New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Matcap86]

41 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

It wouldn’t be Warhammer if two players did read the same words and fight about what they mean

 

To be fair it's called Warhammer, not Agreehammer.

[arnesh88]

9 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

Every Legion is now cosplaying as Death Guard in HH 3.0. I wonder what the DG Legion trait will be as it needs to be different.

If the DG ruled stayed the same, then they can move and gain the Heavy(X) benefit. Not as huge as a difference as 2nd edition, but still a significant one. At the same time, the DG legion rule was one of the more contentious ones because players wanted them to be more durable instead of more mobile.

I do question on now that we know what the Pinned status is supposed to do, what exactly is the wording for it? Are they simply prevented from not moving, thus allowing units to benefit from the Heavy(X) rule? Or can they not move and still count as moving, preventing benefitting from Heavy(X)?

Edited Friday at 04:01 PM by arnesh88

[Naryn]

I really like the changes to profiles, removing ambiguity is always a good thing. Initiative modifiers is a neat concept, and in a vaccuum I like the idea of Heavy being able to buff different stats. I can see it being hard to remember which heavy(xyz) your specific model has, but it'll.become second-nature eventually. Broadly speaking very optimistic about this preview.

[Stitch5000]

1 minute ago, arnesh88 said:

I do question on now that we know the Pinned rule, the wording of that Status matters. Are they simply prevented from not moving, thus allowing units to benefit from the Heavy(X) rule? Or can they not move and still count as moving, preventing benefitting from Heavy(X)?

It stands to reason that if it's the first thing you thought of, somebody else will have thought of it, right?

[Brother Kraskor]

Drop Podding Multi-meltas will ruin literally anything! 

 

Edit: As will Multi-melta jetbikes for that matter! 

Edited Friday at 04:59 PM by Brother Kraskor

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Heavy for a guy in power armor shouldn't be a "He can't shoot" thing, that doesn't make any sense these are genetically modified super soldiers, they can fire a gun once a turn; anything that they couldn't would be mounted to either a dread or a vehicle of some sort.

But now, lets say, for Solar Auxilia, they could have Heavy (FP) and a standard firing of 0 shots on their man portable heavy weapon.  Meaning that if they held still, they can fire, but if they don't, they don't get to shoot.  I like that Heavy can mean different things to different profiles.

 

I agree that the implementation of heavy seems way more granular than in 10th and can reflect a large variety of things. Hopefully it's implemented the way you say with non Marines and all that.

 

But i disagree on the "it not making sense" part. It depends on how you think of things. One marine is carrying and shooting a vehicle grade weapon by himself, while a human usually needed two people to move and shoot the same weapon. A vehicle with its better systems can move a limited amount and shoot all it's weapons, or move a medium amount and shoot one at optimal capacity. It scales up pretty well imo.

 

Quote

That's effectively how heavy weapons worked in 1e and 2e though: Heavy weapons always hit on a 6 unless they stand still, which is a huge bonus.

 

 

This isn't ideal, but being able to move and have reduced effectivenss shooting will at least let some other heavy wapons see the table - multimeltas will be terrifying now. 

 

@Xenith let me reframe it. I enjoy the systems where the players incur harsh penalties or have to make very meaningful trade offs instead of starting at a good base level and accruing bonuses. I find it more meaningful for decision making and it can affect the game much more if you make the wrong decision. As i said, the good+bonus version can lead to way more ease of application, while also smoothing out variance. I don't play modern 40k because it's so smoothed out, reliable, and hyper lethal.

 

Also multi meltas were insane in 2nd. They only sucked in 1st because of the 5th to 6th vehicle damage table change paired with flare shields.

Edited Friday at 04:56 PM by SkimaskMohawk

[DemonGSides]

2 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I agree that the implementation of heavy seems way more granular than in 10th and can reflect a large variety of things. Hopefully it's implemented the way you say with non Marines and all that.

 

But i disagree on the "it not making sense" part. It depends on how you think of things. One marine is carrying and shooting a vehicle grade weapon by himself, while a human usually needed two people to move and shoot the same weapon. A vehicle with its better systems can move a limited amount and shoot all it's weapons, or move a medium amount and shoot one at optimal capacity. It scales up pretty well imo.

 

I'm not even sure what your argument is.  You're effectively agreeing with me, just you're not thinking of it even farther; they can model how Heavy interacts with these different unit types way more effectively now than the old blanket "Heavy means you have to not move to shoot."

It can mean that, and so much more.  That's better for both fluff feels and gameplay.  It's an overall improvement.

[01RTB01]

2 hours ago, No Foes Remain said:

So they've turned heavy into salvo? Am I reading that right?

 

Overall mixed on it, some bits seem fair others not so, I'll have to see rules for other stuff that's changing in this edition before comitting or not.

Nope. 

 

It depends on the weapon. Heavy bolters get an extra shot, lascannons get extra damage. It's variable.

[01RTB01]

The changes to heavy (assuming the weapons stay similar) means that graviton support squads may finally see the light of day. Then being blast, heavy and short ranged made them all but unusable.

 

There's hope. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

20 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I'm not even sure what your argument is.  You're effectively agreeing with me, just you're not thinking of it even farther; they can model how Heavy interacts with these different unit types way more effectively now than the old blanket "Heavy means you have to not move to shoot."

It can mean that, and so much more.  That's better for both fluff feels and gameplay.  It's an overall improvement.

 

I'm saying the potential for cascading lethality creep seems far less likely in 3rd HH than in 10th 40k due to the granularity of the Heavy rule. I'm hoping it's well implemented across the board as Marines aren't doing much to soothe my fears with moving full distance and hitting on 3s. I like that heavy can mean different things too, but i wish it was overall much more strict.

 

 

[Irate Khornate]

3 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I'm saying the potential for cascading lethality creep seems far less likely in 3rd HH than in 10th 40k due to the granularity of the Heavy rule. I'm hoping it's well implemented across the board as Marines aren't doing much to soothe my fears with moving full distance and hitting on 3s. I like that heavy can mean different things too, but i wish it was overall much more strict.

 

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling a sense of deja vu.

[roryokane]

4 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Nope. 

 

It depends on the weapon. Heavy bolters get an extra shot, lascannons get extra damage. It's variable.

I really like the heavy affecting different stats to reflect that the value of standing still will differ depending on the weapon.

For a heavy bolter, it’s more dakka, as the marine can plant his feet, brace himself, and longer bursts on full auto, instead of shorter bursts as he moves.

for lascannons, it’s having the time to make minor adjustments to aim that mean the shot will core the target’s top half and not just disintegrate a Pauldron and maybe an arm (survivable for a marine) as small changes to aim and target occur on the move. 

I have to say, I heard this forum’s collective sigh of relief echo through the warp when i saw the article mention hull points! :p

[No Foes Remain]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

Nope. 

 

It depends on the weapon. Heavy bolters get an extra shot, lascannons get extra damage. It's variable.

Ah I see it now, my tired brain can't read it seems.

[MARK0SIAN]

I quite like the changes to melee weapons. The initiative modifier is definitely better than the fairly binary system of unwieldy or not. 
 

I’m a bit less sure about the changes to ranged weapons though. Being able to move and shoot heavy weapons currently makes Deathguard very good. It’s unquestionably a powerful ability and I’m hoping they’ve costed it appropriately.

 

Melta is my biggest concern. 6 damage is an insane amount of damage. A model that currently costs 27 points should not be killing a dread in one shot. Or even worse a combo-Melta on a sergeant only costs 10 points and would give him a good chance of killing a dread in melta range.

 

 

[Gorgoff]

4 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I quite like the changes to melee weapons. The initiative modifier is definitely better than the fairly binary system of unwieldy or not. 
 

I’m a bit less sure about the changes to ranged weapons though. Being able to move and shoot heavy weapons currently makes Deathguard very good. It’s unquestionably a powerful ability and I’m hoping they’ve costed it appropriately.

 

Melta is my biggest concern. 6 damage is an insane amount of damage. A model that currently costs 27 points should not be killing a dread in one shot. Or even worse a combo-Melta on a sergeant only costs 10 points and would give him a good chance of killing a dread in melta range.

 

 

They could always do so with vehicles for 20 years or so. 6 inches is very close so not so easy and more importantly we know nothing about the game. Or how dreadnoughts are. 

Drives me nuts to be honest. 

But so far I am like you very fond of the known changes. 

 

[jaxom]

8 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Melta is my biggest concern. 6 damage is an insane amount of damage. A model that currently costs 27 points should not be killing a dread in one shot.

Fingers crossed they add a few more wounds to Dreadnoughts? I feel like 10 is appropriate. Two meltas within 6” or 5 stationary lascannons seems okay to me (because they’re unlikely to fully do the deed, but a lucky turn could do it).

[Marshal Mittens]

These are not huge changes.

 

Meltas were already very good...when they got to shoot. Which they only have a 12" range, so not very often.

 

Multimeltas were also very good, but only had a 24" range and suffered from the same thing they suffer from now, namely not being lascannons.

 

Lascannons out range most weapons in the game at 48". Put them down in a good spot and they can shoot all game.

 

Multimeltas are normally in range of half the enemies army if they can shoot. 

 

I am kinda meh on the disentigrator rifle. It seems....ok. I need to see the stats on plasma, but S4 AP3 is not amazing.

 

Still going to have some on my Dark Angels, but it hardly seems like an overpowered wonder weapon, and may be a lot less useful if massed artificer is still a thing. 

Edited Friday at 07:48 PM by Marshal Mittens

[MARK0SIAN]

18 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Fingers crossed they add a few more wounds to Dreadnoughts? I feel like 10 is appropriate. Two meltas within 6” or 5 stationary lascannons seems okay to me (because they’re unlikely to fully do the deed, but a lucky turn could do it).

I would hope they would but they’ve already said it’ll kill a deredeo in one shot unfortunately so unless they’ve left them on 6 and boosted the other dreads I think it’ll be the same result for a contemptor. 

[Unknown Legionnaire]

If snap shots are indeed gone and heavy weapons can fire freely on the move, this will totally and completely alter the game as we knew it and turn it into a very different one.

 

Not saying it will be good or bad, because people take offense at everything nowadays for whatever reason(s) or brainfarts.

 

But it will be a different game.

[Xenith]

5 hours ago, Irate Khornate said:

Damage (D): This is a new stat for Age of Darkness which should be familiar to players of other Warhammer systems. It shows how many Wounds or Hull Points it strips from its target

 

We have confirmation

 

Great thanks! Skimmed it (while at work) so obviously missed that!

[Brother Sutek]

My concern is that even with an additional shot potential the hvy bolter is still not worth taking. I like them and would love to use them but they haven't been worth taking in the last two editions. Ok the one caveat to that was Dark Angels with Acid rounds but they were busted even though I loved them.

[Gorgoff]

37 minutes ago, Unknown Legionnaire said:

If snap shots are indeed gone and heavy weapons can fire freely on the move, this will totally and completely alter the game as we knew it and turn it into a very different one.

 

Not saying it will be good or bad, because people take offense at everything nowadays for whatever reason(s) or brainfarts.

 

But it will be a different game.

Absolutely agree. 

All armies being able to move and shoot with heavy weapons seem like a bad idea tbh. 

It kind of takes away one of the only things vehicles have going on for them at the moment. I wonder how they want to tackel this. 

[Xenith]

Great point actually. I'd always had as a potential house rule that

1) heavy weapons cannot react fire against lighter weapons

2) pistols cannot trigger reactions (or could be fired in melee) 

 

I'm sure there will be some modification,  I'm not sure whether it will be good.

[Lord Marshal]

1 hour ago, Unknown Legionnaire said:

If snap shots are indeed gone and heavy weapons can fire freely on the move, this will totally and completely alter the game as we knew it and turn it into a very different one.

 

Not saying it will be good or bad, because people take offense at everything nowadays for whatever reason(s) or brainfarts.

 

But it will be a different game.

 

I'm not so sure how much it will change with most Heavy weapons personally.

 

Lascannons are still 48". That puts the vast majority of targets in-range from Turn 2 at worst, which was already the case. Chances are Lascannon HSS are still going to be sat on the same spot they are in Turn 5 as they were Turn 1, as people usually want the opponent to be coming to them so it becomes more difficult to range-in on them. Same goes for Volkite Culverins.

 

Death Guard could already dance about with their HSS and despite being one of the more popular Legions they were far from the Boogeyman of the edition (largely due to people self-regulating from not bringing The Reaping with x7 HSS Lascannons but the same should still apply this edition I'd have hoped). Granted, they couldn't leap out of transports while doing so.

 

Autocannons and Missile Launchers were already 48", so if those suddenly become great then the above will probably still apply to them.

 

Heavy Flamers were already Assault.

 

Plasma Cannons are a bit of an unknown, but would probably benefit due to being in that weird 36" range. 

 

That mainly leaves Multi-Meltas as the potential problem-child, but much like their smaller siblings, it'll probably be a case of overkilling something after leaping out of a Rhino and then instantly being turned into a pink mist next turn... which isn't dissimilar to how it often goes with Meltaguns now - if you see them being brought in the first place.

 

As usual I'm probably wrong about this stuff though.

 

Edited Friday at 09:02 PM by Lord Marshal

[Irate Khornate]

So after giving it a little bit to think over, this reminds me a lot of 8th edition and up going off gut feeling.

 

Damage characteristics coming thus causing units to get more wounds, the implied loss of instant death and vehicle damage chart, eternal warrior looking like a *reduce damage by x to a minimum of one* ability, being able to fire heavy weapons after moving without the relentless ability, and the resulting increase in mobility and thus lethality. 

 

Of course this is a decent bit of conjecture and assuming so I'll absolutely admit I could be wrong and I hope I'm wrong.