I've recently come into some Chaos Space Marines, around 3.2k of them; I have questions

[Helias_Tancred]

Subject says it all.

 

I've been in the hobby since 2012. I've never collected CSM nor to be frank played against them much. So I'm a newbie on them. 

 

Straight CSM. Either new on the sprue, NIB, or built and primed in wraithbone or chaos black? None are the old first gen CSM, these are all the new more recent and slightly larger sculpts. Very nice sculpts. I plan to build/paint them as Black Legion. 

 

Let me get to my questions so far:

1. If you build the Chaos Lord with the accursed weapon (which in the kit is the axe) and then you go with the power fist on the left hand instead of the plasma pistol does that mean when he attacks in melee he gets his accursed weapon attacks AND the power fist attacks?

 

2. To lead the 5 man Chaos terminator squad what would you recommend? A Chaos lord in terminator armor, or a Sorcerer in terminator armor? The re-rolls to advance and charge that the latter has seems sorta clutch for that unit?

 

3. What is the best build for the Hellbrute? After looking at his rules I was thinking twin lascannons, hellbrute fist, and heavy flamer?

 

4..  I'm going to list what I have, and you experienced CSM players can let me know if this is a pretty decent collection in terms of throwing together some lists? My main intent is to have them as that "other army" that I can use to teach someone to play 40k, or if I want to take a break from my Dark Angels and try something new, or one of my friends comes over and wants to play them, etc etc. So anyways here's what I have:

 

30 Legionaries

10 Raptors 

5 Chosen

5 Possessed

20 Cultists

5 Chaos terminators

2 five man Havoc squads, one with autocannons and the other with missile launchers

Abaddon

Fabius Bile + surgeon gimp

Chaos sorcerer

Dark Apostle + assistants

Master of Possession

Lord Discordant on helstalker

Warpsmith

4 Obliterators 

2  Venomcrawlers

Forgefiend

Hellbrute

Chaos Rhino 

Chaos Predator Annihilator 

 

How am I doing with this? I was thinking in the future maybe a chaos Land Raider, another chaos rhino? Anything obvious like a jump pack character like Haarken Worldclaimer, or a Chaos lord with jump pack to lead the raptors?

 

Looking for analysis, ideas to grow it, criticisms, things to avoid, etc etc. 

 

Thanks. 

 

Edited May 3 by Helias_Tancred

[Helias_Tancred]

Also any advice on building the Forgefiend?

 

Also just from my research I think another 5 Chosen and a Chaos Vindicator would be wise choices. 

 

 

Edited May 3 by Helias_Tancred

[Tallarn Commander]

1.  No, the lord chooses which weapon. Most folks go with hammer plasma currently.
2. Either could work, but the Sorc is considered slightly more effective.

3. Any number of configurations could work. I also usually take fist and twin lascannon.

4. With this collection you can run a number of fun, solid lists. Note that Havoc missile launchers are considered the worst heavy weapon they can take. It’s not good at all in the current edition.

 

These days most folks build the Forgefiend with triple plasma. I love my Chosen. I don’t have a Vindicator but it is generally considered a good, albeit swingy, tank. 

 

Welcome to Chaos!

Edited May 3 by Tallarn Commander

[Helias_Tancred]

2 hours ago, Tallarn Commander said:

1.  No, the lord chooses which weapon. Most folks go with hammer plasma currently.
2. Either could work, but the Sorc is considered slightly more effective.

3. Any number of configurations could work. I also usually take fist and twin lascannon.

4. With this collection you can run a number of fun, solid lists. Note that Havoc missile launchers are considered the worst heavy weapon they can take. It’s not good at all in the current edition.

 

These days most folks build the Forgefiend with triple plasma. I love my Chosen. I don’t have a Vindicator but it is generally considered a good, albeit swingy, tank. 

 

Welcome to Chaos!

 

Thank you for answering my questions!

 

Hammer and plasma it is then. Yeah when I looked at the Chaos Lord in Terminator armor and the Sorcerer in terminator armor I actually liked the stats of the lord better, he's a dependable beat stick, but that re-roll advances and charges is just TOO good for that unit imo. Noted on the hellbrute. I need a little more AT anyways. The havocs are already built, my good friend built them in early 9th edition I believe? I can always proxy them and just state upfront they are lascannons?

 

Glad to know I can do some fun stuff with this collection. After reading in detail the weapon configuration of the Forgefiend, I agree, triple plasma looks solid!

 

I've never had a chaos collection EVER since I've been in the hobby. I've done Blood Angels, Crimson Fists, Dark Angels, and Black Templars but never anything Chaos. I always told myself and my friends I'd never play any "chaos filth" but if I did it would be Black Legion or Thousand Sons. Well, here I am lol, with a Black Legion collection to be my foil to my Dark Angels and a spare collection for teaching people how to play 40k, or me or my 40k friends running them out of interest or a change?

 

I kinda like Haarken Worldclaimer over a Chaos Lord with jumpack for a character to go with that raptor squad. Thoughts on that? Also when building legionaries, let's say you have 3 ten-man squads, how many do you make as more melee focused, and how many you make more shooty focused?

 

 

 

Edited May 3 by Helias_Tancred

[HeadlessCross]

1. You choose between the attacks. I usually go Fist/Hammer so that I have slightly more reliable hitting in the event of melee modifiers. Doesn't happen a lot, but that situation being prepared for is superior to a few Plasma shots in a game. 

2. That would depend on the detachment, but generally Terminator Sorcerer is better since he'll buff their shooting too. 

3. No build for the Helbrute works LOL. Just take all melee weapons if you plan to rush up, or two range weapons if you don't. Mix build doesn't work. 

4. That you have Fabius makes me think you should go towards Creations Of Bile for a list, but to learn the game a bit better I'd recommend Renegade Raiders or Pactbound. How large is the list supposed to be?

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Helias_Tancred said:

 

Thank you for answering my questions!

 

Hammer and plasma it is then. Yeah when I looked at the Chaos Lord in Terminator armor and the Sorcerer in terminator armor I actually liked the stats of the lord better, he's a dependable beat stick, but that re-roll advances and charges is just TOO good for that unit imo. Noted on the hellbrute. I need a little more AT anyways. The havocs are already built, my good friend built them in early 9th edition I believe? I can always proxy them and just state upfront they are lascannons?

 

Glad to know I can do some fun stuff with this collection. After reading in detail the weapon configuration of the Forgefiend, I agree, triple plasma looks solid!

 

I've never had a chaos collection EVER since I've been in the hobby. I've done Blood Angels, Crimson Fists, Dark Angels, and Black Templars but never anything Chaos. I always told myself and my friends I'd never play any "chaos filth" but if I did it would be Black Legion or Thousand Sons. Well, here I am lol, with a Black Legion collection to be my foil to my Dark Angels and a spare collection for teaching people how to play 40k, or me or my 40k friends running them out of interest or a change?

 

I kinda like Haarken Worldclaimer over a Chaos Lord with jumpack for a character to go with that raptor squad. Thoughts on that? Also when building legionaries, let's say you have 3 ten-man squads, how many do you make as more melee focused, and how many you make more shooty focused?

 

 

 

Yeah triple plasma for the Forgefiend. 

 

Hearken is dependent on if you want an Enhancement on the Raptors, but generally you don't. 

[Helias_Tancred]

40 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

1. You choose between the attacks. I usually go Fist/Hammer so that I have slightly more reliable hitting in the event of melee modifiers. Doesn't happen a lot, but that situation being prepared for is superior to a few Plasma shots in a game. 

2. That would depend on the detachment, but generally Terminator Sorcerer is better since he'll buff their shooting too. 

3. No build for the Helbrute works LOL. Just take all melee weapons if you plan to rush up, or two range weapons if you don't. Mix build doesn't work. 

4. That you have Fabius makes me think you should go towards Creations Of Bile for a list, but to learn the game a bit better I'd recommend Renegade Raiders or Pactbound. How large is the list supposed to be?

 

lol poor Helbrute. We're mostly playing 1k games.

 

Edited May 3 by Helias_Tancred

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

 

lol poor Helbrute. We're mostly playing 1k games.

 

Maybe something like 2×5 melee Legionaires + a Lord to put in the Rhino, Forgefiend, Autocannon Havocs, 5 Possessed, and then 10 Cultists to start with?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

For legionaires, the melee versions are superior as their special rule only works in melee and their chainswords give you more higher quality (being Ap -1) attacks.  Generally, only reason to take bolter legionaires is to hold objectives but generally cultists with their sticky objectives (aka they can move off them and still hold them) are generally better than that.

 

Unless your legionaire kits are less than a couple of years old, they probably don't have the extra heavy melee weapon for the squaddie (that comes bundled with the kill team sprew that also comes with the chaincannon, which is a more recent addition to the kit).  If that's the case, you definitely want to get one into your squads.  One way of doing that is give the champion's chain axe and give your champion a power fist from somewhere to be his heavy melee weapon (they have the same profiles, so the fist makes a good stand in) - otherwise, you can convert one for the squaddie using whatever parts you might have on hand (I used the goliah two handed chain axe for one of mine).

[Helias_Tancred]

They're all the new Legionnaire kits. The sculpts are great!

 

 

[HeadlessCross]

25 minutes ago, Helias_Tancred said:

They're all the new Legionnaire kits. The sculpts are great!

 

 

Absolutely avoid putting together ANYONE with Bolters. Bolters have not been good and never will be. There's better range support in the codex. Champ and dude with Heavy Melee Weapons, two dudes with Chainswords, and then a range Heavy Weapon of choice. Never do 10 man squads because you get less of the Heavy Melee Weapons and for some reason you can't double up on the range weapon (which means worse ability to tailor). 10 man squads sound better for strats, but there's better targets for Strats to begin with and Legionnaires aren't good for anything but just being a caddy for a Slamlord.

[MadEdric]

Cherish the Venom Crawlers, I find for their price they deliver. Often I like to try to have them tag team targets with other units to try and scavenge a kill to power up.

Chosen are a good versatile unit. 

 

Edited May 5 by MadEdric
removed previously answered question.

[Tallarn Commander]

As someone who usually runs squads of 10 Legionaries, I agree with Headless Cross. Squads of 5 are more effective/efficient at trading for objectives, doing secondaries, screening, deep strike denial, etc.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

21 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

They're all the new Legionnaire kits. The sculpts are great!

 

Doesn't necessarily mean it has the extra kill team sprue with the heavy melee weapon, though - you should check for that, if you haven't already.  Anyway, even if you do, if you are going 5 man squads you'll definitely have to scrouge or convert an extra 2 of the things, as you'll want 4 per 10 and will have (at most) 2.

 

And yeah, the current legionnaires sculpts are great, though by the end of the squad you'll likely be wishing they had less trim.  But such is the fate of all chaos marine painters. 

[Helias_Tancred]

They don't. The new legionaries kit and sculpts, but for heavy weapons just has the heavy bolter and missile launcher :(

 

Which heavy weapons comes on that sprue you mentioned? I know you said the chain gun .... havoc auto cannon, lascannon, plasma cannon, multi-melta?

 

 

 

Edited May 5 by Helias_Tancred

[gaurdian31]

1 hour ago, Helias_Tancred said:

They don't. The new legionaries kit and sculpts, but for heavy weapons just has the heavy bolter and missile launcher :(

 

Which heavy weapons comes on that sprue you mentioned? I know you said the chain gun .... havoc auto cannon, lascannon, plasma cannon, multi-melta?

 

 

 

Here's a link to the Kill Team Legionaries: https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/kill-team-legionaries-2024?queryID=a342a39b2a10405e230bf6ad9dd323aa

 

The heavy weapon is the Reaper Chaincannon. It also comes with bits to make a Balefire Acolyte and then the heavy melee weapon as well. The other bits are to make Kill Team exclusive legionaries. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

This is s picture of the sprue in question:

 

 

But yeah, the only 40K relevant bits are the chaincannon, the balefire accolyte bits (which are the "backpack trophy" book and the flaming knife), and the heavy melee weapon.  The first two are okay options (in that you can use them in a squad without penalizing yourself, and they perform well in some roles), while the third is pretty much mandatory in any legionaire squad, as it forms a huge part of their melee punch.

 

The other bits you can certainly use in a 40K squad (I have a squad in the works that does), but they don't have any rules attached to them - all they do is add character to whatever squaddies you've used them on.

Edited May 5 by Dr_Ruminahui

[HeadlessCross]

17 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

This is s picture of the sprue in question:

 

 

But yeah, the only 40K relevant bits are the chaincannon, the balefire accolyte bits (which are the "backpack trophy" book and the flaming knife), and the heavy melee weapon.  The first two are okay options (in that you can use them in a squad without penalizing yourself, and they perform well in some roles), while the third is pretty much mandatory in any legionaire squad, as it forms a huge part of their melee punch.

 

The other bits you can certainly use in a 40K squad (I have a squad in the works that does), but they don't have any rules attached to them - all they do is add character to whatever squaddies you've used them on.

I'd argue that the Balefire isn't actually performing well for any role and is merely taking away your ability to run another Chainsword guy which is infinitely more useful. 

[Helias_Tancred]

balefire being the standard CSM flamer?

 

 

[gaurdian31]

1 hour ago, Helias_Tancred said:

balefire being the standard CSM flamer?

No, they're more a sorcerer's apprentice. There's a picture of the one I painted in the spoiler. He has the chained book, flamey hand and flamey knife.

 

Spoiler

 

[Helias_Tancred]

Kinda like Sorcerers in training?

 

 

Edited May 10 by Helias_Tancred

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yeah - kind of like a step down from an aspiring sorcerer.  Rules wise, they are basically 2 18" Str 5 AP -1 at the expense of the model's bolter or chainsword.

 

So, okay in a squad that you want to put a chaincannon, but otherwise a guy with a chainsword is probably better - its too bad it doesn't have the pistol keyword.  His flaming knife should probably be more than just a close combat weapon as well, but it isn't.

Edited May 10 by Dr_Ruminahui

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

Yeah - kind of like a step down from an aspiring sorcerer.  Rules wise, they are basically 2 18" Str 5 AP -1 at the expense of the model's bolter or chainsword.

 

So, okay in a squad that you want to put a chaincannon, but otherwise a guy with a chainsword is probably better - its too bad it doesn't have the pistol keyword.  His flaming knife should probably be more than just a close combat weapon as well, but it isn't.

A squad with a Chaincannon still wants the two Heavy Melee Weapons and Chainswords. 

[Cpt.Danjou]

When creating a list for CSM it is crucial to look what detachement you are going to play. I would start out with Pact-bound Zealots to learn to use Dark pact as much as possible. forgetting to use that rule in a important moment can be change a win to a loss. With pact-bound Zealot on a Nurgle marked heavy shooter. can mean that you hit 30% more, I have manged to hit six time with my lascannon havoc squad. Also they were saved by some heavy shooting due to the Nurgle stratagem. When using weapons I have the rule that low strength weapons, depending on the toughness of the target, I always go for lethal hits when rolling Dark pact. Sustained hits on heavy strength weapons.

 

When equipping legioners, think what their objective is, are they being objective campers, a ten man squad in a rhino, is a good choice. load them for bear, autocannons, and lascannons are my choices for the heavy weapons. Remember that you only can have one sort of heavy ranged weapon in a squad, so no double autocannons. Always take the heavy melee weapon and have the aspiring champion carry a heavy melee weapon plus the icon, never forget the ICON. If I remember correctly there is powerfists on the legionaries sprue, which they can't use, so use them as Heavy Melee weapons instead if you don't have other such weapons over from the Chosen box, any more powerful looking weapon should be suffice as a Heavy melee weapon. The Aspiring Champion I usually give a plasma pistol instead of the bolter, as someone said earlier, the bolter is not a good weapon.

Legionaries are really good as close combat chock troops, many attacks with re-rolls of ones, many opponents concentrate their fire on the other close combat specialist first, forgetting that Legionaries are blenders in close combat. I never take a heavy or special weapon in a Legionaries unit except maybe a plasma pistol, attach a Sorcerer or Lord, chuck them in a Rhino and let the get stuck in close combat, with a Sorcerer, the get hard to kill, and the Lords hammer plus ability to use a stratagem a second time is great.

 

Even if Chosen are fast with their inbuilt advance and charge, I never count on it, I usually take a ten man squad stuffed into a rhino, either with a Chaos lord, or Fabulous Bill, I do play the Creations of Bile detachement mostly these days, they hit like trucks when they reach the enemy, load them with as many Heavy melee weapons, and plasma pistols as possible. If you play CoB, and get lucky you can have 50+ attacks on the charge, buffed by Bill the chosen get both harder to kill and hits harder. Don't forget the icon on the Chosen!!

 

I love Hellbrutes, and Dreadnaughts, but these days I seldom bring it, and if I do I use him as buff monkey for my long range heavy weaponry, loading him with TL LC and ML, giving both Sustained and Lethal hits when doing a dark pact in his aura range. Great when using the Pact-bound zealots Detachement.

 

Forgefiend should be armed with as much plasma as possible, but I don't think one is enough, most players will know how much they hurt, and will have it is a target as soon as possible. But in tandem with the predator and a Hellbrute it can be enough, if going Pact-bound give them all Mark of Nurgle, use the Stratgem on the Forgefiend and let the Predator and Hellbrute eat the damage, you can also make a castle with Abaddon as support for the the long range, remember that Abaddon can use all Mark specific Stratagems . The predator should be armed with as many lascannons as possible, don't forget the havoc launcher, it is not that great, but it can chew away some wounds here and there. You can also use the Warpsmith in a castle healing and buffing one vehicle

 

I always try to bring one or two Cultist units, mostly 20 man squads, using them as objective takers and screens, their Sticky objective ability is great. Don't count on them to do much damage, but sometimes they will surprise you, and your opponent, when they manage their pact and lethal hit a couple of times. I had the luck to kill two rubrics in a desperate charge. Don't fall for the temptation to put a power armoured character in the unit.

 

Possessed are amazing, they hit like trucks, and are fairly hard to kill with their invulnerable save, and very fast. 

 

I like Terminators, they are a great annoyance when they deep strike, and they can do loads of damage, but I use them mostly as late game objective takers, as they are fairly slow, and most opponents keep away from them, I find their shooting a bit lackluster, as they have slightly souped up bolters, sure they most often are in range to shoot 4 shoots each, but that means 16 shots plus the cannon if in half range. I use them as extra wounds for a termi lord or or a termi sorc, load them up with as many powerfists, and chainfists as possible, I have found that they really need an icon, but sadly they don't have that option.

 

I can't advice you on Obliterators or Venomcrawlers as I have not used them that much. And the rest of the characters you have I don't have or are not that good, the MoP has been nerfed a lot, so no one uses them any more. And no one uses, maybe one of the coolest model in the range, the Lord Discordant, as it is just bad.

 

Here are my general advice, build after the detachement you are going ro use. The three main competitive ones at the moment are Renegade raiders, Pact-bound Zealots, and Creation of Bile. Legionaries is your bread and butter, always bring a couple of units. Chosen, and possessed are gold. Bring Cultists as screens, objective takers, and action monkeys. Rhinos are great transports, screens and movable covers. Chaos space marines are more fragile than you think, it is more common that you save on four or less, and the toughness of four is not that great, so keep them out of sight of your opponent.  Never forget to Dark pact, you will loose models using it, but that is something you just will have to accept, icons helps a lot. If you have the points, bring high strength, and high toughness vehicles, but one is not just enough, they will melt like popsickles in the Sahara desert if you only bring one. 

Make a battle plan what the units should do, and build them accordingly.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Cpt. D

[Helias_Tancred]

Thank you for that. You gave me a very authentic excellent primer on CSM! I've never played any CSM or sub-faction, and I've rarely played CSM over the years I've been in the hobby; mainly DG and some World Eaters now and then.

 

I have 40 legionaries. Two 10 man squads geared for shooting, and two geared for close combat. I only have one Rhino. I probably need another one at least?

 

I'm going to repost the collection to this thread. Feel free to add any insight ;)