Emperors Children Emperor's Children Codex Discussion.

[Prot]

So instead of rumours, etc, I wanted to have a place where we can talk about the good and  bad about playing this codex. In other words, hopefully a gaming thread. (Hobby stuff more than welcome though.)

 

Firstly my concerns. I'm going to assume anyone reading this has seen all the dataslates now as they are very much out there to see. 

 

So in total there are 22 dataslates. 5 of them are daemons, and I think... 7 are unique/new to this book. (I had this all written down but I'm not at my desk.. so I might have some of this wrong.)

 

This right away gave me a red flag. What we're missing is: Preds, Vindicators, Forgefiend (Odd since Mauler is there), Helbrutes, Cultists, etc. This is tough for me because I play weekly and one of the tiny complaints I have about World Eaters is missing what I consider 'basics':

 

- Bikes, raptors, warptalons. (I even pull out Defilers once in a while with my Black Legion.)

 

Also the elite unit only has one build. This kind of surprised me as the World Eaters have the dual kit. Maybe something else is coming? But probably not for a long time.

 

So that is one of my concerns, BUT the playstyle is cool, and potentially more diverse than World Eaters (since EC will have a 'real' shooting phase comparatively speaking.)

 

But at the end of the day, this is the first Chaos codex for 10th. Which means they could all be getting stripped down (except Death Guard which I assume is safe.)

 

What do you folks think? Am I over thinking this? Is the loss of these items going to be made up by the codex  in other ways?

 

I personally think I'm starting with the heavy transport detachment. I think it will be tough for me to reach 2K points until the greater range comes out.

 

Also curious if anyone sees a need to buy more than one box?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited February 27 by Dr_Ruminahui
Added EC tag

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I agree with your responses - I'm not sure why they stripped things down as far as they did.  There are numerous units (Hellbrutes, bikes, etc) that have a direct historical connection to prior specifically EC models and units (sonic dreads and Doom Rider, specifically), and other modern units that fit very well aesthetically with the EC (the current cultist box).  So, while I understand their need to pare back the CSM origin units to allow EC to have their own play style and character, I think they over did it.  Further, from a design perspective, including select demon units in the codex and then restricting them to one detachment is a mistake - IMHO it should either have been a full blown melding of all the slanneshi demons and the EC, or a "refers to" ruleset where the demons remain outside the codex but the detachment refers to and adopts the units from the demons index.

 

Given the removal of so many units, I've decided (as I said in my army thread) to continue my since-8th "EC" army as CSM as it allows me to keep all my stuff, though I'll likely be stealing stuff like Maulerfiends to use in the new EC codex army I'll be starting.  So, I'm not sure how soon I'll delve into play of actual EC - doesn't help that I think the CSM army and detachments rules are generally more powerful than the EC ones I've seen - certainly I prefer the Renegade Raiders version of "assault with benefits" to that of EC's Thrill Seekers.

 

Ultimately, how the EC codex plays will boil down to how it plays as a whole, and looking at the number of units and their individual datasheets only provides an incomplete picture.  How it comes together on the table will have to be seen - and in terms of power level, I think EC are at an inherent disadvantage at the moment as their natural comparator, the CSM, have one of the best army lists in a long time (IMHO since the famed 3.5 codex).

 

Anyway, I'm linking some thoughts I had about the list in the EC rumours thread, based on the datacards leaked so far.

 

I can see someone easily wanting to buy 2 boxes, though that would give you more noise marines (and codexes) than you probably have use for.  That said, 3 Noise Marine units, 4 Infractor/Tormentor and 2 Lord Exultants definitely seems useful (especially the non-noise units - I'm still not sure on noise marines, given their point-blank ranges now).  Personally, the excess noise marine unit and codex make a 2nd box not a good deal for me (especially since the box gives me more than enough to work on until the normal release), but if you are someone who will sell the extras and paints quickly, having more now might be of value to you.  Personally, I'm just hoping I manage to grab one box - I know that these type of "pre releases" can be hot items, and I suspect this one will be even more so.

Edited February 27 by Dr_Ruminahui

[HeadlessCross]

Exultants need an errata to join Faultless Blades. The PA dudes are legit just easily killed caddies for him to reroll wounds. That said at least they can hit above their weight class a bit with that rerolling wounds from the squad. 

 

Speaking of PA dudes, I'm not impressed with the melee ones. There's no D2 natively outside the Exultant being attached and the Champ's Power Sword isn't even S5. They're a scouting piece and that's about it. Range ones have regular ol' terrible Bolters but at least they Infiltrate, so you can shove a mildly expensive 10 man squad with 2 Plasmas and 2 Meltas up front. 

 

Kakophonist needs some work. The sword needs to at least be D2 since otherwise you might as well just go the double pistol route and attach him to Noise Marines. His buff is great with them. His buff with Terminators is frankly laughable and not noteworthy unless you NEED to get an Enhancement over to them for some reason. Will I do one with Terminators though? Probably for funsies, but I'm not going to pretend it's actually good like the EC subreddit is. 

 

Sorcerer was one of the few "ported" units and it straight up trash. 

 

Faultless Blades maybe need another attack. As a six man, they can kill a lot of the smaller 3+ save vehicles with no help from Lucius. Lucius himself is awesome. 

 

Bunch of complaints about Noise Marines online, but I think they're actually pretty good. They weren't ever anti-tank to begin with, so the complaints there are unfounded when y'all need to petition GW to give back some units anyway. 

 

Maulerfiends are baller and have a way better rule than the regular ones for some reason. 

 

Not gonna lie, I think the codex, released as is, is actually a really poor effort from GW. 

[Prot]

Yea I’m thinking 2 boxes would be nice to fill the troops up, max the Noise marines, and have some bits left over.  I do think the ranged troops seem very decent in numbers, assuming the points aren’t ridiculous.  
 

as far as the sorcerer…. I kind of thought he had some play. The mortal wound damage and…. Can he get Precision by being with the troops? I kind of like that theme, or with noise marines because the range if I recall is similar. 
 

honestly the rules and limitations do kind of turn me off.  My world eaters and Black Legion seem to have more replay value. I have grown addicted to Master of Execution with Berzerkers, cleaving HQs down with the Berzerker Glaive and fights first. Shockingly I didn’t see a way to get this combo with EC which I thought would leverage fights first a lot more. 
 

also, and this might be nitpicking but the Flawless Blades really could have been a dual kit especially with such a small codex. And I feel like WE. Can leverage a lot of the EC rules at more opportune times of the game. One example would be getting advance and charge, then changing it out for fight from death and sustained hits. 
 

Lucius feels like a Khârn. I don’t mind the Kackophoni, but he better be pointed like an apothecary approximately. He just has such limited use and with out deep strike ( accident?) I’m not loving him with Termies which aren’t that hit to begin with. 

 

overall I love the models. I love some of the references back to second edition style art in the figs. I think both troops are good to great and the EC rhino is definitely going to see play. 
 

still a but in the fence. I’m nit a huge fan if primarchs especially if they don’t help the army and are super costly on the table.  
 

finally I’ll say I do really like both DP builds. I think if you don’t want to play Fulgrim then at least 1 is in your list.  

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I would field the Sorcerer if it was as you said (so, the CSM version) however, it (like most of the CSM carry overs) have slightly different rules than their CSM cousins.

 

So, for the Sorcerer, instead of conferring a defensive -1 to hit, it gives Benefits from Cover, which is strictly worse.  And, instead of handing out mortal wounds, its equivalent power gives the target unit -2 to move and charge rolls (so, probably worse except in specific circumstances.

 

Other rules differences include the rhino loosing self-repair, but instead letting it advance and still kick out troops and them able to shoot (but not charge), which is probably better.  Maulerfiend now has +1 to hit if injured plus +1 to wound if below half strength, which seems better than the movement related ability in CSM.  Terminators can now reroll charge rolls against the target they shot at (if they only shoot at one unit) - but I'm not sure what they give up from CSM for that.  Spawn are better, now having an OC and a reactive move rather than the tiny OC deny bubble (and no OC) of the CSM version.  Helldrake has, I'm told, straight different stats - I'm not familiar enough with it or looked myself to confirm.  The Demon prince abilities also look different, but another unit I'm not really familiar with and can't set out from memory how - I can check when I'm home with my CSM codex.  Do note, unlike with CSM, we don't get a cost break on the foot one as both it and the winged version are (currently) the same price.

 

So, long story short, you can't assume the units you are familiar with work exactly like you expect them to, but need to read them to figure out how they work in EC.

 

That said, I agree with your view of the tormentors - I'll probably field at least 2 minimum units of them as objective grabbers, plus possibly other full sized units for shooting purposes.  That said, their "sticky objectives" is worse than the cultists whose role they replace - cultists "stickyness" is only removed at the end of the turn, tormentors at the end of the phase - so an opponent can move onto an objective, de-sticky it, then charge off of it whereas with cultists they would need to forgo the charge and stay there to the end of turn to remove it.

 

Infractors, I'm not sure about - they have similar rules and stats to melee Legionaires, but without the 2 heavy melee weapons or dark pacts (or, for Renegade Raiders, the -1 AP to targets on objectives)... plus they don't have access to heavy weapons, for those who forgo melee power for versatility.  Plus (as noted) the "champions" combat options are most limited - while one can swap their plasma pistol for the extra shots of the screamer, they have no heavy melee/power fist option and their power weapon is oddly only S 4.  This means that the Rapture Lash, with identical stats except 50% more attacks and slightly weaker AP, is better against everything except 2+ save with no invulnerable, where they are exactly the same... so, at least until that is fixed (next codex, maybe?) the lash is strictly the better choice.  Note, the same thing applies for the tormentor champion.  They are, however, a bit faster than legionaires, which is something.  And, of course, unit wide [precision] - never having played with (or against) any real sources of [precision], I can't say how powerful that is... I would guess "somewhat, but obviously situational".

 

In regard to the Lord Exultant, its basically a CSM lord with [Lethal Hits] as a unit buff instead of the once-per-round cheaper stratagem.  For me, that's better, as I always forget to use stratagems with my CSM Lords and EC lose Dark Pacts as a source for [lethal hits].  I also like how, unlike the CSM Lord where the hammer/plasma build seems to superior to all the others, I like how the Exultant seems to have 3 decent builds - fist/screamer for a good all rounder, spear/lash for max melee attacks (or sword/lash for character hunting), and 3x pistols for the LOLs.  Plus there are various more versatile melee builds (like the CSM Lord's fist/accursed combo) with 2 non-[extra attack] melee weapons which allow you to chose the best in whatever situation... personally, unless you are doing it for a cool model (which is a valid and fine reason to do it) you are better choosing the melee weapon you like best and taking whatever pistol you can combo with it.

Edited February 28 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Prot]

I guess the Sorc isn’t that hot but I’m going to play devils advocate; he’s better with Noise Marines than the Kakophonist.  
 

I think the Sorc range is better matched and he makes them more survivable while potentially neutering a potential assault. 
 

18” is just woefully short. I really dislike that. As I believe the Kakophonist is 12”. I’ll probably be lucky to see more than 1 sustained hit pop a turn on the Blastmaster. 
 

Sure the cover isn’t great, but I don’t think most of my typical EC lists will be pure Melee and I think other armies will do it better. The idea of putting (for example) a Custodes squad at -2 move, -2 charge is appealing to me. I play against a lot of decent melee players so maybe that why it appeals to me? (Plus I think the Kakaphonist is a bit lacking.  
 

I personally like playing elite armies but don’t have quite the confidence in Faultless Blades that many seem to have. Lucius looks and reads like he’s going to be pure beast mode. I love him. But I’m hoping I am under estimating the blades. 

I hate the feeling that I’m going to be forced to use a landraider. Just the lascannons plus guaranteeing the Blades get to their appointment.

 

As mentioned I do think the rhinos are great. Repair just never made a hill of beans difference to me. I know I already said this but I just think the Tormentors are secret sauce many are glancing over. Trust me precision in a ranged unit,

 is just so hard to hide from when it comes from an advancing rhino squad at range. This potentially could end up in some real ‘feels bad’ moments as most of my opponents are fully embracing hero hammer. Necrons, sisters, GSC…. Really have to hide those characters. This also makes getting that extra cp a little easier. 
 

I also want two lords. One with Whip/sword and pistol/fist. Looks like a fun unit. 
 

And I totally forgot about the Spawn. As you said, a great unit. Reactionary moves are so good. I always use 1 to 2 squads of them with my WE. I think this version might be better with great movement as well. 
 

it feels like my challenge would be fitting in the characters. This cold be too small a footprint to be competitive if I’m not careful. 
 

I’ve made too long a post here. I guess I’m just thinking out loud. Still maybe trying to talk myself into this. lol. 
 

I do have a game tomorrow with my World Eaters ( don’t know the opponent yet). I will definitely keeping these ideas in mind as I butcher my opponent!

 

[Marshal Loss]

Very grateful for this thread and the thoughts already posted. I've been playing exclusively 30k instead of 10th edition as a result of the no points for wargear malarkey but the siren call of my chosen faction is too strong.

 

I'll be picking up two boxes - easy enough to sell the book and excess Noise Marines/parts will be incorporated into my 30k EC army. Makes it a fantastic value proposition for me either way! 

 

There are a few units I'm thinking a lot about at the moment. I really like the EC version of Terminators, Lethal Obsession is a great ability and a worthwhile consolation for losing Despoilers given there are other ways we can buff their damage up. As a unit you can drop down, shoot a target and then get a re-rollable charge against that target, I think they have a lot of utility. Having that slightly more reliable charge in your back pocket without having to spend a CP will keep opponents on their toes. 

 

Lords Exultant look fantastic but I'm unsure how to get the most out of them. Infractors are good but as a bodyguard for the Lord, I agree with HeadlessCross's points, they basically feel like they're just there to be ablative wounds while the Lord Exultant disassembles everything put in front of him, and I can't see myself wanting to put a Lord with Tormentors. Wish they could accompany Flawless Blades (I don't know why they can't...), but it is what it is. How are people thinking is the best way to do this - units of 5 or units of 10? 

 

Noise Marines I'm hot and cold on. I don't think they're bad, but I think they would have benefited from some dedicated support. Nothing they benefit from feels targeted at them specifically which is weird given they're our most iconic unit. Not fussed that they aren't tank hunters, but I would have preferred them to be able to casually project power at longer range rather than having to run up to do so. 

[Tokugawa]

EC subforum when?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

When the codex hits general release.  In the meantime, be sure to tag your EC related thread with "Emperor's Children" so that they get moved.

 

That's a really good point about the sorcerer attached to noise marines - I was thinking what unit would benefit from imposing a movement debuff in a largely melee army, and the ridiculously under-ranged noise marines are exactly that unit.  Good catch.  I still think the "benefits from cover" ability is almost worthless, but again I haven't been thinking about how short ranged noise marines are - its a lot more useful if your unit doesn't have the range to shoot out of the available cover.

 

Still, I think much of the truth in Prot's sorcerer-kakaphonist comparison has more to do with the Kakaphonist being really crappy rather than the sorcerer being fantastic - that said, if you want a character for your noise marines, the sorcerer seems it.

 

I think the spawn, while not virutally useless like their CSM versions, are still too expensive for what you get.  It will be interesting to see if they do see play - their role as quick midfield objective grabbers may be less valuable than it might otherwise be when you have an infiltrating sticky objective unit in the roster that isn't grossly more expensive.

[HeadlessCross]

12 hours ago, Prot said:

I guess the Sorc isn’t that hot but I’m going to play devils advocate; he’s better with Noise Marines than the Kakophonist.  
 

I think the Sorc range is better matched and he makes them more survivable while potentially neutering a potential assault. 
 

18” is just woefully short. I really dislike that. As I believe the Kakophonist is 12”. I’ll probably be lucky to see more than 1 sustained hit pop a turn on the Blastmaster. 
 

Sure the cover isn’t great, but I don’t think most of my typical EC lists will be pure Melee and I think other armies will do it better. The idea of putting (for example) a Custodes squad at -2 move, -2 charge is appealing to me. I play against a lot of decent melee players so maybe that why it appeals to me? (Plus I think the Kakaphonist is a bit lacking.  
 

I personally like playing elite armies but don’t have quite the confidence in Faultless Blades that many seem to have. Lucius looks and reads like he’s going to be pure beast mode. I love him. But I’m hoping I am under estimating the blades. 

I hate the feeling that I’m going to be forced to use a landraider. Just the lascannons plus guaranteeing the Blades get to their appointment.

 

As mentioned I do think the rhinos are great. Repair just never made a hill of beans difference to me. I know I already said this but I just think the Tormentors are secret sauce many are glancing over. Trust me precision in a ranged unit,

 is just so hard to hide from when it comes from an advancing rhino squad at range. This potentially could end up in some real ‘feels bad’ moments as most of my opponents are fully embracing hero hammer. Necrons, sisters, GSC…. Really have to hide those characters. This also makes getting that extra cp a little easier. 
 

I also want two lords. One with Whip/sword and pistol/fist. Looks like a fun unit. 
 

And I totally forgot about the Spawn. As you said, a great unit. Reactionary moves are so good. I always use 1 to 2 squads of them with my WE. I think this version might be better with great movement as well. 
 

it feels like my challenge would be fitting in the characters. This cold be too small a footprint to be competitive if I’m not careful. 
 

I’ve made too long a post here. I guess I’m just thinking out loud. Still maybe trying to talk myself into this. lol. 
 

I do have a game tomorrow with my World Eaters ( don’t know the opponent yet). I will definitely keeping these ideas in mind as I butcher my opponent!

 

A lot of these ideas are off. 

1. Dead units can't assault, which is why you want more offensive output on the Noise Marine weapons. You will average 3 additional hits with the regular Sonic Blasters which is fantastic, not to mention whatever else you get with the big weapons (which is 2 for the lesser shots and 1 for the stronger one). You completely ignored the other weapons in the squad. That's not even counting the 1-2 Mortal Wounds from the Kakophonist and the free Battleshock check after (which conveniently Noise Marines help debuff).

2. The debuff only works on infantry. That's not the scariest thing that Custodes can throw right at you. 

3. If even more goes wrong, you can't rely on the Sorcerer to fight back in melee. 6 D1 attacks hitting on 2+ is significantly more reliable than 4 attacks hitting on 3+ with Dd3.

 

The Sorcerer legit needs a redesign or at grant the -1 to be hit like the base one. 

Edited February 28 by HeadlessCross

[Daemonic Brother]

I have heard the emperors children terminators have been reduced to 5 man units. Do you think that this trend will happen to all traitor legion / loyalist forces ? 

What other design choices do you think will be the standard for armies going forward?

[Ahzek451]

Models look great, the noise marines and army in general looks fast and just shreds infantry. Just going to echo concerns on the omissions, this is a huge blow for many reasons. For modelers, gamers, fans with pre-existing armies, etc. The daemon inclusion is wanted, just clumsily executed IMHO.

At this point it is what it is, short of enough people voicing concerns at the large omission issue and GW making a decision to backtrack, it would at least be nice if GW was more willing to explain these decisions. Designers commentary please. This was no small thing, please explain. Is it because new models are planned to fill these gaps in the future?(sonic preds and dreads), is it simply because GW is trying to phase out the old models?(but if that were so, the land raider and rhino is just as old). Come on GW, be honest and open with your customers.

[LSM]

One fun thing I saw pointed out on reddit:

• The Daemon Prince gains Lone Operative when within 3" of an Emperor's Children Infantry unit.
• Lucius is an Emperor's Children Infantry unit, and has Lone Operative when not leading Flawless Blades.

BFFs! Such is the power of their friendship, that none dare shoot them!

[StrangerOrders]

My personal take on the preorder is to grab one Champion box is possible and two of the CP when its out.

 

That gives you 4 full Squads Tormentor/Infractor, 3 Lords, 2 Noise Marine squads and 2 full Faultless Blade Squads. That feels like a strong core (1805 points) to add extra bits to and covers your core EC range sans the Chars. I also think that it isn't really practical to buy Blades on their own if they have anything like Eightbound prices. 

 

Honestly, my senses might just be dulled by years of GW in the same way as the EC but thats a fairly easy way to get an army as it goes without too brutal a skew.

Edited February 28 by StrangerOrders

[Marshal Loss]

6 hours ago, Daemonic Brother said:

I have heard the emperors children terminators have been reduced to 5 man units. Do you think that this trend will happen to all traitor legion / loyalist forces ?

 

It's a fair question, I suppose they might roll that out across subsequent marine armies to keep Terminators feeling hyper elite, but in the EC context I had assumed they were limited to 5 man squads because they didn't want their super speedy melee army to have a giant anvil style unit. The army has a very tight theme (and even tighter roster) going on.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Now that I have my CSM rules in front of me, I thought I would do a more indepth comparison between the datasheets for the EC units that "come" from the CSM codex.  All of these obviously have Thrill Seekers instead of the CSM Dark Pacts - I'm ignoring any evaluation of the comparative strength of the 2 Faction Rules.

 

Chaos Land Raider - EC version can transport 14 vs CSM 12.  EC better.

 

Chaos Rhino - Loses self repair, gains ability to have passengers disembark even after it advanced.  EC (probably) better.

 

Chaos Spawn - M 10" OC 1 vs CSM M 8" OC 0.  Replaces tiny OC debuff aura with a reactive move.  EC better.

 

Chaos Terminators -  M 6" vs CSM 5", no 10 man squad like CSM, loses reroll hits after dark pacts for reroll charges against sole shooting target.  175 v CSM's 180 pnts.  EC better unless you wanted a brick unit or to focus on shooting.

 

Heldrake - Stat blocks are mostly different T 10, 2+ save, W 14 and Ld 7+ vs. CSM T 9, 3+save, W 12 and Ld 6+.  Instead of getting +1 to hit vs FLY like the CSM one, it gets a 2 dice "bombing" attack that does D3 mortal wounds on a 4+ (3+ vs FLY).  195 v  CSM's 205 pnts.  EC better except against targets with FLY - though its extra resilience IMHO makes it just better.

 

Demon Prince (Foot) - In return for losing its grants cover aura, and its limited reroll, it gets Lone Operative from nearby friendly infantry, grants improved AP to nearby charging units, and fights on death on a 2+.  195 v CSM's 165 pnts.  CSM is probably better, largely due to its cheaper cost.

 

Demon Prince (Winged) - Losses its fly over battleshock for damage reduction.  195 v CSM's 180 points.  EC is better, even with its points hike.

 

Maulerfiend - Looses its ignore modifiers to move and charge for being buffed when it is damaged.  140 v CSM's 130 points.  EC is better, unless facing a lot of movement restriction abilities.

 

Sorcerer - Its -1 to hit ability is now grants cover, and its "unit it shot at" ability is now movement reduction rather than MW.  70 v CSM's 60 pnts.  CSM is better.

 

 

As for the demons, same caveats apply - different keywords and faction abilities, EC demons get  deep strike back as a datasheet ability, rather than a faction one.

 

Daemonettes - Lose reroll 1s to hit for targets on objectives, gain battleshock with -1 at start of fight phase.  120 v CD's 100 pnts.  CD are better.

 

Fiends - Lose -1 to enemy hit rolls within 6" and -1 to desperate escape tests, for all fallbacks from them force desperate escape (-1 if enemy battleshocked).  130 v CD's 105 pnts.  CD is better - EC fiends are harder to fall back from, but are otherwise worse.

 

Seekers - Exactly the same, except 90 v CD's 80 pnts.  EC probably better due to having real deepstrike and not the weird CD faction version.

 

Keeper of Secrets - Exactly the same, except 300 v CD's 290 pnts.  EC probably better due to having real deepstrike and not the weird CD faction version.

 

Shalaxi Helbane - 3+ save vs CD's 5+ (both have 4++).  Loses FNP 5+, -1 to enemy attacks from one engaged unit and reroll charges, hit, wound and damage rolls against characters, monsters and vehicles.  Gains reroll advance and charge rolls, and choose a target to get reroll hits and wounds against until it is destroyed, then chose a new one.  390 v CD's 425 (!!!) pnts.  About the same, CD's abilities are better but is also grossly more expensive.

 

 

So, in general, our CSM derived units are better and our CD ones are worse.  Really doesn't encourage one to take the demon centered detachment unless it has something particularly juicy combos.  That said, the point increases for CD are probably to account for everything having native deepstrike rather than CD's pretty janky Faction ability version... which is fair, as the just plain deepstrike is much better.

 

Edited February 28 by Dr_Ruminahui

[HeadlessCross]

20 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

Now that I have my CSM rules in front of me, I thought I would do a more indepth comparison between the datasheets for the EC units that "come" from the CSM codex.  All of these obviously have Thrill Seekers instead of the CSM Dark Pacts - I'm ignoring any evaluation of the comparative strength of the 2 Faction Rules.

 

Chaos Land Raider - EC version can transport 14 vs CSM 12.  EC better.

 

Chaos Rhino - Loses self repair, gains ability to have passengers disembark even after it advanced.  EC (probably) better.

 

Chaos Spawn - M 10" OC 1 vs CSM M 8" OC 0.  Replaces tiny OC debuff aura with a reactive move.  EC better.

 

Chaos Terminators -  M 6" vs CSM 5", no 10 man squad like CSM, loses reroll hits after dark pacts for reroll charges against sole shooting target.  175 v CSM's 180 pnts.  EC better unless you wanted a brick unit or to focus on shooting.

 

Heldrake - Stat blocks are mostly different T 10, 2+ save, W 14 and Ld 7+ vs. CSM T 9, 3+save, W 12 and Ld 6+.  Instead of getting +1 to hit vs FLY like the CSM one, it gets a 2 dice "bombing" attack that does D3 mortal wounds on a 4+ (3+ vs FLY).  195 v  CSM's 205 pnts.  EC better except against targets with FLY - though its extra resilience IMHO makes it just better.

 

Demon Prince (Foot) - In return for losing its grants cover aura, and its limited reroll, it gets Lone Operative from nearby friendly infantry, grants improved AP to nearby charging units, and fights on death on a 2+.  195 v CSM's 165 pnts.  CSM is probably better, largely due to its cheaper cost.

 

Demon Prince (Winged) - Losses its fly over battleshock for damage reduction.  195 v CSM's 180 points.  EC is better, even with its points hike.

 

Maulerfiend - Looses its ignore modifiers to move and charge for being buffed when it is damaged.  140 v CSM's 130 points.  EC is better, unless facing a lot of movement restriction abilities.

 

Sorcerer - Its -1 to hit ability is now grants cover, and its "unit it shot at" ability is now movement reduction rather than MW.  70 v CSM's 60 pnts.  CSM is better.

 

 

As for the demons, same caveats apply - different keywords and faction abilities, EC demons get  deep strike back as a datasheet ability, rather than a faction one.

 

Daemonettes - Lose reroll 1s to hit for targets on objectives, gain battleshock with -1 at start of fight phase.  120 v CD's 100 pnts.  CD are better.

 

Fiends - Lose -1 to enemy hit rolls within 6" and -1 to desperate escape tests, for all fallbacks from them force desperate escape (-1 if enemy battleshocked).  130 v CD's 105 pnts.  CD is better - EC fiends are harder to fall back from, but are otherwise worse.

 

Seekers - Exactly the same, except 90 v CD's 80 pnts.  EC probably better due to having real deepstrike and not the weird CD faction version.

 

Keeper of Secrets - Exactly the same, except 300 v CD's 290 pnts.  EC probably better due to having real deepstrike and not the weird CD faction version.

 

Shalaxi Helbane - 3+ save vs CD's 5+ (both have 4++).  Loses FNP 5+, -1 to enemy attacks from one engaged unit and reroll charges, hit, wound and damage rolls against characters, monsters and vehicles.  Gains reroll advance and charge rolls, and choose a target to get reroll hits and wounds against until it is destroyed, then chose a new one.  390 v CD's 425 (!!!) pnts.  About the same, CD's abilities are better but is also grossly more expensive.

 

 

So, in general, our CSM derived units are better and our CD ones are worse.  Really doesn't encourage one to take the demon centered detachment unless it has something particularly juicy combos.  That said, the point increases for CD are probably to account for everything having native deepstrike rather than CD's pretty janky Faction ability version... which is fair, as the just plain deepstrike is much better.

 

HIGHLY disagree on the EC Terminators being better than the base ones. 

1. Being able to be taken in 10 man squads means greater efficiency of Enhancements and Strats as a whole. Speaking of which:

2. Better characters to attach. Sorcerer especially grants the same mobility you'd want (and still allows Deep Strike) with a buff that's FAR more scary for the underwhelming firepower of the Terminators. He has less capable melee (as I discussed with the regular Sorcerer vs Kakophonist) BUT he is far more durable at least. Terminator Lord at least gives free strats for being a combat monster. 

3. Since it isn't hard to grant the rerolling charges, base Terminators getting essentially a free rerolling hits is way more clutch. 

 

The only reason I would write an EC list with Terminators is because they don't have a lot of other options. 

[BitsHammer]

Terminators mainly exist as our only real anvil unit and even then we don't get a lot of them or good ways to buff them. I would love to have an excuse to pick up some for the army but nothing has really clicked for me regarding them.

 

There might be some sauce that just isn't standing out though I admit I am not clever enough to spot it at this time.

[EmprahsStrongestGuardsman]

Definitely no terminator armour on the Lord?

 

[BitsHammer]

27 minutes ago, EmprahsStrongestGuardsman said:

Definitely no terminator armour on the Lord?

 

They blew the armor nipple budget apparently no no Terminator Lord.

[Comandante Alexos]

Finally I had a moment to read the codex. 
The background is so damn fun and really describe the twisted and insane nature of the 3rd Legion. I’d also appreciate the descriptions of the drugs consumed my Legionaries, interesting note of background.

 

Edited March 8 by Comandante Alexos

[BitsHammer]

To help people with their list writing here's the updated points.

Edited March 13 by BitsHammer
Fix broken image

[Elazar The Glorified]

In case it's of interest, Attaining Perfection on Oath of Moment blog this week is about the Carnival of Excess:

 

 

https://oathofmoment.co.uk/2025/03/14/attaining-perfection-using-emperors-children-part-2-the-carnival-is-in-town/

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Really like your discussion on thrill seekers - very insightful.  Only thing I think its missing is a discussion on unit sizes - I've watched a few videos from a channel where they continue to prefer minimum squad sizes (Tabletop Titans, if you are curious), even for Infractors, as they feel the value is from the attached character and not the squad itself, and many small squads increases the number of characters you can take for any given number of points.  My own inclination is that max squad sizes are more valuable given that you (usually) give up the benefit of the mobility granted by the rule if you want to double team an enemy unit, which is what I would think one usually wants to do with min sized melee units.  That said, I recognize I have in personal bias towards larger squad sizes, so that may be clouding my own analysis some I'm interested on your thoughts.  On the other hand, the videos I watched involved ruin heavy boards with limited lines of sight, allowing units to jump out and ambush enemy units in a way that appeared to allow them to take best advantage of min sized squads and avoid the disadvantages of thrill seekers rules, which my more open tables may not do.

 

That said, for tormentors I am in favour of min sized squads, as their main advantage (to me) is sticky objectives and for that the number in the squad is largely irrelevant and the more squads the better.

 

Your carnival of excess article is also very interesting, but harder to digest in the abstract (which makes sense, its a much broader topic with a lot more moving parts).  Given your example list, I'm guessing you favour minimum sized squads of infractors as well.  You certainly weigh in heavily on the expanded critical rule, which I think is valid for a test list.  Personally, I'm not sure how much I like putting so many points into noise marines and supporting characters, given the point-blank ranges noise marines currently have... again, they seem to work well for the Tabletop Titans guy, but as before, their terrain placement really favours an ambush playstyle that works well for noise marines that may not work on my own tables.

 

I'm cautious of the carnival of excess detachment, for while it seems quite potent it also seems quite fragile and potentially easy to turn off much of its synergies.  That said, if that doesn't happen, it does seem to be a pretty good list.  Interesting that you go heavily into fiends, where I was more drawn to seekers - I think seekers are great in this list, with the speed to keep up with the EC and potentially get the tandem charges in that you need to keep the 6" codependency rule operating.  I'll have to take a good look at the fiends datasheet to see if that changes my preference - I think the seekers are very competitively priced, but the fiends may be even more so and I may be getting caught up on their new "musk" special ability being kind of lack luster to me.

Edited March 14 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Elazar The Glorified]

Thanks for the response.

 

All really great points. Broadly speaking, I think it's really early days and I tend to write these as much to help me solidify my own thinking as anything else so plenty will probably change with more games. I've done a few lists for detachments so that eventually there will be one of each written up for the blog and I am finding that the detachment choice is having an impact on squad sizes a little but mostly, I tend to have played my games of 40k on tables with plenty of ruins and that informs my choices for sure.

 

For the specific Carnival list I think some of my choices were constrained by wanting to get Fulgrim in the list. I think Seekers look great and have always served me well in my Daemons lists too but they don't hit as hard as Fiends. With Fulgrim eating up a chunk of points it felt like the Daemons units had to have enough threat about them to earn their keep if required and again, due to the nature of the tables I've played on most, the Fiends being Beasts is a definite tick in their favour. Without Fulgrim I'd potentially be looking at adding some Seekers in - although seeing as those in the updated Index have Fights First but the EC ones lack it I'm a little less enamoured.

 

Outside of Carnival, the Lord Kakophonist is still great with Noise Marines but they do feel like a bit more of a luxury... Although currently my favourite detachment is Rapid Evisceration, I've always loved Rhino Rush so having something that works to that play-style but on speed (potentially quite literally) is of real appeal. Jumping out of Rhinos with Sustained and Rerolling 1s is good... Playing with lists for that the most and they often have a mix of 5 man and 10 man squads on the Infractors too depending on what I see their primary role being.

 

As for Tormentors totally agree... But, I keep getting drawn to a 10 man squad babysitting a Lord Exultant with Power Fist and Screamer Pistol sitting front and centre and calling the enemy in to the mix. But, by the time I try and fit the other bits I want in the list both the 10 man Tormentors and the extra Lord Exultant are often trimmed!

Edited March 14 by Elazar The Glorified