New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Marshal Rohr]

28 minutes ago, jaxom said:

who probably has a Cool of 20; he’s so cool you could store a ice cream in him.

The Khan’s cool is so high you have to light up a cigarette when you make the roll. 

[dicebod]

24 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

But both those actions were a choice they made. The player won’t get to choose between a sensible retreat or a last stand. Taking away that agency from a player when they’re supposed to be playing a mythical hero is just not fun or thematic. And it’ll especially suck if sweeping advance is still a thing. 
 

 

I mean, we only have a tiny slice of the rules and the interactions. We don't know for sure how Primarchs will interact with morale beyond this snippet and a few numbers. It may be a little early to jump to conclusions.

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, MARK0SIAN said:

But both those actions were a choice they made. The player won’t get to choose between a sensible retreat or a last stand. Taking away that agency from a player when they’re supposed to be playing a mythical hero is just not fun or thematic. And it’ll especially suck if sweeping advance is still a thing. 
 

 

I understand what you are saying but the game doesn’t allow you to “be” the character to that extent, it allows you to command the character.

 

A compelling narrative requires a degree of unpredictability, therefore it stands to reason that a compelling narrative game rule set would strive to provide the same. 

[MARK0SIAN]

42 minutes ago, dicebod said:

I mean, we only have a tiny slice of the rules and the interactions. We don't know for sure how Primarchs will interact with morale beyond this snippet and a few numbers. It may be a little early to jump to conclusions.

I’m not sure what jump there is. The article seems pretty clear that Primarchs can fail morale checks or there’d be no need to give Horus Ascended a leadership of 14.

[Lord Marshal]

They fixed the Initiative.

 

[dicebod]

9 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I’m not sure what jump there is. The article seems pretty clear that Primarchs can fail morale checks or there’d be no need to give Horus Ascended a leadership of 14.

True, but we have no idea what failing morale means for *anyone*, much less a Primarch. Will they run? Will they just have a debuff to the next round of combat? No one knows, so there's no point in worrying about it until we know more.

And that's before even touching on the fact that immunity to morale is applied completely unevenly. All space marines "know no fear," but they can run away. Same with lobotomized tech thralls with no will of their own.

[BitsHammer]

14 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I’m not sure what jump there is. The article seems pretty clear that Primarchs can fail morale checks or there’d be no need to give Horus Ascended a leadership of 14.

True but we may see them get other rules to mitigate psychology like rerolling the lowest, or not being able to be modified below a 10 or any number of other things.

 

We know they can be affected by psychology, but we don't know if there is more to if for Primarchs since they've always had extra rules above and beyond other units.

 

  

1 minute ago, dicebod said:

True, but we have no idea what failing morale means for *anyone*, much less a Primarch. Will they run? Will they just have a debuff to the next round of combat? No one knows, so there's no point in worrying about it until we know more.

And that's before even touching on the fact that immunity to morale is applied completely unevenly. All space marines "know no fear," but they can run away. Same with lobotomized tech thralls with no will of their own.

Honestly I think the intent isn't that they know fear in the game, but rather they can weigh the situation and make choices to fall back because the situation is unwinnable otherwise and does nothing to accomplish their objectives.

 

And honestly Primarichs should be able to do that too. I get that we want our Primarchs to be most dangerous thing on the table (or peak goblin mode for my fellow Curze enjoyers) but they aren't unthinking bricks who don't know when falling back is the right call when things are going against them. For all we know they'll be unsweepable and just have a chance of breaking from a combat they're losing over being stuck in fights they don't want to be in all game as someone plays "pin the Primarch in melee" again.

Edited Monday at 05:42 PM by BitsHammer

[Vazzy]

12 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Jack is part of the narrative UK scene and has a podcast about narrative army building. No EOs would allow a Primaris army at an event people pay money for, but no one is kicking them out of stores if they show up for a pick up game. That whole controversy stemmed from people throwing [redacted] at the walls because people were turned away from events for proxies but the events were billed as weekend narrative campaigns. Jack uses converted Primaris in his armies, the issue isn’t the Primaris themselves, it was the Twitter and Reddit losers hammering on about Gatekeeping at the height of the Arch drama. 
 

It’s like showing up to a “Trains of the 1800s” event with a maglev. What are you doing here. Go to an event that has all trains. It’s more arbitrary side picking where there’s already communities to join and be a part of. 

That’s not quite what it was lol. Jack crashed out about my Dark Angels Praetor I put together and heavily converted to match the scale of the Tortuga models o was using for the AD event. I was pretty pissed off about the whole thing as I put a lot of effort into the conversions across the whole army and didn’t appreciate the implications laid out in his post.
 

 

On topic, 3.0 I hope 3.0 is good for my old heresy friends, but hopefully not so good I hear the sirens call and am drawn back into GWs embrace. I’ve saved so much money shifting to historicals lol. 

Edited Monday at 05:50 PM by Vazzy

[MARK0SIAN]

34 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

I understand what you are saying but the game doesn’t allow you to “be” the character to that extent, it allows you to command the character.

 

A compelling narrative requires a degree of unpredictability, therefore it stands to reason that a compelling narrative game rule set would strive to provide the same. 

Part of the draw of the Horus Heresy is getting to play out these legendary events on the table and play with those legendary characters. It was a huge driver when 40k had no Primarchs in it. The models should try to emulate the fluff to a certain degree and for a centrepiece model like a Primarch they should be closer to the fluff than, for example a tactical marine. 
 

Imagine how naff it would feel if you wanted to play Angron but he was terrible in close combat? Or if Magnus wasn’t very good at psychic abilities? 

Primarchs have traditionally been exempt from so many rules precisely because that was appropriate to make them live up to their mythos. 

 

I may be being overly pessimistic but it’s because I honestly can’t think of a worse feels bad moment for a player than for your Primarch to break and flee combat. 

Edited Monday at 05:55 PM by MARK0SIAN

[Corswain]

1 hour ago, BitsHammer said:

It's not fleeing. It's advancing in reverse.

 

Unless you're Night Lords. They're fleeing.

[Waaagh?]

58 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

They fixed the Initiative.

 

They've bumped the wounds up to 3. Good thing too if we're going to see more multiple damage weapons.

 

TBF I always thought it was odd the centurion had the same amount of wounds as a veteran.

[BitsHammer]

39 minutes ago, Corswain said:

 

Unless you're Night Lords. They're fleeing.

It's just the better part of valor. 

[Gorgoff]

30 minutes ago, Waaagh? said:

They've bumped the wounds up to 3. Good thing too if we're going to see more multiple damage weapons.

 

TBF I always thought it was odd the centurion had the same amount of wounds as a veteran.

I found it was odd that Veterans got the same amount as a Centurion. 

 

Gifting two wounds two units like candy was an absolute mistake in my book because it invalidated all units without two wounds. 

Anyway with damage values in the game those units get nerfed so maybe the difference is no more. 

[DuskRaider]

6 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

Yeah, Bligh clearly had a love for historical wargames he put into his work.

He and the team built around him did such memorable work that it’s left a massive void in the lore IMO. They didn’t always write the best rules, but they were always fun and the lore was the best we’ve ever had. He is quite missed.  

[Nephaston]

4 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I may be being overly pessimistic but it’s because I honestly can’t think of a worse feels bad moment for a player than for your Primarch to break and flee combat. 

A tad pessimistic, considering they all start at LD12 so they auto pass their checks until they get clocked with some negative modifiers. Though how these modifiers apply and if they even can apply is still up in the air. Can't really conclude fearless isn't gonna be a thing as well just from the numbers, though it might be changed to just ignore Fear(X) and prevent some reactions.

[Marshal Loss]

Early days, but looks neat. Hope they give us a nice range of weapon profiles in the subsequent article later this week. 

[TheTrans]

Ok.. so 'mental' stats can now go up to 12, which is fantastic! Gives more range and variation between models etc, fantastic, means maybe we can have some well trained mortals... oh..oh  nope.. a basic legionary is still 7s across the board... so that means poor old Mortals are going to get absolutely smashed when it comes to any 'mental' based stuff...

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Which mortals ? 

[TheTrans]

10 minutes ago, Unknown Legionnaire said:

Which mortals ? 

Standard human troops.. which reading the writing on the wall... will probabl only be Solar Aux in any meaningful way this edition. 

[Castellan Wulfrik]

Am I the only one most interested in seeing if they made changes to how weapon skill works. In 2.0 the gap between increments was too big, the unit with the higher weapon skill would typically perform a one-sided massacre of anything below them. I genuinely think it's the most overlooked issue in terms of it's effects. 

[TheTrans]

40 minutes ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

Am I the only one most interested in seeing if they made changes to how weapon skill works. In 2.0 the gap between increments was too big, the unit with the higher weapon skill would typically perform a one-sided massacre of anything below them. I genuinely think it's the most overlooked issue in terms of it's effects. 

Spot on mate, the hitting on 5's should be 2 pips difference, not 1. It completely gutted non-marine forces!

[Gorgoff]

Inhave some tough pills to swallow for y'all. 

1. Humans should get massacred in close combst against astartes unless they outnumber them big time.

2. Humans should have instead other things going on for them. Aome other bonus only they have which makes up for it.

3. Solar Auxilia always had been the army with a ridiculously high leadership in both 1ed and 2ed so I don't understand anyone who fears they won't get anything like it in 3ed as well. I expect them to have higher leadership than astartes but lower cool.

4. The disparity between WS isn't a problem, having too many units with ws5 is.

5. Claiming any units without Ws5 cannot perfom is wrong, plain and simple. That's a skill issue not a games issue imho. You can't expect expect regular grunts to beat the best of the best units in close combat. 

6. The regular Astartes is just a lowly grunt in this game. That's the baseline how this game works. They have their uses but yelling HUZZAH and running at a unit of Varagyr isn't it. 

7. Mental stats can go up to 14. They said it in the article. 

8. We know almost nothing about the new edition. This is way to early to start digging in the salt mine. Just wait and see. When we have the full product in our hands we try it and THEN we start complaining based on the whole picture. ;)

 

[Unknown Legionnaire]

I wholeheartedly agree with your assesment of the close combat / WS and Astartes vs. non-Astartes parts.

 

But I still fear they will nerf non-Astartes factions and / or remove 'lesser' factions like Militia, DotR etc.

 

And while I like the return of the CL / WP / INT stats from Rogue Trader, I am appaled by the new weapon profiles and the potential multi-wound shenanigans.

Personally, I don't want to see a Saturnine Praetor with 6 wounds tbh.

[derLumpi]

Why do you think they slash lesser factions? 

[Unknown Legionnaire]

3 minutes ago, derLumpi said:

Why do you think they slash lesser factions? 

 

Why ? Because they believe those factions don't make them any money.

 

GW are a pure miniatures / product company. They don't care if the rules for a certain game line are good / balanced / playable.

 

But for every militia army I have seen that was made of mostly non-GW parts, there was one made from mostly GW stuff as well.

Like DKoK or Navy Breachers, like old metal Vostroyans or even silly Tzaangor cult forces.

But it's not the market / crowd GW caters too.

I am crossing my fingers they'll do pdfs for lesser factions like they did in 2.0 but I am not holding my breath for it.