New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Mandragola]

3 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

 

 I know you goonhammer folks don't give a tuppeny about promoting Heresy anymore, (5 Legion Focus out of 18 and none for over 2 years) but you actually have a degree of influence with GW as evidenced by asking the LI forum their opinions for a FAQ, so its quite alarming that someone like you is saying that you would tell the design team to port HH over to 10th. 

 

 

My bad for mentioning 10th - a system I don't actually play or particularly like. I just think GW should do something easy, like refining an existing system, rather than something difficult like designing a whole new one. I'm obviously not able to tell GW what to do with these decisions anyway. 

 

Sorry we haven't done more faction focuses. I personally don't have huge amounts of time to write articles so keeping on top of new releases and rules changes takes all my capacity.

[Corswain]

My big question now is will they keep the core box model like 2nd edition or will they move to launch box and various levels of starter like 40K and AoS.

Need to figure out if the bank account is in for a big hit or a huge hit....

[twopounder]

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

My bad for mentioning 10th - a system I don't actually play or particularly like. I just think GW should do something easy, like refining an existing system, rather than something difficult like designing a whole new one. I'm obviously not able to tell GW what to do with these decisions anyway. 

 

Sorry we haven't done more faction focuses. I personally don't have huge amounts of time to write articles so keeping on top of new releases and rules changes takes all my capacity.

10th was a whole new system. On top of partial rebuild of a whole new system that was 8 and 9. 

I don't think anyone wants HH to use 10th rules. HH 1 and 2 were exactly what you said - refining existing rules. Honestly, the D18 could be used for a variety of things not related to core gameplay mechanics. Or they could just do as I said earlier and triple the current stats so they could add a wider range of abilities without stacking special rules. For example, a dreadnought might get a D18 for its attacks against vehicles instead of str + d6. Or a sergeant could be BS 13 while the rest of the squad is BS 12 (4 * 3). That gives a small boost without a special rule.

Its hard to say at this point what that signifies

Heck, maybe they are going full 2nd ed and there will also be D4, D6 and D10 involved. Who knows? Well, the design team. I would assume they know.

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Corswain said:

My big question now is will they keep the core box model like 2nd edition or will they move to launch box and various levels of starter like 40K and AoS.

Need to figure out if the bank account is in for a big hit or a huge hit....

Specialist games so I'd wager the single box like mesbg. However, we'll see soon enough.

[Gorgoff]

I don't think the D18nhas anything to do with the new edition.

It's just a troll picture. 

 

Would be funny if they completely changed the system and make it based on it though. Imagine how many many of thousand dice worldwide would go to the :cuss:ter by that decision. 

[Pacific81]

I'm pretty sure the D18 is a joke based around the 18 Legions and asking us to guess which ones are going to be included in the set?

 

Not indicating a return of 2nd edition armour pen dice and all of the different dice formats lol

[StrangerOrders]

I honestly just thought it was the same joke some others have pointed out.

 

18, because Sallies are rumoured to be the launch loyalist scheme to go against IW (random match up btw).

 

On the point of the Dread foot, I admit that I am not sure what a 'heavy' Dread can bring to the table at this point that you don't get out of the Levi or Dere. I would have rather seen a fast boy tbh. Eager to be persuaded but atm I don't see the niche.

[Mandragola]

I don’t think having multiple sizes of starter would work for heresy. It would give you a too-efficient way to buy marinesx by just buying more and more core boxes. 
 

In 40K and AoS it works on the basis that you’ll only ever buy one of the boxes, as you’d be getting a bunch of useless duplicates if you got more, especially if you didn’t play both factions. For heresy the civil war aspect means you can use all the models in the box in one army.

 

Actually the rumoured contents of this box already seems more suited to multi-buying that the AoD box. Multiple Spartans and tens of cataphractii aren’t that useful for most armies but two or three dreadnoughts or turrets *could* make sense. Everyone needs more legionary bodies too. It looks like a set where it will make sense to get a couple, then swap or sell the stuff you don’t want. 

[gideon stargreave]

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

Multiple Spartans and tens of cataphractii aren’t that useful for most armies

I would buy the :cuss: out of a box that just had those in it

[Dagoth Ur]

13 hours ago, Mandragola said:

Personally I don’t think the rules matter a huge amount for heresy. The models, lore, painting and modelling are what it’s really about. If I was their design team I’d have either done a “big FAQ” and balance review or ported the whole thing to 10th. Designing a whole new substantially different game would require loads of effort with no guarantee that it would be better than what they had before. 

 

With all due respect for the Goonhammer content creators, but I think you'll find very little sympathy for an opinion like that in the HH community given that you went from having some fantastic HH articles during first edition to being happy to platform people that describe Horus Heresy as "a game that no sane person plays" and that a particular (and critical Mechanicum) release for it was "a little bit of charity, for the heresy freaks to get a release here and there, but I don't think we should encourage them too much. One lackluster release is about what they deserve."

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-roundtable-the-lvo-2025-gw-reveals/

 

The rules absolutely matter in the Horus Heresy because their granularity supports the plethora of options people turn into great creative projects. The crunch supports the fluff and vice versa, whereas this has been lost to a large degree in 40k from 8th edition onward. I think a large portion of anxiety in the community comes both from invalidation of books (which would suck but will eventually happen) and 30k morphing into something that in my experience a lot of 30k players are actually fleeing in droves (the rules design philosophy of 40k).

 

As for my 2 cents, I hope this will be something in the vein of 6th to 7th edition in terms of transition - largely still congruent but with some polish taken to it. They shouldn't be scared to address issues and patch up holes in the rules, but ideally we'd retain the ability to use our lovely books for a few more years to come.

Edited 8 hours ago by Dagoth Ur

[Matcap86]

3 hours ago, Dagoth Ur said:

 

With all due respect for the Goonhammer content creators, but I think you'll find very little sympathy for an opinion like that in the HH community given that you went from having some fantastic HH articles during first edition to being happy to platform people that describe Horus Heresy as "a game that no sane person plays" and that a particular (and critical Mechanicum) release for it was "a little bit of charity, for the heresy freaks to get a release here and there, but I don't think we should encourage them too much. One lackluster release is about what they deserve."

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-roundtable-the-lvo-2025-gw-reveals/

 

The rules absolutely matter in the Horus Heresy because their granularity supports the plethora of options people turn into great creative projects. The crunch supports the fluff and vice versa, whereas this has been lost to a large degree in 40k from 8th edition onward. I think a large portion of anxiety in the community comes both from invalidation of books (which would suck but will eventually happen) and 30k morphing into something that in my experience a lot of 30k players are actually fleeing in droves (the rules design philosophy of 40k).

 

As for my 2 cents, I hope this will be something in the vein of 6th to 7th edition in terms of transition - largely still congruent but with some polish taken to it. They shouldn't be scared to address issues and patch up holes in the rules, but ideally we'd retain the ability to use our lovely books for a few more years to come.

 

Wow that quote about Heresy players is probably meant tongue in cheek but that's kind of in bad taste.

Edited 5 hours ago by Matcap86

[Joe]

Comment about the Heresy community aside, I'm pretty certain one of the moderators nuked a post I made last year about the quality of the Goonhammer articles r.e. Heresy taking a nose dive off a cliff around the time the Shattered Legions and Blackshields rules came out, and how it just felt like the authors were only here to take pot shots now. It wasn't a good look at the time.

[Gorgoff]

One pictures says more than thousand words. This is how the usual 40k table looks like in my 60+men gaming club:

 

Do I want that?

 

[StratoKhan]

The guy who made the comment about Heresy ‘freaks’ seems to delete people’s comments a lot. Guess when HH3 drops I won’t be going there to get their take on things.

 

Anyhow, who is actually looking forward to a few more weeks of the drip feed approach? It was cute up to now, but… can we just have the reveal soon?

 

I’m wondering how long before I get tired of this, and I think that I’m probably ok with one more round. Then basta.

[twopounder]

6 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

One pictures says more than thousand words. This is how the usual 40k table looks like in my 60+men gaming club:

 

Do I want that?

 

And I'm sure there armies are in a similar state of completion. 

 

If they break HH, they may lose a lot of artisan players. 

[Joe]

11 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

One pictures says more than thousand words. This is how the usual 40k table looks like in my 60+men gaming club:

 

Do I want that?

 

 

Does your club actually provide the majority of terrain for use or is it up to the players to provide it? Because if it's not the former you're club is doing something deeply wrong.

In a similar vein NOVA, AdeptiCon, LVO, etc have all had the same issue with terrain in the past - lugging plastic terrain around isn't the most practical thing in the world, which is why cheap polystyrene and cardboard terrain was used for years on end, at least until the lasercut card stuff started picking up popularity.

 

Every good club or LGS I've been to has provided terrain themselves; with players supporting where they can. 

[Mogger351]

18 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

One pictures says more than thousand words. This is how the usual 40k table looks like in my 60+men gaming club:

 

Do I want that?

 

To be fair neither do 40k players.

[Gorgoff]

3 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

Does your club actually provide the majority of terrain for use or is it up to the players to provide it?

 

We have enough scenic terrain to fit at least 12 ton14 tables with dense terrain from cities to woods so no the tables don't have to look like thar but they specifically want that terrain because the rulebooks demand this. 

Crazy

 

[Mogger351]

3 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

 

We have enough scenic terrain to fit at least 12 ton14 tables with dense terrain from cities to woods so no the tables don't have to look like thar but they specifically want that terrain because the rulebooks demand this. 

Crazy

 

This is again misrepresentation. The tournament packets require this, the game nor the rulebook advocate for it. Due to the LoS rules ruins and bases are the go-to and a slight requirement. It's been a criticism of 10th ed throughout.

 

Conversely you have to recall it's not a game balanced around mass 3+ forces and the old cover saves, ap is plentiful and disproportionately impacts the lower available range of saves.

 

Neither system is right or perfect. HH works better given the context of its game, because it has less to work or balance around.

[TheVoidDragon]

In a way I hope the "saturnine terminator" isn't actually a thing, because it isn't actually a thing. It's a set of terminator armour that has been mentioned in like 2 novels that has never had any official depiction, yet it's been claimed over and over and over that those classic terminator miniatures are "saturnine" despite that not once having been officially stated, but it's been parroted so much that's just taken as fact regardless. Even to the extent that there's a piece of artwork that's commonly called "Saturnine" despite it outright being a new suit of prototype terminator armour made by Vulkan. It also misses that saturnine is one of the latest patterns, not some sort of early retro version.

It's just a small thing and I do think that original style is quite cool, but it's still somewhat an annoyance if it becames a canon thing and yet more ascended memelore based on false information.

[MARK0SIAN]

I’m loving the Hearsay site, it’s one of GW rarer successes in terms of building hype in that I’m not also finding it super frustrating. It must be quite a fun thing to put together for the people at GW. 
 

I’m definitely in the camp that’s hoping for rules tweak and a bit of a rebalance of things rather than any major changes. Generally I like the game and think it’s in a good spot where the issues can be fixed without needing a rewrite of the whole game. 
 

My personal wishlist would be:

 

1) A rework of the Rites of War, particularly the Legion specific ones. There’s just too great a variance in how worthwhile they are.

 

2) An upwards points adjustment for some things like dreads and lascannons

 

3) Bikes going to T5 again

 

4) A little help for vehicles, they feel quite fragile so maybe an adjustment to the damage table

5) Hold the line reaction is too powerful given how many abilities key off a non-disordered charge. Maybe hold the line should give the unit the counterattack rule instead. 
 

6) Challenges and Chosen warrior need rethinking. Wounds should spill out of a challenge and chosen warrior needs to be used more sparingly. 
 

Other than that it needs a general balance pass but most of those are fairly minor adjustments in the grand scheme of things.

 

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

This is again misrepresentation. The tournament packets require this, the game nor the rulebook advocate for it. Due to the LoS rules ruins and bases are the go-to and a slight requirement. It's been a criticism of 10th ed throughout.

 

Neither system is right or perfect. HH works better given the context of its game, because it has less to work or balance around.

 

Its not misrepresentation when it's a common sight on many gaming tables. It may not be required but the board sizes aren't. However, I don't see games that don't use minimum table sizes - 44x60" or the terrain layouts. 

 

Conversely when we play heresy we use whatever terrain setups we want and it works. As I said back when GW fell into bed with whichever tournament circuit it was, I was worried then about the tournamentification of 40k and 10th really is the epitome of it. Heresy is in a much healthier place as a game. 

24 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

In a way I hope the "saturnine terminator" isn't actually a thing, because it isn't actually a thing. It's a set of terminator armour that has been mentioned in like 2 novels that has never had any official depiction, yet it's been claimed over and over and over that those classic terminator miniatures are "saturnine" despite that not once having been officially stated, but it's been parroted so much that's just taken as fact regardless. Even to the extent that there's a piece of artwork that's commonly called "Saturnine" despite it outright being a new suit of prototype terminator armour made by Vulkan. It also misses that saturnine is one of the latest patterns, not some sort of early retro version.

It's just a small thing and I do think that original style is quite cool, but it's still somewhat an annoyance if it becames a canon thing and yet more ascended memelore based on false information.

Its in one of the timelines somewhere that talks about it in official GW publications. Its a thing and about to completely be a thing.

[01RTB01]

8 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I’m loving the Hearsay site, it’s one of GW rarer successes in terms of building hype in that I’m not also finding it super frustrating. It must be quite a fun thing to put together for the people at GW. . 

 

Other than that it needs a general balance pass but most of those are fairly minor adjustments in the grand scheme of things.

 

Artificer sergeant death would have me happy.

[Mogger351]

Just now, 01RTB01 said:

 

Its not misrepresentation when it's a common sight on many gaming tables. It may not be required but the board sizes aren't. However, I don't see games that don't use minimum table sizes - 44x60" or the terrain layouts. 

 

Conversely when we play heresy we use whatever terrain setups we want and it works. As I said back when GW fell into bed with whichever tournament circuit it was, I was worried then about the tournamentification of 40k and 10th really is the epitome of it. Heresy is in a much healthier place as a game. 

It's the people though, we play 40k on a 6x4 and with a mix of terrain.

 

I don't think either game is healthier, I don't think the community for either is healthier or healthy for the game to be honest.

 

40k suffers from a mindless adherence to tournament play and 30k has a lot of cantankerous stubborn people who treat it like a perfect historical game. Neither is good.

[Redcomet]

11 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

It's the people though, we play 40k on a 6x4 and with a mix of terrain.

 

I don't think either game is healthier, I don't think the community for either is healthier or healthy for the game to be honest.

 

40k suffers from a mindless adherence to tournament play and 30k has a lot of cantankerous stubborn people who treat it like a perfect historical game. Neither is good.

This.

Extremes being the most vocal, and thus the most heard is never a good thing. Having a culture that either only rewards net lists and waac’ing, or a culture where you get scorned for using a certain mark of power armor where it isn’t “historically” accurate, are both doomed to ruin the game if left to fester.