Blog Sume's Emperor's Children

[Sume]

I decided to give up on Emperor's Children for anything narrative at 1k points.  As I couldnt come up with anything I was happy with.  I started lists thinking about the wave system in case it appears again Tacoma.  So 200/250/300 for each wave.  Nothing appealed to me.  

I finalized an Annihilation legion Necron list that does fit into 200 point waves with 600 of the main force on the table.  Should be rather fast to paint.  As last resort.  I'll pull out Slaanesh demons and figure something out there.  At least it will be easier to fiddle with as if they didnt change things up too much.  The entire thing will have native deepstrike.

[Sume]

Well, I ended up taking an Annihilation legion of Necrons to the Tacoma narrative.  It did reasonably well overall.  Especially considering I havent played necrons since 3rd edition.  The second day was not good though.  First game was against my friends Tyranid burrowing swarm that effectively tabled me turn 2 but we decided to get a game against each other.  As in the narrative at that point. We where actually trying to get imperial players to fight against each other.  Then my last game was against a guy that was using Black Templar bragging about how his army has been unbeatable since he been playing.  That turned out to be very quickly apparent why.  With his interruption of rules, and only applying benefits or penalties that helped him.  Needless to say a terrible table experience for me.  By that point I was too tired and exhausted to really care anymore.  The Tacoma narrative ended up using the Armageddon crusade rules which most people avoided due to well extra book keeping in an all ready limited time, and the fact that the TOs really couldnt do the 3rd faction or Khorne demons like its supposed to do.

I tossed around what to bring to the Alanata Grand Narrative.  I thought it be great to bring Sisters of Battle as that is my favorite faction.  We did find out that the last games can be up to 2k points.  Then I went back and forth with Necrons.  Life happened and I decided that I dont really want to paint a full 2k sister list from near scratch and there are things I want to change up with the Necrons but dont really know what.  That I decided well we got the 1500 points of EC done all ready.  Why not just change some things up.  Only probably need to paint any where from 500 to 1k worth of points, vs Sisters going to be need around 1500, and Necrons the same.  Despite the Necrons willl be the fastest to do overall with a sandstone theme.

I am fairly certain for crusade you cant switch detachments around.  Which leave me with 2 viable options I like.  The first being the demon ally detachment and then the rhino detachment.  Lessons learned from TX is Noise Marines really need a transport.  Terminators at 1k where a very strong option but got focused down the turn after they came down.  Helldrake, well it was a flop.  So, I think its going to stay home.  With the points  updates I am waiting for things to get updated but have that in mind trying to sort lists.

Things I am brainstorming are make a 1k list then evolve it into a 2k list.  The 1k list needs to be able to stand on its own.  Then the 2nd part would be good if it can do so also, as to gather experience in the narrative.  Unless I use demons then that means they dont get experience.  Which might make the second 1k list easier or harder to build around. If points work out I can switch in units from the second 1k list to the first 1k list.  Thats actually how I designed my sisters list.  Time a unit got to 5 exp, it was effectively not going to get much more benefits in a 5 game crusade.  It was designed to be able to switch in units from the second 1k to also get 5 experience.  So when it went to 2k.  Everything was at least leveled some.  This thought is going to be extremely hard to do with EC I think.  As I am going to be some what limited on my choices for some things due to it being out of stock.

At least this is what I'll have to mess around with:  These are considering full squads if not mentioned.

2x LE

1 Hell turkey

1 mauler fiend

4 rhinos

1 land raider

4 units of demonettes

2 keeper of secerts

2 seekers or 1 big unit (can get up to 10 more, that need rebased and repainted in areas)

20 tormentors

20 infractors

2 sorcerors (not a fan in NM)

3 Noise marines

2 terminators

2 flawless blades

1 lucius, 1 finecast lucius (looks so tiny}

2 LK (going to convert out of infractor bodies, tired of waiting)

3 possible demon princes with wings (need rebased, and repainted in areas to match current theme)
1 Shelaxe (dont feel like named characters, applies to Lucius)

2 fiends (also would need rebased and repainted in areas to match current theme)

2 spawns

Edited Sunday at 03:54 PM by Sume

[Tallarn Commander]

Thanks for the game summaries!

[Sume]

Well toying around with things. I like this 2k list.  Doubt its very good but shrug right?  I noticed overall narrative games from TX and WA where more light hearted and not as competitive.  With the ones in WA being more netlist but it was also around double the people than TX.  



I realize points are currently off on this.  Since KoS is -10 points, LK is +10, Land raider is - 20, and the seekers are -10.   Which currently has this priced at 2020.  With the adjustments of course it is actually 1990.  Guess one of the characters could have Dark Blessings to use up the points.
 

Keeper of Secrets (310pts): Warp Walker, Phantasmagoria, Snapping claws, Witstealer sword
Lord Exultant (80pts): Bolt pistol, Close combat weapon, Phoenix power spear, Plasma pistol
Lord Kakophonist (60pts): Screamer pistol, Power sword

10x Daemonettes (90pts)
10x Daemonettes (90pts)
10x Daemonettes (90pts)
10x Infractors (160pts)
5x Tormentors (85pts)

5x Chaos Terminators (170pts)
5x Chaos Terminators (170pts)
6x Noise Marines (145pts)
5x Seekers (90pts)
2x Chaos Spawn (80pts)
Chaos Land Raider (240pts): Armoured tracks, 2x Soulshatter lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
Chaos Rhino (80pts): Armoured tracks, Combi-bolter
Chaos Rhino (80pts): Armoured tracks, Combi-bolter

The hard part I think would be breaking it down into 1k lists that fit.  Expect I think I did manage to do that for at least one list.  

Looks like this one does indeed break down into 1k.  Problem is getting the warpwalker on the KoS though.  

Keeper of Secrets (280pts): Phantasmagoria, Snapping claws, Witstealer sword
Lord Kakophonist (60pts): Warlord, Screamer pistol, Power sword

10x Daemonettes (90pts)
10x Daemonettes (90pts)
5x Tormentors (85pts)

5x Chaos Terminators (170pts)
6x Noise Marines (145pts)
Chaos Rhino (80pts): Armoured tracks, Combi-bolter

Then the 2nd half:  Only way to actually get the points for the KoS and Warpwalker

Lord Exultant (80pts): Bolt pistol, Close combat weapon, Phoenix power spear, Plasma pistol

10x Daemonettes (90pts)
10x Infractors (160pts)

5x Chaos Terminators (170pts)
5x Seekers (90pts)
2x Chaos Spawn (80pts)
Chaos Land Raider (240pts): Armoured tracks, 2x Soulshatter lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
Chaos Rhino (80pts): Armoured tracks, Combi-bolter

I just cant get the points to break down from the 2k list to make 2 viable 1k lists.  That's probably not too much of a deal breaker though.  As anything that is demon is not going to get exp.  I suppose I could have the tormentors, be swapped in for the spawn and what not.  Of course the easiest swap would be terminators for terminators.  The problem is the NM and LK dont really swap well for a infractor squad and EL.  Guess if swapping things out.  The KoS could easily be replaced for the land raider.  Then the swap for the Infractors  and El would be easier.  It looks possible.  That match that the KoS, NM, LK where swapped for the LR, EL, and Inf would leave me down some points but guess that would be okay.  Then when it goes to 2k.  Easily put warpwalker on the big cow lady.  I tried to make it so, the KoS started with it but I cant find a way to do it.  

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Personally, I'm finding 1000 points very challenging for EC - though, I think that may in part be that I'm finding EC quite challenging.  Its one of the reasons I've decided to swap playing Conceited Coterie for Mercurial Host, as is that at that point level I am finding Coterie's "vowed kills" special rule more of a hindrance than help, and its stratagems are kind of lack luster.  I am interested in running Carnival, but it just seems too fragile for the 1000 point games I've been playing.

 

The point changes help Carnival, but are slightly negative to everyone else (unless they run landraiders).  Personally, I think the Lord Kakaphonist is still a good deal at 70 points such that I would never choose a sorcerer over one.  However, with with no real other options and only it and the sorcerer in the army that cost less than 80 points, that 20 points increase across my 2 models means that I need to drop a unit to make that up  (as I have no wargear I can remove to make up the points)  So, even that slight point cost increase, while reasonable for the unit in question, felt like an overall nerf to an army that (I feel) is struggling given our paucity of options and limited flexibility in tweaking points by swapping units.

 

I think your 2 1000 point list look fine, though personally I would want a unit of tormentors in each of them (recognizing that you only have 1).  I feel your main obstacle in making them work is trying to fit the Warpwalker enhancement onto the LE - take it off and you are fine.  Personally, I think it is over pointed and you don't need the auto-6 advance with a transport (that said, I think warpwalker is great on the keeper).  I do think the keeper is better in your infractor list than your noise marine one, as you want multiple melee threats so they can't just focus down one of them... but that makes that list 10 points over with the points changes, even with taking off warpwalker.  Other than swapping out the demonettes for another unit of seekers (which you may not have), I don't see how to get the points, though, and keep the mix of demons and marines you want.  I guess you could swap the terminators out for something else, but I don't know what.

 

 

Edited Monday at 05:30 PM by Dr_Ruminahui

[Sume]

5 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

Personally, I'm finding 1000 points very challenging for EC - though, I think that may in part be that I'm finding EC quite challenging.  Its one of the reasons I've decided to swap playing Conceited Coterie for Mercurial Host, as is that at that point level I am finding Coterie's "vowed kills" special rule more of a hindrance than help, and its stratagems are kind of lack luster.  I am interested in running Carnival, but it just seems too fragile for the 1000 point games I've been playing.

 

The point changes help Carnival, but are slightly negative to everyone else (unless they run landraiders).  Personally, I think the Lord Kakaphonist is still a good deal at 70 points such that I would never choose a sorcerer over one.  However, with with no real other options and only it and the sorcerer in the army that cost less than 80 points, that 20 points increase across my 2 models means that I need to drop a unit to make that up  (as I have no wargear I can remove to make up the points)  So, even that slight point cost increase, while reasonable for the unit in question, felt like an overall nerf to an army that (I feel) is struggling given our paucity of options and limited flexibility in tweaking points by swapping units.

 

I think your 2 1000 point list look fine, though personally I would want a unit of tormentors in each of them (recognizing that you only have 1).  I feel your main obstacle in making them work is trying to fit the Warpwalker enhancement onto the LE - take it off and you are fine.  Personally, I think it is over pointed and you don't need the auto-6 advance with a transport (that said, I think warpwalker is great on the keeper).  I do think the keeper is better in your infractor list than your noise marine one, as you want multiple melee threats so they can't just focus down one of them... but that makes that list 10 points over with the points changes, even with taking off warpwalker.  Other than swapping out the demonettes for another unit of seekers (which you may not have), I don't see how to get the points, though, and keep the mix of demons and marines you want.  I guess you could swap the terminators out for something else, but I don't know what.

 

 

I agree with all your points.  I fiddled with things trying to get warwalker on the KoS and it was always over.  I think Carnival is only better at 2k points.  Only games I had with it was at 1k and that was trying to downsize what I thought was supposed to be a 1500 point list into 1k points.  I suspect the 2nd terminators unit could be replaced with the mauler fiend.  That I think covers the point costs trying to get warpwalker on the KoS.  I really didnt want the KoS with the noise marines.  I tried to make a 1k list at first and was coming into roadblocks like 10 points over etc. Why I tried to start with 2k and break it down into 2 separate 1k lists that could work.  Points just dont work well like I did it with my Sisters of battle list.  Which each 1k list was really swap a unit of nundans, battle sisters and sacrants out before it went to 2k to gather experience. 

I also agree with you on the points of Coterie.  I think why Coterie came out the gate so strong is the fact the meta at the time.  Not sure if it is still that way.  Used a few throw away units as blockers, infiltrators and or just chaff to muck up the board.  Which allows Coterie a slew of easy kills to get the ball rolling.  I am not a fan of the Coterie over all.  The two detachments that initially stood out to me are Carnival and the transport detachment.  I wanted to try Carnival out first, as I was going to just mix in all ready painted slaanesh demons.  Then I decided I wanted to change up the demon cloth, and hair.  Along with forgetting the exact way I painted the bases.  It was meant to be a quick jump point back in April to get ready for Texas.   Now as for the rhino detachment.  In 40k I like to be a tread head and dislike not having transports and tanks around.    I'll see if I can get a few 1k lists going with that one. Also, I do agree Mercurial Host looks interesting too.

Regardless I think I am going to need to grab 1 or 2 of the "demon princes" from my rather large force of Slaanesh demons.  Repaint any armor, hair and cloth to match and rebase them to match.  With having 17/22 datasheets.  It's the lack of variety that I think kills EC overall.  I was hoping with the September update, we would have gotten access to maybe hellbrutes, defliers, predators (jokes aside) or heck even a noise marine detachment that turns them back into battleline.    I dont get why out of the 4 chaos cultists books.  Noise marines are the only ones not battleline.  Oh well I suppose. 

I been on the fence with EC really since Texas as I think it still needs some more time to cook.  I also, really liked the idea of bringing Sisters to the grand narrative finale as the results will become official GW lore in the future.  For my peace of mind though and time constraints.  I need to either do Necrons, Slaanesh demons or EC.  With Slaanesh demons I dont really know the current state of affairs and with EC hey at least I all ready got some sort of feel for how it plays. 

[Sume]

I wonder if I was too quick to dismiss some of the other detachments.  Mercial Host seems really strong as a defensive buff.  Then the Pearless bladesmen seems really strong too.  I wonder if the extra attack will actually helped out the flawed blades and make them actually scary.  

[Sume]

I came up with this to fiddle with. Dont mind the weapon loadouts as I didnt bother to check and tweak it while trying to figure things out.  I really dont want to character spam but seems EC really needs to do so.  I wanted to use the spawn and 1 more unit of tormentors.  Not sure if I want the WDP but shrug right.  Things I thought be interesting was a 2nd land raider but I dont own a second one, so not included.  I didnt add a third LE as I dont have one.  Unless I convert the old Lucius.  Which I might do so if I decide its warranted.  Didnt break it down into 2 separate 1k lists yet. Who knows if it will break down evenly anyways.  I included the LR as its all ready painted.  I am not sure if I want the hell turkey but it is also all ready painted.

 

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh with Wings (225pts): Warlord, Distortion, Hellforged weapons, Infernal cannon
Lord Exultant (80pts): Bolt pistol, Close combat weapon, Phoenix power spear, Plasma pistol
Lord Exultant (80pts): Bolt pistol, Close combat weapon, Phoenix power spear, Plasma pistol

5x Infractors (85pts)
5x Infractors (85pts)
5x Tormentors (85pts)

5x Chaos Terminators (170pts)
5x Chaos Terminators (170pts)
6x Flawless Blades (220pts)
6x Noise Marines (145pts)
6x Noise Marines (145pts)
Chaos Land Raider (220pts): Armoured tracks, 2x Soulshatter lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
Maulerfiend (130pts): Maulerfiend fists, Lasher tendrils
Chaos Rhino (80pts): Armoured tracks, Combi-bolter
Chaos Rhino (80pts): Armoured tracks, Combi-bolter

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think, in addition to the reasons you give, that Coterie was the most popular detachment on release is that it has a huge potential upside that (on paper, anyway) is rewarding you for doing what you already want to be doing, in addition to it being a highly thematic and "flashy" ability.  I guess its just easy to forget that there may not be a lot of units to kill (certainly often the case for me, with typically fewer than 10 units per side in my games).  As well, with it triggering at the beginning of the turn, you aren't getting any benefit until turn 3 (unless your opponent screws up and you can kill something turn 1) at which point (from my experience) most 40K games are basically over.  So its something that, except perhaps with tournament style terrain layouts, gives you very little in exchange for the opportunity to kill your own character and some lackluster stratagems.  Plus, its kind of a "win more" ruleset (in that it does better if you do better) where I personally prefer "lose less" rules that help keep me from falling behind or help me when I'm are doing poorly.

 

That said, a lot of the detachment abilities are poorly thought out and/or implemented (not too surprising with a 1st time book, so while I'm critical of them I'm not bitter), with Slanneshi's Chosen being probably the worst if conceptually interesting.

 

Carnival is, IMHO, the most interesting of them, with decent detachment rules and some great equipment, but probably requires more skill (in positioning and hiding units) than I have... certainly, I don't think I can get the resiliency I need at 1000 points to prevent my shooty opponents from simply killing the right units and shutting off my detachment ability.

 

The Transport one seems good, but not the way I want to play EC - I played my sisters that way as my primary army in 3rd and my secondary army from 4th to 7th, so I don't really want to recreate that playstyle - hindered by me not enjoying painting rhinos (or the rhino model when painted) very much.  Again, this is another detachment where the enemy can kill you out of your army rules, which I'm wary of.  You seem more of a treadhead than I am, though, so if you try it out I'd love to hear about it.

 

I dislike Peerless Blademen's complete focus on melee, given that we actually don't have that many really potent melee units.  Plus, I think noise marines are one of our better and most iconic units, and I want to try to make those work - and I feel this list punishes me (or at least doesn't give me any benefit) for doing that.  Flawless Blades certainly have gotten better (in that they are 33% more killey for the same points), but I can't say yet whether than makes them or Peerless Bladesmen a good choice now - I suspect not, but I'm not really going off of anything here but my gut feeling.

 

I think demon princes are one of our better units, so I think your army will benefit from stealing some of those from your demons.

 

Your 2000 point list seems to be 20 points over, but it seems a good pool of units to build an army out of.  Personally, though, I'd want another 5 tormentors as I think you really want 2 objective grabbing units - that said, I'm used to playing CSM where doing that costs 1/2 as much.

 

I too am not a fan of how hero centric this codex seems to be wanting us to be, but given the choice between a LE and a LK, I think the latter is more powerful - but does prevent you from putting 2 units of noise marines in a single rhino.  That said, at some point I want to try putting noise marines and infractors in the same rhino, with a character in one of the 2 squads - you loose the infractors' scout ability, but it still seems like a decent combo, especially when you can't fire more than 2 blastmasters out of the rhino anyway.

 

Let me know how using the landraider goes for you - even with the points drop, I'm still really wary of it, giving their conflicting roles and wondering whether even 4 lascannons is worth that cost for the antitank they bring.

 

Finally, as to for the heckturkey, I too have one but even with its better rules in our codex, I don't know what it does other than be a big target.  I should probably try it out some day, but its hard when I really think I'm better off with another maulerfiend (or something else - its really easy to spend points in this codex) instead.

 

Wow... that's rather more of a wall of text than I intended - sorry about that.

Edited 13 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[Sume]

It's all good. I think as a player base everyone is still trying to figure out this mini codex. The problem is the 17/22 datasheet issue. Weirdly noise marines being alternative havocs and a change from their prior origins.

 

Then there is still our issue of lack of variety. Most of the characters are the only good thing. Why competitive lists are like 2 to 3 winged demon princes, 2 to 3 LE and same for KL. Which essentially leaves the book feeling like diet world eaters and from a combined arms stand point diet death guard. 

 

Glancing around at different lists there's really no variation even if a different detachment is chosen.  I really like carnival of excess. Only decent lists I seen. Just run 4 units of demonettes and then the rest is practical the same. 5 man Infractors to deliver LEs into combat and be ablative wounds. Then noise marines and Tormentors. 

 

As I am not a super hyper competitive 40k player. I try to explore the lesser used options. I am thinking I am going to need to steal the demon princes even if I don't want to.  That or try to get some of the new ones.

 

I did notice the list I brain stormed up is 2k on the dot and it's supposed to be peerless blades.  I looked at the Rhino detachment and there really wasn't much to do more with the damage output once you get out and try to survive to jump back in.  Also don't like the enchantment you need to be shot at to get back in. 

 

Slaaneshs chosen needs tweaking. I don't like coterie and murical host is mostly defensive.  Where this army doesn't feel like it knows what it wants to be. 

 

Going to bounce peerless bladesmen around for a bit I think. LR even with the point reduction doesn't feel the best but only actual long range damage.  Flawed blades I think are too fragile and are essentially diet 8 bound. 1 attack each probably is what they needed. Also, maybe a little point decrease on spawn or something let the point increase to the best units feel better.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Sume