New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Marshal Rohr]

I think worrying about points is incredibly premature when all the weapons have been reworked. A Tactical Support Squad with all

meltas was several Hundred points before all this, I can’t imagine they will publish these books and go “wait did anyone put new points in”

[Ripper.McGuirl]

1 hour ago, Unknown Legionnaire said:

 

But it will be a different game.

I think this is the main takeaway at this point: we’re going into a different game and all the parts need to be evaluated as a part of a new and different whole. 
Some people are just not going to want a different game and that’s fine. 
So many things are already different or referenced to be different that it’s clear the whole game is going to be different.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

15 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

I'm not so sure how much it will change with most Heavy weapons personally.

 

Lascannons are still 48". That puts the vast majority of targets in-range from Turn 2 at worst, which was already the case. Chances are Lascannon HSS are still going to be sat on the same spot they are in Turn 5 as they were Turn 1, as people usually want the opponent to be coming to them so it becomes more difficult to range-in on them. Same goes for Volkite Culverins.

 

Death Guard could already dance about with their HSS and despite being one of the more popular Legions they were far from the Boogeyman of the edition (largely due to people self-regulating from not bringing The Reaping with x7 HSS Lascannons but the same should still apply this edition I'd have hoped). Granted, they couldn't leap out of transports while doing so.

 

Autocannons and Missile Launchers were already 48", so if those suddenly become great then the above will probably still apply to them.

 

Heavy Flamers were already Assault.

 

Plasma Cannons are a bit of an unknown, but would probably benefit due to being in that weird 36" range. 

 

That mainly leaves Multi-Meltas as the potential problem-child, but much like their smaller siblings, it'll probably be a case of overkilling something after leaping out of a Rhino and then instantly being turned into a pink mist next turn... which isn't dissimilar to how it often goes with Meltaguns now - if you see them being brought in the first place.

 

As usual I'm probably wrong about this stuff though.

 

 

 

You are correct about range(s), but ... play with terrain much ?

 

My point wasn't about range, but about moving & shooting

 

Your guys stay in place over the course of the game ? Great ! Mine usually don't (and I didn't play Death Guard). 

[Lord Marshal]

16 minutes ago, Unknown Legionnaire said:

You are correct about range(s), but ... play with terrain much ?

 

My point wasn't about range, but about moving & shooting

 

Your guys stay in place over the course of the game ? Great ! Mine usually don't (and I didn't play Death Guard). 

 

Even with plenty of terrain, people usually have a habit of plonking their HSS on the tallest piece they can find so they can look over as much of the map as possible.

 

Unfortunately, most in my experience don't have the terrain to play on super dense, multi-street boards ripped straight from Codex: Cityfight (were it so I would be a lot happier) try as they might.

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Lord Marshal

[Mogger351]

22 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

So after giving it a little bit to think over, this reminds me a lot of 8th edition and up going off gut feeling.

 

Damage characteristics coming thus causing units to get more wounds, the implied loss of instant death and vehicle damage chart, eternal warrior looking like a *reduce damage by x to a minimum of one* ability, being able to fire heavy weapons after moving without the relentless ability, and the resulting increase in mobility and thus lethality. 

 

Of course this is a decent bit of conjecture and assuming so I'll absolutely admit I could be wrong and I hope I'm wrong. 

Shrink the table size and youre a good chunk of the way there.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Oh yes! I'm really happy now with power axes.

Yes,yes,YES!.

Finally 

[MARK0SIAN]

27 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

I think this is the main takeaway at this point: we’re going into a different game and all the parts need to be evaluated as a part of a new and different whole. 
Some people are just not going to want a different game and that’s fine. 
So many things are already different or referenced to be different that it’s clear the whole game is going to be different.

“but the important thing to know is that it’s still the game you’ve all been playing for more than a decade now.”

 

*Proceeds to outline changes that make it clear it’s definitely not the same game*
 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think some concern about points is pretty fair. 2nd had a pretty large shakeup in terms of mechanics and systems and its point costings were... inexplicable lol.

 

But let me be clear, despite being perpetually negative, I really hope that i am wrong, and that I can see the potential already from what they've shown. I just hope it's implemented well.

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

I'm not so sure how much it will change with most Heavy weapons personally.

 

Lascannons are still 48". That puts the vast majority of targets in-range from Turn 2 at worst, which was already the case.

 

On bad (read: empty) tables, yeah.

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

Chances are Lascannon HSS are still going to be sat on the same spot they are in Turn 5 as they were Turn 1, as people usually want the opponent to be coming to them

 

If one doesn't plqy the new core missions yeah. 

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

 

Autocannons and Missile Launchers were already 48",

On bad (read: empty) tables, yeah.

On good table range doesn't help much. You can't see the whole table from anywhere in either deployment zones on a good table. Maximun one good firing lane but if the objective(s) are not in that lane the Heavy Support Squad all of the sudden becomes a nothing burger.

 

New rules could change that drastically because as it seem we now can just walk and still shoot with them.

But way too early for a judgment call.

There are to many unknow rules to really say anything. 

Let's wait and see. 

[Brother Sutek]

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

Unfortunately, most in my experience don't have the terrain to play on super dense, multi-street boards ripped straight from Codex: Cityfight (were it so I would be a lot happier) try as they might.

 

Quick aside when the first Cityfight came out my IG army that had been mocked for the amount of Mortars and flamers it had went from zero to hero! Man I loved that game ruleset. On topic  I've found the same issue when I go to the local store,  people weren't used to so much line of sight blocking terrain.  When I plunked down four buildings and then added more they would look at me like I was crazy. My home games tend to be much more varied with trees and rocks being also a thing. However there is always line of sight blocking terrain.

[Marshal Loss]

Good article with lots to take in and so much we still don't know. I like the changes to melee weapons in principle, particularly the addition of the initiative modifier (will certainly be fewer to zero cheeky sergeants taking down praetors with their fists now), but it remains to be seen who will be the clear winners and where this leaves key units (and legions, depending on where traits land and how they interact). Similarly ranged weaponry looks to be more lethal than ever but it will be interesting to see where templates and things like artillery have ended up. There's definitely potential in the changes they've made so I'm still cautiously optimistic but won't know how to feel until we get the full picture. 

 

In any case, pleased to see that as Sunkillers can take multi-meltas, they'll likely continue to be a terror long into the new edition. Time to buy a sprue before they sell out for the next 6 months. 

 

It mentions at the bottom that we'll get the challenge step next Monday, but I hope that information on army selection will follow very shortly afterwards. If we go by their 'top 5 changes in the new edition' article they've now covered off 3 of the 5 (advanced characteristics, tactical status, reworked weapons), with another (challenges) to come on Monday, just leaving army construction to go. Then maybe they'll start faction previews the following week so we can finally sink our teeth into legion traits. 

[01RTB01]

4 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

These are not huge changes.

 

I am kinda meh on the disentigrator rifle. It seems....ok. I need to see the stats on plasma, but S4 AP3 is not amazing.

 

Still going to have some on my Dark Angels, but it hardly seems like an overpowered wonder weapon, and may be a lot less useful if massed artificer is still a thing. 

 

Hopefully it means there's meaningful choices. Plasma was horrific in first as it was such an easy choice to make. Having pros and cons for each is only a good thing. They're not bonkers but ap3 isn't prevalent at range currently.

[Marshal Rohr]

2 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

“but the important thing to know is that it’s still the game you’ve all been playing for more than a decade now.”

 

*Proceeds to outline changes that make it clear it’s definitely not the same game*
 

 

To be fair each iteration on 3rd has attempted some way to improve the game that has changed a fundamental interaction. I think when we talk about “the same game” it’s clearly changed a lot over the years but the core of the game isn’t the way weapons work or wound allocation or hull points, it’s things like the stat line, interactive skills, armor values, firing arcs, facings, etc. You can draw a through line from 3rd to AoD3 but you can not from 3rd to 10th. 

[Irate Khornate]

36 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

To be fair each iteration on 3rd has attempted some way to improve the game that has changed a fundamental interaction. I think when we talk about “the same game” it’s clearly changed a lot over the years but the core of the game isn’t the way weapons work or wound allocation or hull points, it’s things like the stat line, interactive skills, armor values, firing arcs, facings, etc. You can draw a through line from 3rd to AoD3 but you can not from 3rd to 10th. 

I'll agree that you can definitely draw a line from third to age of darkness third, but I'll also say this. They're transplanting a lot that was put in 8th edition as well and it looks like they are keeping the door open for the exact same problems that 8th edition and 9th edition had with cascading lethality and rules bloat. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

24 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

I'll agree that you can definitely draw a line from third to age of darkness third, but I'll also say this. They're transplanting a lot that was put in 8th edition as well and it looks like they are keeping the door open for the exact same problems that 8th edition and 9th edition had with cascading lethality and rules bloat. 

From my house it looks like they are going to be able to reduce rules by making the weapon and unit profiles accommodate things you used to need several special rules to deal with. I feel like it’s leaning harder on Necromunda than it is on current 40k.

That said, I am curious what the wound chart will be like: old heresy is old 40k/fantasy style, necromunda and new 40k style is easier to deal with for new people, but I like it less.

[TheTrans]

So... every one is heralding the use of the term 'hull points' as a thing of safety.. 

 

But, like... GW is happy just rebranding :cuss:..look at 10th... its just powerlevels by another name... so what's to say hullpoints just aren't a reworded 'wounds'? 

 

Also..  are we sure Armourbane isn't double damage and melta (x) is just armourbane when within x... 

 

Which if that's the case.. means Damage 4 lascannons against vehicles? 

[roryokane]

3 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

So... every one is heralding the use of the term 'hull points' as a thing of safety.. 

 

But, like... GW is happy just rebranding :cuss:..look at 10th... its just powerlevels by another name... so what's to say hullpoints just aren't a reworded 'wounds'? 

 

Also..  are we sure Armourbane isn't double damage and melta (x) is just armourbane when within x... 

 

Which if that's the case.. means Damage 4 lascannons against vehicles? 

Sure. They could. But why would they? 40K has vehicles with wounds. 30k has vehicles with hull points. Using wounds and just calling them hull points feels pointless when they can just do a 40K and straight up call them wounds. Why would they bother changing the concept but not changing the name?

 

is it possible they could do that? Sure. Is there any evidence to suggest that is a likely outcome?  No.

[Irate Khornate]

1 minute ago, roryokane said:

Sure. They could. But why would they? 40K has vehicles with wounds. 30k has vehicles with hull points. Using wounds and just calling them hull points feels pointless when they can just do a 40K and straight up call them wounds. Why would they bother changing the concept but not changing the name?

 

is it possible they could do that? Sure. Is there any evidence to suggest that is a likely outcome?  No.

The main reason I could see for keeping the name hull points but them being wounds in all but name is they think the community would react badly to the change and not buy the new edition products.

 

There is a little bit of evidence as damage treats hull points the same as wounds, but beyond that its up in the air.

[roryokane]

15 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

The main reason I could see for keeping the name hull points but them being wounds in all but name is they think the community would react badly to the change and not buy the new edition products.

 

There is a little bit of evidence as damage treats hull points the same as wounds, but beyond that it’s up in the air.

I think if they were that worried they wouldn’t make the change from AV/HP!

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, TheTrans said:

So... every one is heralding the use of the term 'hull points' as a thing of safety.. 

 

But, like... GW is happy just rebranding :cuss:..look at 10th... its just powerlevels by another name... so what's to say hullpoints just aren't a reworded 'wounds'? 

 

Also..  are we sure Armourbane isn't double damage and melta (x) is just armourbane when within x... 

 

Which if that's the case.. means Damage 4 lascannons against vehicles? 

Sure and we could all have to play while wearing mittens and have to use squig dice.

 

Look, I get that in isolation the changes can feel drastic but it's a couple of puzzle pieces out of a much larger picture we can't see and don't have everything for. We could start making up what the final picture looks like or we could take what comes, try and fit it together but not jump to too many conclusions.

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Irate Khornate said:

they are keeping the door open for the exact same problems that 8th edition and 9th edition had with cascading lethality

I’m not as concerned because I think it was AP becoming a modifier that had the greatest impact on lethality against Marines.

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

From my house it looks like they are going to be able to reduce rules by making the weapon and unit profiles accommodate things you used to need several special rules to deal with. I feel like it’s leaning harder on Necromunda than it is on current 40k.

That said, I am curious what the wound chart will be like: old heresy is old 40k/fantasy style, necromunda and new 40k style is easier to deal with for new people, but I like it less.

They showed the to wound chart in the stream which seems to be the same. That rules out that they use the one from Necromunda or 40k. 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Hull Points ARE wounds lmao

[BitsHammer]

38 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Hull Points ARE wounds lmao

Yeah, though you could still pop a tank regardless of the number of hull points it had. I get why they added them but honestly I kind of liked it better when you couldn't rely on chipping a tank to death via wounds.

[TheTrans]

So, someone hurled this pic up over on the reddit page, tis the necromunda vehicles... and..well... its doing a bit of a concern when you look at it haha..

Yes yes, we don't know rah rah rah.. but.. I can see HP which... is a bit concerning and we don't know until it drops etc and god do I hope we don't see a removal of the vehicle damage chart..... but.. yeah.