnus canonically can look however he wants, even before ascension. Mortarion is supposed to look the same, so we'll see if/how he turns out

I guess you and I just disagree, because yes I do think they look different and are sort of a middle ground.

[Brother Kraskor]

I don't know if there is any lore to support this, but could there be some suggestion that the daemon primarchs took these forms not because their own corruption was incomplete, but because their mortal followers' was? As a way of carefully finally ushering their legions down that road, while still being at least somewhat recognisable as their former selves?

Edited February 16 by Brother Kraskor

[gideon stargreave]

Should have been this guy.

 

 

[Mandragola]

I quite like these but not as much as Fulgrim Transfigured. Fulgrim makes me want to do an EC army, and the new 40K models would be perfect for it. Angron doesn’t. 
 

I think the problem with Angron is that he ends up being a bit too similar to a Bloodthirster. He’s another massive angry thing with wings, armour, sharp things and loads of skulls, with no personality beyond being angry. Before he’s a daemon there all his tragic history but that seems to get lost when he ascends and he ends up as a bit of a one-liner, at least to me. 

 

Fulgrim, Magnus and Mortarion are much more distinct from Keepers of secrets and so on. They look different and they do different stuff.

 

I agree with others that Sarin isn’t a great representation of her personality, as we hear about it in the books. To be fair, I think she probably would look a bit more like this is she was ever on a battlefield, and that’s the point of having a miniature to use in games. But part of the point of her is she’s basically the last person in the entire legion who’d be sent to a battle. 
 

They’ve made her a model because she’s a fan favourite, and that’s cool. But it’s hard to imagine the scenario where she’d actually be present. 

 

Sarin is the one of the first female models for 30k though, and that’s nice to see - particularly in a position of authority. 
 

Maybe this means they’ll do models of more characters from the BL books. That would be fun to see. 
 

 

Edited February 16 by Mandragola

[Xenith]

13 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Maybe this means they’ll do models of more characters from the BL books. That would be fun to see. 

 

Part of the fallout from Chapterhouse was 'no rules without models' and I'm wondering if that might extend to 'no lore or characters without models' - to head off other people from making models, as would be their right. It explains why we see so many insignificant/new black library characters getting made into models by GW. I'm wondering how far this might go! 

[Captain Coolpants]

That's such a busy model! Its awesome, but also awful at the same time. I'd have never felt up to painting that thing 

[LSM]

4 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Part of the fallout from Chapterhouse was 'no rules without models' and I'm wondering if that might extend to 'no lore or characters without models' - to head off other people from making models, as would be their right. It explains why we see so many insignificant/new black library characters getting made into models by GW. I'm wondering how far this might go! 

 

I don't think the Chapterhouse decision would extend that far.

 

That was more that GW was selling a game, with rules, but without selling (all) the pieces to play that game. As such, third parties could fill the void by selling the "missing pieces".

 

There's a lot more solid law around the use of concepts from a book, than niche rules in a game. (Now if a character had rules without a model, they should be fair game. I'm not sure if the "they're in a range rotation, promise" fig-leaf is enough to protect GW from other people making, for example, Huron Blackheart models.)

 

//

 

20 hours ago, Rain said:

Since when is there no cross compatibility? I use 2 Deimos pattern Rhinos as Chaos Rhinos and a Land Raider Proteus with the assault ramp and appropriate options as a Chaos Land Raider. I use a Contemptor as a Helbrute. Plenty of people use the praetor with the big axe as a Master of Executions.
 

Granted loyalists have very little cross compatibility, but Chaos do, often with very minimal or no conversion required.

 

That's just proxying. One is not playing a Contemptor, they're letting its model stand in for a Helbrute, etc. I could do the same with a piece of cheese - though it would raise substantially more eyebrows.

 

Edited February 16 by LSM

[Robbienw]

It’s not proxying with the Rhino or the Land Raider.

[Rain]

31 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

That's just proxying. One is not playing a Contemptor, they're letting its model stand in for a Helbrute, etc. I could do the same with a piece of cheese - though it would raise substantially more eyebrows.

 

The Contemptor as Helbrute is admittedly arguably a proxy, but Deimos Rhinos as…Rhinos? It’s a slightly different mark of the same tank.

Even the Contemptor example is *far* off from a piece of cheese and I think you know that. Anyone remotely familiar with the game would immediately recognize what the Contemptor is “supposed to be” and that it’s a Helbrute and not say, a Maulerfiend. A Helbrute is a Chaos dreadnaught, and a World Eaters Contemptor is a… Chaos Dreadnaught. Which is the point, easy recognition for the opponent of what each unit is. I see it as closer to a conversion than a proxy.

[LSM]

The Deimos Rhino and Proteus Land Raider kits come with a number of options not permitted by the 40k rules for Rhinos and Land Raiders. The hull mounted Heavy Flamers/Lascannons, the majority of the pintle weapons, etc. 

 

They are very good proxies, especially if you restrict yourself to the options that are available in 40k. No one should bat an eye at their use. But those kits do not have the rules support that would make them "cross compatible". 

 

//

 

5 hours ago, Mandragola said:

I think the problem with Angron is that he ends up being a bit too similar to a Bloodthirster. He’s another massive angry thing with wings, armour, sharp things and loads of skulls, with no personality beyond being angry. Before he’s a daemon there all his tragic history but that seems to get lost when he ascends and he ends up as a bit of a one-liner, at least to me. 

 

Fulgrim, Magnus and Mortarion are much more distinct from Keepers of secrets and so on. They look different and they do different stuff.

 

 

Vis-a-vis this sort of thing, the original epic Daemon Primarchs as seen amongst their gods' Greater Daemons:

 

 

Edited February 16 by LSM

[Rain]

Yeah, so I only used 40k-appropriate options when building them. HB, Lascannons, and assault ramp on the LR. Pintle bolter and havoc launcher on Rhinos, etc. The kits are 40k compatible as they do not require any *outside* bits to make 40k legal vehicles. You just have to pick 40k legal options when building.

 

The Demon Prince is a dual kit that builds an AoS or 40k Demon Prince. Doesn’t mean that one or the other isn’t valid.

 

Anyway, this is a mostly semantic argument. One man’s “dual use model” is another man’s “proxy.”