New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants said:

So who is everybody's legion of choice? I'm very much considering Deathguard. I love the lore and colour scheme.  This box will be an evergreen release they seemed to indicate. I missed out on the previous HH starter set, but may very well pull the pin on this one and make a purchase once the dust settles.

My Death Guard will love those. So far they only have 40 odd marines in mk3 and I planned them to have only infantry and dreadnoughts anyway (apart from my two Kratossossososos) and the new Saturnine stuff fits in nicely. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Gorgoff

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Well, I sold 12 armies to finance me migrating across the globe ... if we're going into that territory.

 

But the pic Gorgoff posted above, combined with the talk in the 'preview' stream, man, I dunno.

 

S6 T6 W6 saturnine praetor, plus weapons that do 3 (or more ?) damage ... it all sounds like 40k evolutionary cycle to me.

 

But I hope that I'm wrong, really do.

 

 

 

EDIT:  Sneaky Gorgoff. Was reypling to 01RTB01 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Unknown Legionnaire

[Marshal Loss]

35 minutes ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

Cataphractii redone?

 

Sure looks that way - really hope that Mark IV (and Tartaros) isn't too far behind!

[Burni]

40 minutes ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

Cataphractii redone?

Surely the least required redo? Scale was pretty good compared to the new stuff.

 

Can’t see them selling many of these, especially as almost all HH players would have got some in the 2.0 box.

 

I really hope we see a Tartaros redo soon as well, that really needs it scale wise. It was comical when they showed it against the Saturnine in the reveal. 

[Matcap86]

Random idea, not a complete Cataphracti kit redo, but a generic Praetor in Cataphracti armour with multiple weapon options?

 

[Brother Kraskor]

I'm pretty excited about all Melee weapons getting an Initiative modifier. Really opens up nuance, and forces more thinking about target selection beyond just Unwieldy and the very occasional Reach (1).  

[Corswain]

49 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

Random idea, not a complete Cataphracti kit redo, but a generic Praetor in Cataphracti armour with multiple weapon options?

 

Could be. Could be a character model. Definitely looks Cataphractii but beyond that anything is possible.

[Valkyrion]

I'm happy with the (re)introduction of more characteristics. More doesn't necessarily mean complicated, the CL, WP and IN just seem variations of leadership (2d6, equal or under).

Used wisely it adds nice flavour - like 'i'm so angry I'm never running away from fight' doesn't automatically mean that same unit won't be 'lads, let's not walk into the fire of those 9 quad heavy bolters, yeah?'. 

 

I'm less in favour of a damage stat, because GW are rarely able to control themselves and something will be broken upon release and might never get fixed. 

But mainly I'm against it because it shouldn't be needed in a game where usually only two or three models have more than 3 wounds anyway, and tend to be targets of high strength (i.e instant death weaponry).  You have massed fire, brutal and instant death as nuanced ways to kill things and each has their place and appropriate usage. 

 

But more beans are needed before passing wind judgment, and I go into 3.0 with optimism born of simply being a fan and hoping it works.

 

 

[Mogger351]

10 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

I'm happy with the (re)introduction of more characteristics. More doesn't necessarily mean complicated, the CL, WP and IN just seem variations of leadership (2d6, equal or under).

Used wisely it adds nice flavour - like 'i'm so angry I'm never running away from fight' doesn't automatically mean that same unit won't be 'lads, let's not walk into the fire of those 9 quad heavy bolters, yeah?'. 

 

I'm less in favour of a damage stat, because GW are rarely able to control themselves and something will be broken upon release and might never get fixed. 

But mainly I'm against it because it shouldn't be needed in a game where usually only two or three models have more than 3 wounds anyway, and tend to be targets of high strength (i.e instant death weaponry).  You have massed fire, brutal and instant death as nuanced ways to kill things and each has their place and appropriate usage. 

 

But more beans are needed before passing wind judgment, and I go into 3.0 with optimism born of simply being a fan and hoping it works.

 

 

Im not sure how having 4 leadership stats isn't added complication. You could add flavour by having a battle tech style damage sheet for every model on the table, its just and abstraction of wounds to add depth. It 100% would be additional complication and detract from the game experience.

 

Either they're so rarely used and of niche application as to not he worth adding, or they're frequent and relevant enough that they add more layers and subsequent rules on top.

 

Conversely the damage stats effectively replaces or minimises brutal and instant death, reducing rule overhead for little loss.

[Mandragola]

Personally I do like the damage stat. I don’t think Brutal was a particularly good way of handling the need to handle multiple damage, particularly when it could also cause instant death. It made it virtually impossible to save.

 

The current situation makes Dreadnoughts extremely tough, even against weapons like meltas that can one-shot big tanks. It’ll be much better if their durability is brought closer in line, though I am *not* saying we should throw away the vehicle rules altogether. 

[Valkyrion]

I don't mean that they are four leadership stats, I mean that the way the rule works looks to be the same way LD works - you roll 2D6 and require equal or under a particular stat. 

That isn't more complicated, it's the same rule process just used for different things. 

 

Similarly, the damage stat isn't a complication issue, it's an existence issue. It's very existence is potentially worrisome because GW designers simply cannot restrain themselves well enough to use it sensibly and we'll end up with weapons that can cause more damage than they should be able to meaning that wounds need to increase, making D1 less useful,  meaning a change in the games ecosystem. It might not pan out that way, but it often does. 

[son of the forest]

1 hour ago, Matcap86 said:

Random idea, not a complete Cataphracti kit redo, but a generic Praetor in Cataphracti armour with multiple weapon options?

 

I'd say most likely not just based on how much extra detail characters both generic and named tend to have these days, the armour looks very plain. Could be wrong though as that fits iron warriors as a legion 

[Brother Kraskor]

I feel Damage is scary because we don't trust GW to not mess it up. Done properly, I agree with others above that it addresses eg. dreads, melta weapons being more destructive than lasguns etc. without being quite as binary as Brutal or nothing. 
 

I like the split Ld too. It makes me think of Kakophoni as an example - extremely unlikely to bend under fire, so maybe a high Cool stat. But they literally revolve around wilful self indulgence, so maybe poor Willpower. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Brother Kraskor

[Antarius]

38 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

I'm happy with the (re)introduction of more characteristics. More doesn't necessarily mean complicated, the CL, WP and IN just seem variations of leadership (2d6, equal or under).

Used wisely it adds nice flavour - like 'i'm so angry I'm never running away from fight' doesn't automatically mean that same unit won't be 'lads, let's not walk into the fire of those 9 quad heavy bolters, yeah?'. 

 

I'm less in favour of a damage stat, because GW are rarely able to control themselves and something will be broken upon release and might never get fixed. 

But mainly I'm against it because it shouldn't be needed in a game where usually only two or three models have more than 3 wounds anyway, and tend to be targets of high strength (i.e instant death weaponry).  You have massed fire, brutal and instant death as nuanced ways to kill things and each has their place and appropriate usage. 

 

But more beans are needed before passing wind judgment, and I go into 3.0 with optimism born of simply being a fan and hoping it works.

 

 

I feel sort of the same. If they had given regular marines two wounds I might be less apprehensive, but having multi-damage weapons just seems like it might go bad places fast (unless vehicles get a massive bump, anyway).

Apart from that, I'm cautiously optimistic - I think the models look really good and I can just headcanon some other reason than the official "suddenly, Saturnine" explanation for why every legion has these suits (I'll probably just go with, yeah, they've always been there or something like that).

Whether I'll ever get my army done and whether I'll ever play a game remains to be seen, so I'm definitely not rushing out to buy the army books.

Edited 8 hours ago by Antarius

[Lord Marshal]

Brutal and the like already existed as proto-Damage stats, so I'm not too worried. 

 

That won't stop the ragebait and doomposting youtubers from telling us Heresy 3e is already dead out of the gate though of course.

[MoriyaSchism]

3 hours ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

Cataphractii redone?

The armour plates seem mostly the same but the biggest difference is in the front thigh plates. They seem to have a tasset hanging from the hip that goes over the lower thigh plate. The hand looks a bit small for a terminator. The size of the hand on the Volkite Charger makes it seem like it's from a regular infantry upgrade set and not a terminator weapon frame. Something about the way how the hand sits inside that vambrace doesn't seem right to me. Hard to tell at this point, the whole arm might be redesigned to make more sense anatomically but the hand still seems like a normal power armour gauntlet. Wish they showed the whole model instead.

[Astartes Consul]

55 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

Brutal and the like already existed as proto-Damage stats, so I'm not too worried. 

 

That won't stop the ragebait and doomposting youtubers from telling us Heresy 3e is already dead out of the gate though of course.

Guess it still depends on how restrained they’ve been with it though? I agree that it just seems like Brutal, but that was a very limited mechanic. 

[Marshal Loss]

3 hours ago, Brother Kraskor said:

I'm pretty excited about all Melee weapons getting an Initiative modifier. Really opens up nuance, and forces more thinking about target selection beyond just Unwieldy and the very occasional Reach (1).  

 

Agreed! I'm also really interested to see what EC (both non-Hereticus & Hereticus, assuming they still do two sets of rules) look like given these changes.

  

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

That won't stop the ragebait and doomposting youtubers from telling us Heresy 3e is already dead out of the gate though of course.

 

It's wild. I had some people on the Warhammer30k subreddit message me things I won't reproduce here because I said I had no concern about the designers turning 30k into a copy of 40k. I love a good moan but some people just need to go outside

Edited 7 hours ago by Marshal Loss

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

5 hours ago, FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants said:

So who is everybody's legion of choice? I'm very much considering Deathguard. I love the lore and colour scheme.  This box will be an evergreen release they seemed to indicate. I missed out on the previous HH starter set, but may very well pull the pin on this one and make a purchase once the dust settles.

 

Mine is SoH. I love the color scheme of the units,and the details in their armors.

I was thinking to add the Saturnines with the 1st company color scheme. In black and gold with red and steel details they can look awesome.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

13 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

GW gamers need to find the resolve to divorce from GW rules.

 

We can write our own, and have a better game.

As soon as you don´t include alternate activations as a gaming company you lose my interest in your rule book. Reactions are just not good enough as a replacement.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

The practical of that is my friends just won't play. Working men with families in our 40s... ain't nobody got time for that... to do the job of a gaming company for them.

 

People are just lining up other games and being done with it. Trench Crusade for example.

The 9th Age crowd has managed to write a rule system as a replacement for WHFB. Where there is a will, there is a way. 

[Captain Idaho]

15 hours ago, crimsondave said:

You could keep playing 2.0 if you don’t like it.  I would think that would be way easier within the HH community than the 40K one and there are a fair number of folks playing earlier versions of that.

 

15 hours ago, Scribe said:

Other communities find ways to do it, its honestly weird at this point that GW gamers are so slaved to bad rule sets.

 

I appreciate the creative freedom in this principle, but really most people don't play old games. That's why they make new editions and everyone plays them.

 

Or they just quit.

 

My mates aren't going to put work into an old game no longer supported and have to debate rules inconsistencies etc. They'll just shrug and move on.

 

***

 

Anyway, with a damage stat included, more wounds needs to be a thing or else even a Centurion will die to a meek hit.

 

Don't like the idea vehicles have wounds though. It can work well enough if Toughness is high enough and we don't have the silly "every weapon can wounds every model" thing.

 

But then we might still get the usual problem of 40K where units with massed D2 weapons can kill vehicles when they're intended to kill infantry.

 

Fingers crossed, brothers. (And Sisters - got to be some Sisters of Silence here)

3 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

The 9th Age crowd has managed to write a rule system as a replacement for WHFB. Where there is a will, there is a way. 

 

And it's practically dead now Fantasy exists.

 

If the game is dead then sure, create a fan based ruleset so we can carry on. If it ain't... like Heresy... it's pointless fan service.

Edited 3 hours ago by Captain Idaho

[PerfectChocolateMadeleine]

5 hours ago, FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants said:

So who is everybody's legion of choice? I'm very much considering Deathguard. I love the lore and colour scheme.  This box will be an evergreen release they seemed to indicate. I missed out on the previous HH starter set, but may very well pull the pin on this one and make a purchase once the dust settles.

going to get the core of my Emperor's Children army with this box, though I might sell the Saturnine stuff, but Mk II is my favorite power armor mark!! Even though I prefer the old look they still look great and it's all very exciting :D.

 

I do hope this new edition will allow something close to the Brethren of Iron RoW that I had planned to use, but I'm not worried as it seems they're allowing for more freedom in list organization. I just hope it isn't TOO "do whatever you want"-y because I quite like the fun of making a list work with semi-restrictive rules, it's like a puzzle.

[Brother Kraskor]

56 minutes ago, Marshal Loss said:

 

Agreed! I'm also really interested to see what EC (both non-Hereticus & Hereticus, assuming they still do two sets of rules) look like given these changes.

  

Yes exactly. Adds a whole layer of thinking, precise fine-tuning of matchups - so very EC. And the new duelling mechanics too! 
 

I'm actually hopeful they just do away with the second set of rules. There's just no need for it, it creates a whole host of rules interaction issues (Legiones Astartes imperfectly replaced by Legiones Hereticus) and doesn't add much flavour really. Just needs a very simple rule whereby you can only field one flavour of Fulgrim and job's a fish.

[Corswain]

6 hours ago, FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants said:

So who is everybody's legion of choice?

World Eaters. New Edition, new army for me.  At least for the MKII.

They look good in MKII and that Assault Marine chainaxe is really making the nails bite.

 

Not sure what I will do with the rest oitthe set but the Araknae will almost certainly get painted up in Iron Warriors colours. Seems like it's natual home.