Emperors Children Emperor's Children Codex Discussion.

[Prot]

So instead of rumours, etc, I wanted to have a place where we can talk about the good and  bad about playing this codex. In other words, hopefully a gaming thread. (Hobby stuff more than welcome though.)

 

Firstly my concerns. I'm going to assume anyone reading this has seen all the dataslates now as they are very much out there to see. 

 

So in total there are 22 dataslates. 5 of them are daemons, and I think... 7 are unique/new to this book. (I had this all written down but I'm not at my desk.. so I might have some of this wrong.)

 

This right away gave me a red flag. What we're missing is: Preds, Vindicators, Forgefiend (Odd since Mauler is there), Helbrutes, Cultists, etc. This is tough for me because I play weekly and one of the tiny complaints I have about World Eaters is missing what I consider 'basics':

 

- Bikes, raptors, warptalons. (I even pull out Defilers once in a while with my Black Legion.)

 

Also the elite unit only has one build. This kind of surprised me as the World Eaters have the dual kit. Maybe something else is coming? But probably not for a long time.

 

So that is one of my concerns, BUT the playstyle is cool, and potentially more diverse than World Eaters (since EC will have a 'real' shooting phase comparatively speaking.)

 

But at the end of the day, this is the first Chaos codex for 10th. Which means they could all be getting stripped down (except Death Guard which I assume is safe.)

 

What do you folks think? Am I over thinking this? Is the loss of these items going to be made up by the codex  in other ways?

 

I personally think I'm starting with the heavy transport detachment. I think it will be tough for me to reach 2K points until the greater range comes out.

 

Also curious if anyone sees a need to buy more than one box?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui
Added EC tag

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I agree with your responses - I'm not sure why they stripped things down as far as they did.  There are numerous units (Hellbrutes, bikes, etc) that have a direct historical connection to prior specifically EC models and units (sonic dreads and Doom Rider, specifically), and other modern units that fit very well aesthetically with the EC (the current cultist box).  So, while I understand their need to pare back the CSM origin units to allow EC to have their own play style and character, I think they over did it.  Further, from a design perspective, including select demon units in the codex and then restricting them to one detachment is a mistake - IMHO it should either have been a full blown melding of all the slanneshi demons and the EC, or a "refers to" ruleset where the demons remain outside the codex but the detachment refers to and adopts the units from the demons index.

 

Given the removal of so many units, I've decided (as I said in my army thread) to continue my since-8th "EC" army as CSM as it allows me to keep all my stuff, though I'll likely be stealing stuff like Maulerfiends to use in the new EC codex army I'll be starting.  So, I'm not sure how soon I'll delve into play of actual EC - doesn't help that I think the CSM army and detachments rules are generally more powerful than the EC ones I've seen - certainly I prefer the Renegade Raiders version of "assault with benefits" to that of EC's Thrill Seekers.

 

Ultimately, how the EC codex plays will boil down to how it plays as a whole, and looking at the number of units and their individual datasheets only provides an incomplete picture.  How it comes together on the table will have to be seen - and in terms of power level, I think EC are at an inherent disadvantage at the moment as their natural comparator, the CSM, have one of the best army lists in a long time (IMHO since the famed 3.5 codex).

 

Anyway, I'm linking some thoughts I had about the list in the EC rumours thread, based on the datacards leaked so far.

 

I can see someone easily wanting to buy 2 boxes, though that would give you more noise marines (and codexes) than you probably have use for.  That said, 3 Noise Marine units, 4 Infractor/Tormentor and 2 Lord Exultants definitely seems useful (especially the non-noise units - I'm still not sure on noise marines, given their point-blank ranges now).  Personally, the excess noise marine unit and codex make a 2nd box not a good deal for me (especially since the box gives me more than enough to work on until the normal release), but if you are someone who will sell the extras and paints quickly, having more now might be of value to you.  Personally, I'm just hoping I manage to grab one box - I know that these type of "pre releases" can be hot items, and I suspect this one will be even more so.

Edited 9 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[HeadlessCross]

Exultants need an errata to join Faultless Blades. The PA dudes are legit just easily killed caddies for him to reroll wounds. That said at least they can hit above their weight class a bit with that rerolling wounds from the squad. 

 

Speaking of PA dudes, I'm not impressed with the melee ones. There's no D2 natively outside the Exultant being attached and the Champ's Power Sword isn't even S5. They're a scouting piece and that's about it. Range ones have regular ol' terrible Bolters but at least they Infiltrate, so you can shove a mildly expensive 10 man squad with 2 Plasmas and 2 Meltas up front. 

 

Kakophonist needs some work. The sword needs to at least be D2 since otherwise you might as well just go the double pistol route and attach him to Noise Marines. His buff is great with them. His buff with Terminators is frankly laughable and not noteworthy unless you NEED to get an Enhancement over to them for some reason. Will I do one with Terminators though? Probably for funsies, but I'm not going to pretend it's actually good like the EC subreddit is. 

 

Sorcerer was one of the few "ported" units and it straight up trash. 

 

Faultless Blades maybe need another attack. As a six man, they can kill a lot of the smaller 3+ save vehicles with no help from Lucius. Lucius himself is awesome. 

 

Bunch of complaints about Noise Marines online, but I think they're actually pretty good. They weren't ever anti-tank to begin with, so the complaints there are unfounded when y'all need to petition GW to give back some units anyway. 

 

Maulerfiends are baller and have a way better rule than the regular ones for some reason. 

 

Not gonna lie, I think the codex, released as is, is actually a really poor effort from GW. 

[Prot]

Yea I’m thinking 2 boxes would be nice to fill the troops up, max the Noise marines, and have some bits left over.  I do think the ranged troops seem very decent in numbers, assuming the points aren’t ridiculous.  
 

as far as the sorcerer…. I kind of thought he had some play. The mortal wound damage and…. Can he get Precision by being with the troops? I kind of like that theme, or with noise marines because the range if I recall is similar. 
 

honestly the rules and limitations do kind of turn me off.  My world eaters and Black Legion seem to have more replay value. I have grown addicted to Master of Execution with Berzerkers, cleaving HQs down with the Berzerker Glaive and fights first. Shockingly I didn’t see a way to get this combo with EC which I thought would leverage fights first a lot more. 
 

also, and this might be nitpicking but the Flawless Blades really could have been a dual kit especially with such a small codex. And I feel like WE. Can leverage a lot of the EC rules at more opportune times of the game. One example would be getting advance and charge, then changing it out for fight from death and sustained hits. 
 

Lucius feels like a Khârn. I don’t mind the Kackophoni, but he better be pointed like an apothecary approximately. He just has such limited use and with out deep strike ( accident?) I’m not loving him with Termies which aren’t that hit to begin with. 

 

overall I love the models. I love some of the references back to second edition style art in the figs. I think both troops are good to great and the EC rhino is definitely going to see play. 
 

still a but in the fence. I’m nit a huge fan if primarchs especially if they don’t help the army and are super costly on the table.  
 

finally I’ll say I do really like both DP builds. I think if you don’t want to play Fulgrim then at least 1 is in your list.  

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I would field the Sorcerer if it was as you said (so, the CSM version) however, it (like most of the CSM carry overs) have slightly different rules than their CSM cousins.

 

So, for the Sorcerer, instead of conferring a defensive -1 to hit, it gives Benefits from Cover, which is strictly worse.  And, instead of handing out mortal wounds, its equivalent power gives the target unit -2 to move and charge rolls (so, probably worse except in specific circumstances.

 

Other rules differences include the rhino loosing self-repair, but instead letting it advance and still kick out troops and them able to shoot (but not charge), which is probably better.  Maulerfiend now has +1 to hit if injured plus +1 to wound if below half strength, which seems better than the movement related ability in CSM.  Terminators can now reroll charge rolls against the target they shot at (if they only shoot at one unit) - but I'm not sure what they give up from CSM for that.  Spawn are better, now having an OC and a reactive move rather than the tiny OC deny bubble (and no OC) of the CSM version.  Helldrake has, I'm told, straight different stats - I'm not familiar enough with it or looked myself to confirm.  The Demon prince abilities also look different, but another unit I'm not really familiar with and can't set out from memory how - I can check when I'm home with my CSM codex.  Do note, unlike with CSM, we don't get a cost break on the foot one as both it and the winged version are (currently) the same price.

 

So, long story short, you can't assume the units you are familiar with work exactly like you expect them to, but need to read them to figure out how they work in EC.

 

That said, I agree with your view of the tormentors - I'll probably field at least 2 minimum units of them as objective grabbers, plus possibly other full sized units for shooting purposes.  That said, their "sticky objectives" is worse than the cultists whose role they replace - cultists "stickyness" is only removed at the end of the turn, tormentors at the end of the phase - so an opponent can move onto an objective, de-sticky it, then charge off of it whereas with cultists they would need to forgo the charge and stay there to the end of turn to remove it.

 

Infractors, I'm not sure about - they have similar rules and stats to melee Legionaires, but without the 2 heavy melee weapons or dark pacts (or, for Renegade Raiders, the -1 AP to targets on objectives)... plus they don't have access to heavy weapons, for those who forgo melee power for versatility.  Plus (as noted) the "champions" combat options are most limited - while one can swap their plasma pistol for the extra shots of the screamer, they have no heavy melee/power fist option and their power weapon is oddly only S 4.  This means that the Rapture Lash, with identical stats except 50% more attacks and slightly weaker AP, is better against everything except 2+ save with no invulnerable, where they are exactly the same... so, at least until that is fixed (next codex, maybe?) the lash is strictly the better choice.  Note, the same thing applies for the tormentor champion.  They are, however, a bit faster than legionaires, which is something.  And, of course, unit wide [precision] - never having played with (or against) any real sources of [precision], I can't say how powerful that is... I would guess "somewhat, but obviously situational".

 

In regard to the Lord Exultant, its basically a CSM lord with [Lethal Hits] as a unit buff instead of the once-per-round cheaper stratagem.  For me, that's better, as I always forget to use stratagems with my CSM Lords and EC lose Dark Pacts as a source for [lethal hits].  I also like how, unlike the CSM Lord where the hammer/plasma build seems to superior to all the others, I like how the Exultant seems to have 3 decent builds - fist/screamer for a good all rounder, spear/lash for max melee attacks (or sword/lash for character hunting), and 3x pistols for the LOLs.  Plus there are various more versatile melee builds (like the CSM Lord's fist/accursed combo) with 2 non-[extra attack] melee weapons which allow you to chose the best in whatever situation... personally, unless you are doing it for a cool model (which is a valid and fine reason to do it) you are better choosing the melee weapon you like best and taking whatever pistol you can combo with it.

Edited 3 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[Prot]

I guess the Sorc isn’t that hot but I’m going to play devils advocate; he’s better with Noise Marines than the Kakophonist.  
 

I think the Sorc range is better matched and he makes them more survivable while potentially neutering a potential assault. 
 

18” is just woefully short. I really dislike that. As I believe the Kakophonist is 12”. I’ll probably be lucky to see more than 1 sustained hit pop a turn on the Blastmaster. 
 

Sure the cover isn’t great, but I don’t think most of my typical EC lists will be pure Melee and I think other armies will do it better. The idea of putting (for example) a Custodes squad at -2 move, -2 charge is appealing to me. I play against a lot of decent melee players so maybe that why it appeals to me? (Plus I think the Kakaphonist is a bit lacking.  
 

I personally like playing elite armies but don’t have quite the confidence in Faultless Blades that many seem to have. Lucius looks and reads like he’s going to be pure beast mode. I love him. But I’m hoping I am under estimating the blades. 

I hate the feeling that I’m going to be forced to use a landraider. Just the lascannons plus guaranteeing the Blades get to their appointment.

 

As mentioned I do think the rhinos are great. Repair just never made a hill of beans difference to me. I know I already said this but I just think the Tormentors are secret sauce many are glancing over. Trust me precision in a ranged unit,

 is just so hard to hide from when it comes from an advancing rhino squad at range. This potentially could end up in some real ‘feels bad’ moments as most of my opponents are fully embracing hero hammer. Necrons, sisters, GSC…. Really have to hide those characters. This also makes getting that extra cp a little easier. 
 

I also want two lords. One with Whip/sword and pistol/fist. Looks like a fun unit. 
 

And I totally forgot about the Spawn. As you said, a great unit. Reactionary moves are so good. I always use 1 to 2 squads of them with my WE. I think this version might be better with great movement as well. 
 

it feels like my challenge would be fitting in the characters. This cold be too small a footprint to be competitive if I’m not careful. 
 

I’ve made too long a post here. I guess I’m just thinking out loud. Still maybe trying to talk myself into this. lol. 
 

I do have a game tomorrow with my World Eaters ( don’t know the opponent yet). I will definitely keeping these ideas in mind as I butcher my opponent!

 

[Marshal Loss]

Very grateful for this thread and the thoughts already posted. I've been playing exclusively 30k instead of 10th edition as a result of the no points for wargear malarkey but the siren call of my chosen faction is too strong.

 

I'll be picking up two boxes - easy enough to sell the book and excess Noise Marines/parts will be incorporated into my 30k EC army. Makes it a fantastic value proposition for me either way! 

 

There are a few units I'm thinking a lot about at the moment. I really like the EC version of Terminators, Lethal Obsession is a great ability and a worthwhile consolation for losing Despoilers given there are other ways we can buff their damage up. As a unit you can drop down, shoot a target and then get a re-rollable charge against that target, I think they have a lot of utility. Having that slightly more reliable charge in your back pocket without having to spend a CP will keep opponents on their toes. 

 

Lords Exultant look fantastic but I'm unsure how to get the most out of them. Infractors are good but as a bodyguard for the Lord, I agree with HeadlessCross's points, they basically feel like they're just there to be ablative wounds while the Lord Exultant disassembles everything put in front of him, and I can't see myself wanting to put a Lord with Tormentors. Wish they could accompany Flawless Blades (I don't know why they can't...), but it is what it is. How are people thinking is the best way to do this - units of 5 or units of 10? 

 

Noise Marines I'm hot and cold on. I don't think they're bad, but I think they would have benefited from some dedicated support. Nothing they benefit from feels targeted at them specifically which is weird given they're our most iconic unit. Not fussed that they aren't tank hunters, but I would have preferred them to be able to casually project power at longer range rather than having to run up to do so. 

[Tokugawa]

EC subforum when?