I've recently come into some Chaos Space Marines, around 3.2k of them; I have questions

[Helias_Tancred]

Chaos Space Marines Collection (4060 Points)

Chaos Space Marines
Veterans of the Long War
Onslaught (3000 Points)

 

CHARACTERS

 

Abaddon the Despoiler (280 Points) - Warlord
 

Chaos Lord (90 Points) with Accursed weapon & Power fist

 

Dark Apostle (75 Points)
 

Fabius Bile (85 Points)
 

Lord Discordant on Helstalker (160 Points) with Baleflamer & Magma cutter
 

Master of Possession (70 Points)
 

Sorcerer (60 Points)
 

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (80 Points) with combibolter
 

Warpsmith (70 Points) with Forge weapon and Plasma pistol
 

 

BATTLELINE

 

Cultist Mob (100 Points) x 20
 

Legionaries (170 Points) x 10 with Boltguns

 

Legionaries (170 Points) x 10 with Boltguns
 

Legionaries (170 Points) x 10 with Heavy melee weapon, Meltagun and Champion with Heavy melee weapon and Plasma pistol

 

Legionaries (170 Points) x 10 with Heavy melee weapon, Meltagun and Champion with Heavy melee weapon and Plasma pistol

 

 

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

 

Chaos Rhino (75 Points) with Combi-bolter
 

 

OTHER DATASHEETS

 

Chaos Bikers (130 Points) x 6 with bolt pistols
 

Chaos Predator Annihilator (135 Points)
 

Chaos Terminator Squad (180 Points) x5 with 2x Accursed weapons, 2x Power fists, 3x Combi-weapons, 1x Reaper autocannon and Champion with Combi-weapon & Power fist
 

Chosen (250 Points) x 10 with Boltguns & Accursed Weapons
 

Forgefiend (180 Points) with 3x Ectoplasma cannon
 

Havocs (125 Points) with 4x Havoc autocannon and Champion with Meltagun and Accursed weapon
 

Havocs (125 Points) with 4x Missile Launchers and Champion with Meltagun and Power fist
 

Helbrute (130 Points) with Twin lascannon, Hellbrute fist & Heavy flamer
 

Maulerfiend (130 Points) with lLasher tendrils
 

Obliterators (160 Points) x2

 

Obliterators (160 Points) x2

 

Possessed (120 Points) x 5

 

Raptors (170 Points) x10 
 

Venomcrawler (120 Points)
 

Venomcrawler (120 Points)
 

 

 

 

*The Helbrute is hammer and combat fist. I didn't think any of his ranged weapons were really that good considering what he could do if built with double melee arms. A charging murder machine?

 

*The legionaries built for close combat are also not accurate in that list. I've got the spare heavy weapon and plasma pistol in each squad. I also put a plasma gun in one, and a melta gun in the other. /shrug? The aspiring champion is plasma pistol and power fist (heavy melee weapon) in each one. 

 

* The missile launcher Havoc unit probably most of the time will be proxied for lascannons?

 

* How valuable is the Lord Discordant on Helstalker? Ditto for the Venomstalkers and TWO units of Obliterators?

 

*One of the Legionaries built for shooting is Hades Autocannon/Plasma gun, the other is Heavy Bolter/plasma gun. The aspiring champions in each are plasma pistol and heavy melee weapon.

 

Thanks. 

 

Edited May 13 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Cpt.Danjou]

I don't use more than two Rhinos, even if they are cheap, three would cost a bit much, loosing a little to much firepower, and manpower. A trick I have use at times is to chuck two close combat squads of legionaries of five in a Rhino and bring them up closer to the enemy, Just so I can have maximum heavy melee weapons, a ten man squad can only have a heavy melee weapon on the Asparing champion and one more Legionaries, but splitting them into two 5 man squads you effectively double the amount of heavy melee weapons, plus you can also bring two characters instead of one. Remember that a Rhino can bring twelve power armour models instead of ten as it was in earlier editions.

 

Don't fall into the trap of bringing other units from the other cult armies, Noise marines, Berzerkers or Plague marines, as they don't get Dark pact. Good lord Noise Marines would be amazing with sustained hits on 5+ if in Pact-bound Zealots. 

 

Also remember that Cultists have the Heretic Astartes rule, so they can use all stratagems and rules that comes with that, ride rhinos took me a while to learn. Plus I have forgotten so many times that they have grenades that it is not even funny. 

 

Cpt. D

[Helias_Tancred]

The additions I know I want to add are:

 

Cypher (because my other 40k collection are Dark Angels lol)

Haarken Worldclaimer (to lead the Raptor unit)

Chaos Rhino (for a total of two)

Chaos Vindicator (just too much of a cool hard hitting vehicle for them)

 

 

The ones that I consider but I'm not sure:

 

Chaos Land Raider

Chaos Terminator squad, which would give me two, but would I use two squads often?

 

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I've edited your list to make it easier to read - so its easier for others to give advice.

 

One thing I noticed is you don't have a lot of wargear listed - so you should make sure to get that into squads.  In particular, most of your squad champions seem to be "naked" (the raptors and bikes caught my eyes in this regard) - make sure to give them plasma pistols and power weapons (fists, preferably) where such are allowed.

 

For the raptors, you need to decide what you are doing with them.  If they are a melee bully squad, you should give them 4 plasma pistols plus the one on the champion (with a power weapon).  If they are objective grabbers, make them 2 5-man squads and give them either flamers (if you intend to use them for overwatch) or plasma (if you intend to use them as "plinkers") plus a champion with plasma pistol and upgrade weapon.  

 

Same goes for your bikes, though they should all have chainswords instead of pistols, IMHO, as they can't fire the pistols and their other guns.  So, either a 6 bike squad with special weapons of your choice (depends on your local meta) or 2x 3-bike squads with flamers or plasma.  In either case, the champion should be a power fist. 

 

On a similar vein, your rhino can take an another combi (be it bolter or weapon) and a havoc, so be sure to give it those.

 

For your cultists, you are better off with 2x 10-man mobs than the 1 bigger mob.  The real role for cultists is stickying objectives, and being able to do that in 2 places at once is much more valuable than the slight bump in durability you get from the larger squad.

 

For the hellbrute, I think you are better off giving it a twin lascannon rather than the hammer - I think the ability to reach out at range is better than the melee versatility and slightly boosted melee ability.  If you do want to go 2x melee, consider whether the versaility of the hammer is better than having another heavy flamer - if not, take another fist instead.

 

Lord Discordant is, unfortunately, still paying for being too good when it was released.  It is heavily over costed and without a real role.  Didn't stop me from just painting one, but I don't see mine getting much play this edition.

 

Venowcrawlers are good, and are better as a pair.  Obliterators are decent, but very expensive - so whether they go in  your list (let alone twice) will depend on what need they fill for you and what you have to take out as a result.

Edited May 13 by Dr_Ruminahui

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Cpt.Danjou said:

I don't use more than two Rhinos, even if they are cheap, 

 

Don't fall into the trap of bringing other units from the other cult armies, Noise marines, Berzerkers or Plague marines, as they don't get Dark pact. Good lord Noise Marines would be amazing with sustained hits on 5+ if in Pact-bound Zealots. 

I just need to chime in for these two points because they're wildly bad advice. 

1. Rhinos don't actually have terrible firepower for their points. 4-8 Bolter shots and S5 blast for the points is great for how durable they are as well. You probably won't NEED more than two, but they're absolutely not a trap. 

2. Outside Berserker Marines, Cult Marines are actually still good despite not getting Dark Pacts. Plague Marines already HAVE one of those rules (Lethal Hits) by default, Rubrics Marines are running Flamers to begin with and thus wont benefit from Dark Pacts outside the single Psychic attack and the assault cannon, and Noise Marines present a possibly superior alternative to Havocs since, for just 10 points more, you get an extra body with a heavy weapon. Six S10 D3 and twelve Heavy Bolter shots are still doing work into most targets, and frankly Havocs aren't the best anti-tank unit in the codex anyway. 

1 hour ago, Helias_Tancred said:

The additions I know I want to add are:

 

Cypher (because my other 40k collection are Dark Angels lol)

Haarken Worldclaimer (to lead the Raptor unit)

Chaos Rhino (for a total of two)

Chaos Vindicator (just too much of a cool hard hitting vehicle for them)

 

 

The ones that I consider but I'm not sure:

 

Chaos Land Raider

Chaos Terminator squad, which would give me two, but would I use two squads often?

 

 

Cypher is good, and Haarken is fine I guess if you REALLY want to use Raptors. Avoid the Land Raider and Terminators for now. 

[Helias_Tancred]

Thank you, that saves me some serious cash. 

 

 

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

Thank you, that saves me some serious cash. 

 

 

If you're looking to save cash, don't be afraid to use stuff like Facebook Marketplace or Craiglist. Also don't forget that 3rd party models exist as well if you need to bulk up your force. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Another way is to only buy what you need and can paint, and avoid as much as you can growing your "pile of gray" (aka pile of shame, but I don't judge).  

[Cpt.Danjou]

On 5/13/2025 at 4:40 PM, HeadlessCross said:

I just need to chime in for these two points because they're wildly bad advice. 

1. Rhinos don't actually have terrible firepower for their points. 4-8 Bolter shots and S5 blast for the points is great for how durable they are as well. You probably won't NEED more than two, but they're absolutely not a trap. 

2. Outside Berserker Marines, Cult Marines are actually still good despite not getting Dark Pacts. Plague Marines already HAVE one of those rules (Lethal Hits) by default, Rubrics Marines are running Flamers to begin with and thus wont benefit from Dark Pacts outside the single Psychic attack and the assault cannon, and Noise Marines present a possibly superior alternative to Havocs since, for just 10 points more, you get an extra body with a heavy weapon. Six S10 D3 and twelve Heavy Bolter shots are still doing work into most targets, and frankly Havocs aren't the best anti-tank unit in the codex anyway. 

 

 

Noise Marines are greater than Havocs killing mid range lower toughness targets, five or less, not a huge problem for CSM. The Blast master is ok wounding higher toughness things, but mostly wounds on 5+, while Havocs with lascannons wounds most high toughness targets on 4+, ignores all negative modifiers on a range of 48", and have Dark pact so they can get sustained hits. The difference between strength 10 and 12 is huge these days. They are different tools in our box, if your meta don't use vehicles or monsters, and on tiny boards, Noise Marines will be better. If your meta is as mine is filled with highly competitive players who bring Bloodthirsters, Great Unclean ones, Land fortresses, Leman Russes, Death Shroud terminators, Daemon primarchs, Falcons, Wave Serpents, Wraithlords, and other high toughness multi-wound units/vehicles/monsters with long range, deep strike or high movement. Havocs will be better, not the greatest in our toolbox, but still better than Noise marines for that. Different tools for different work, not comparable, which I never did, as I never mentioned Havocs. To safely bring those targets down, you will need other things.

 

I do agree that Plague Marines can be a tar-pit on an objective with their toughness of six, but don't have any extra rules, including contagion. it all depends what you are swapping them for, because you need to swap something for them. The competitive meta might change now when the new Death Guard codex is out. Sure three flamers rubrics with a cannon looks ok on paper, but with the pitiful range of 12",  will mean that they will be charged around a corner, and then they are gone, and they don't have any better close combat weapons that do anything extra. I wonder why Rubrics are not that common in Thousand sons lists, except as objective monkeys? The other problem Cult marines have is that they can't bring any character that can buff the unit.

 

So to make this easy to understand why I think CULTIST MARINES are a trap.

 

Whenever allying something into the CSM list, you are swapping out something else plus loosing Dark Pact on the unit. My opponents don't let me have infinite amount of points, So bringing a 100 point unit from another codex will mean that I loose 100 points of CSM. Some ally units are great, like Nurglings who are low cost screens with large footprints, great for crowding the back-field.

 

Cultist Marines can not take characters, to buff them or add more attacks.

 

Rhinos are NOT the traps that you so clearly state that I said, so you are WILDLY BAD at reading. What I said was that I don't use more than two. A Rhinos main objective is to transport units that can kill things in a fairly safe environment, but if you bring them as HeadlesCross claim they are, yes I am clearly reading something never said. as the greatest fire platform ever been created, you will loose. If he had been able to read and taken 2 minutes to go back in the thread, and had managed to read my previous post, he would have understood that I am clearly understanding that the Rhino can chew away some wounds with their weaponry. Multiple times I have said that units need Rhinos, but for every Rhino you bring you are loosing something else. 75 points might not be much, but often it can be the breaker between a squad of legionaries or a character. 

 

Cpt. D

Edited May 15 by Dr_Ruminahui
Removed inflammatory content

[MadEdric]

I'll add advice on Obliterators and Venom Crawlers, I use them often.

Venom Crawlers are fast, use that to their advantage. Their shooting is actually quite good with 12 shots from the cannons at 6,-1,2D. They can shred light infantry and when they can get the pacts going for sustained or lethal (or both if around a helbrute) can actually let them punch up in surprising ways. 

Obliterators are usually used as a deep strike threat to keep my opponent guessing. Being limited to 2 a squad is both a boon and a curse. It gives them a small foot print to allow deep striking most places you may want, but with only 2, the amount of shots will most likely seem very limiting, so you need to think smaller with them. They will not DS and eradicate a large tank (as DS will put them out of melta range), but choosing the right target and they can shine. You just got to think of them as bullies that want to go after the units that your opponent doesn't want in line of fire.  

[Helias_Tancred]

Building my Forgefiend with the two auto cannons and the ectoplasma cannon in the mouth is tempting given I could get Lethals, Sustained, or both with it (Helbrute nearby) but I think i'll still go with all ectoplasma. Any veteran thoughts on that?

 

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I would go with the ectoplasm, as chaos can struggle with higher toughness targets, and the strength boost helps against lighter vehicles like rhinos (where the better AP also helps).  That said, if you have a bunch of higher strength in your list such as lascannon havocs, or you mostly fight opponents where the strength difference doesn't matter, then the extra shots of the autocannons are probably better.

[MadEdric]

I have two Forgefiends. One is triple ecto, the other is the hades and jaws.

The triple ecto is a beast, and if you are going to use one, I'd recommend using that. It is great against hordes with blast, great against elites with high S, AP, and D (with blast still helping with a few extra shots), and good against light armor. Adding the 3rd ecto also helps against really swingy die rolls, evening out the randomness.

Hades cannons do give reliable shooting, I like to think of it as the Venom Crawler's big brother. While I do like to play it, it really doesn't match the ecto in shooting, but myself, I like to play different loadouts on my big units. Also since I play both Chaos and WE, I'm a little excited to see how the Hades and jaws workout with their new rules.

[Helias_Tancred]

ectoplasm it is. 

 

I also plan to do a lascannon & missile launcher Helbrute to pair with it.

 

I think there's lots of goodness to be had with that pairing.