Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Ripper.McGuirl]

2 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Primary Detachment + 2 Secondary Detachments (Centurion) + 2 Additional Slots (Centurion - Prime: Logistical Benefit and Troop - Prime: Logistical Benefit).

But I thought for every command option you take you get an Auxiliary, and the Centurion special rule they mentioned also stated they get an extra Auxiliary choice?

[The boater]

12 minutes ago, Misterduch said:

 

Also me if I want a command squad and some pyroclasts 

 

Literally one praetor and one centurion unlocks 4 pyroclast and a command squad, and gives you two auxiliary detachments for transports, supports squads, or a dreadnought… Were you ever taking more than 4 pyroclast squads?

[MARK0SIAN]

26 minutes ago, The boater said:

I don’t get this, a praetor and a centurion gives you almost the original FoC, what list are you bringing that can’t fit into this without adding one maybe two) models

 

Nothing overly complex but I'd generally take a Praetor and a consul. I'd then generally have a couple of dreads, some terminators with a transport and a tank.

 

I may have misunderstood but to take the same now I'd need:

 

Crusade detachment

Heavy Support detachment X 2

Armoured fist detachment

Armoured support detachment

Shock assault detachment

 

I don't see how I get all that without additional HQ models and that's hardly a weird list of stuff I want to take.

 

This new system seems to punish unit variety with a HQ tax.

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:30 PM by MARK0SIAN

[Misterduch]

9 minutes ago, The boater said:

Literally one praetor and one centurion unlocks 4 pyroclast and a command squad, and gives you two auxiliary detachments for transports, supports squads, or a dreadnought… Were you ever taking more than 4 pyroclast squads?

 

Wait, you can prime an apex slot?

 

Ah....Then dreads are the only issue I have 

 

As for 4 pyros...I liked running 2x msu, 1x firedrake msu and some adherents 

Edited Wednesday at 04:33 PM by Misterduch

[Marshal Rohr]

Logistical benefit is one per detachment so the max you can get is two additional slots per faction. One from Prime, One from Apex, none from auxiliary. 

[Gorgoff]

Best rule I've read so far is that Pyromantic psykers explode on 4+ if they get killed in six inches with (starting wounds) number of S8 auto hits to each unit. 

Hilarious to imagine how a psyker goes nuclear.  

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:50 PM by Gorgoff

[jaxom]

 

Each Command unit unlocks 1 Auxiliary Detachment. The special rule for a non-consul Centurion is it unlocks 1 additional Auxiliary Detachment. High Command can unlock 1 Auxiliary Detachment or 1 Apex Detachment. Each unit in a Prime Slot gets a bonus. One possible bonus is Logistical Benefit, which unlocks 1 Slot of (almost) any type; it seems the exception is Lord of War type units.

 

From the article:

 

26 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

But I thought for every command option you take you get an Auxiliary, and the Centurion special rule they mentioned also stated they get an extra Auxiliary choice?

 

Correct, so in your example the Centurion is providing both Auxiliary Detachments because 1 from being a Command Unit and the additional 1 from being a non-consul Centurion. What was incorrect in the example was the Prime - Logistical Benefits bonus. The two Logistical Benefits (one from Centurion and one from the Troop unit) only unlock unit slots, not whole detachments. You could take two Land Raiders, one per slot because squadrons no longer exist.

 

38 minutes ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

I might be reading this incorrectly, but for each prime slot you fill, you get access to another auxiliary detachment. 
 

So if you take a primary detachment, and take a standard centurion and a troops choice, that unlocks x3 Auxiliary slots.

 

If I take a high command slot and then an apex detachment, the prime veteran slot unlocks another auxiliary detachment. 

 

If you use the Logistical Benefits bonus then, as in the above example, you'd unlock a unit slot and not a whole Auxiliary Detachment. The Primary Detachment with standard Centurion and Troop unit in the Troop Prime slot with Logistical Benefits would be 2 Auxiliary Detachments plus 1 unit slot. For your other example, if you take a High Command and Apex Detachment, a Prime slot unit with Logistical Benefits can be used to unlock one unit slot; for example, a Spartan to transport that unit around.

 

This is just parsing how the system works. I still want sit down and type up something about what I think it means for the game in execution; alas, my lunch break is about to end.

4 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Logistical benefit is one per detachment so the max you can get is two additional slots per faction. One from Prime, One from Apex, none from auxiliary. 

Is that from the core rules leak? Or did I read over something from the article?

[The boater]

22 minutes ago, Misterduch said:

 

Wait, you can prime an apex slot?

 

Ah....Then dreads are the only issue I have 

 

As for 4 pyros...I liked running 2x msu, 1x firedrake msu and some adherents 

you can prime an elite or retinue slot unit, using the logistics one. So you’d likely be able to run your list without too much change. Dread heavy lists got punished by the hq tax and I’m all about it. Dreadnoughts were abused this edition. 

 

26 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

 

Nothing overly complex but I'd generally take a Praetor and a consul. I'd then generally have a couple of dreads, some terminators with a transport and a tank.

 

I may have misunderstood but to take the same now I'd need:

 

Crusade detachment

Heavy Support detachment X 2

Armoured fist detachment

Armoured support detachment

Shock assault detachment

 

I don't see how I get all that without additional HQ models and that's hardly a weird list of stuff I want to take.

 

This new system seems to punish unit variety with a HQ tax.

 

yeah you will likely have to change up some things, but I don’t think your lists will look terribly different. If you already ran a command squad with your praetor, then you get two chances for logistics prime trait, slap the two dreadnoughts in those. Your consul unlocks one aux detachment, and you’d have to add one centurion to unlock two more… if you don’t run a command squad then you need two centurions to achieve the same thing. Might be hard to find some points in that, but one or two additional models and maybe 250-300 points isn’t terrible at all

[Brother Kraskor]

Amazed to discover my hobby magpie behaviour of converting far too many foot Centurions has actually paid off! 

[Wibbling]

I'll confess it had me scratching my head a bit. From the images it seems that 6 tanks could be taken from an Armoured Support/Armoured Fist slot (great if that's Vindicators/Predators/Kratos/Sicarans) but only one dreadnought in the Heavy Assault  slot.  Not quite so nice if you want to take an Iron Hands/Warriors/Death Guard dreadnought heavy list. 

 

Equally on the otherside my Alpha Legion are limited to 2 recon squads (per slot) where I'd quite like to field a few more. I wondered if taking a (for example) Vigilator, or Siege Breaker unlocks two 'Recon'/'Tactical Support' options instead of just one?

 

It is more flexible and rationally hinges on a command group as a 'real life' army would but... a lot of head scratching was done on first look.

 

 

[Misterduch]

14 minutes ago, The boater said:

you can prime an elite or retinue slot unit, using the logistics one. So you’d likely be able to run your list without too much change. Dread heavy lists got punished by the hq tax and I’m all about it. Dreadnoughts were abused this edition. 

 

yeah you will likely have to change up some things, but I don’t think your lists will look terribly different. If you already ran a command squad with your praetor, then you get two chances for logistics prime trait, slap the two dreadnoughts in those. Your consul unlocks one aux detachment, and you’d have to add one centurion to unlock two more… if you don’t run a command squad then you need two centurions to achieve the same thing. Might be hard to find some points in that, but one or two additional models and maybe 250-300 points isn’t terrible at all

 

I fear dreads are an overcorrection atm.

 

One shottable doritos by meltaguns at half range, means that a multimelta rhino may legitimacy zoom up and pop off a shot and actually kill a contemptor in one go. This of course assumes T7 2+/5++ is staying as is. This wouldn't be an issue if Talons were still a thing and properly priced, but with how taxing each dread is to take?

 

Not a good combination without further info

 

 

 

 

[MARK0SIAN]

24 minutes ago, The boater said:

you can prime an elite or retinue slot unit, using the logistics one. So you’d likely be able to run your list without too much change. Dread heavy lists got punished by the hq tax and I’m all about it. Dreadnoughts were abused this edition. 

 

yeah you will likely have to change up some things, but I don’t think your lists will look terribly different. If you already ran a command squad with your praetor, then you get two chances for logistics prime trait, slap the two dreadnoughts in those. Your consul unlocks one aux detachment, and you’d have to add one centurion to unlock two more… if you don’t run a command squad then you need two centurions to achieve the same thing. Might be hard to find some points in that, but one or two additional models and maybe 250-300 points isn’t terrible at all

My issue is though what benefit do it get with that? How has this new system made things any better. I’ve now got to jump through hoops and pay a HQ tax to run a fairly standard army and I’m just not seeing what the overall payoff is for switching to this system. 
 

I can’t see any list building abilities that weren’t possible in the previous edition that we get from this. I just don’t get what the extra complexity actually achieves. 

[dicebod]

12 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

My issue is though what benefit do it get with that? How has this new system made things any better. I’ve now got to jump through hoops and pay a HQ tax to run a fairly standard army and I’m just not seeing what the overall payoff is for switching to this system. 
 

I can’t see any list building abilities that weren’t possible in the previous edition that we get from this. I just don’t get what the extra complexity actually achieves. 

Completely agree with this and other sentiments elsewhere in this thread that this new army composition approach seems to punish list variety. I want a Sicaran and a Land Raider in my list - but now, that's two separate detachments. If I went the boring route and only had two Land Raiders, I could fit all that in a single Detachment.

My standard 3k list has a selection of dreads, troops, terminators, tanks and elite troops, all led by two characters. If I wanted to port that list over to 3.0, I would need to scrounge up 4 more detachments by adding two vanilla centurions.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

15 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

My issue is though what benefit do it get with that? How has this new system made things any better. I’ve now got to jump through hoops and pay a HQ tax to run a fairly standard army and I’m just not seeing what the overall payoff is for switching to this system. 
 

I can’t see any list building abilities that weren’t possible in the previous edition that we get from this. I just don’t get what the extra complexity actually achieves. 

Why do things need to be better? It´s just a new edition according to the 3-year release cycle.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

14 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

My issue is though what benefit do it get with that? How has this new system made things any better. I’ve now got to jump through hoops and pay a HQ tax to run a fairly standard army and I’m just not seeing what the overall payoff is for switching to this system. 
 

I can’t see any list building abilities that weren’t possible in the previous edition that we get from this. I just don’t get what the extra complexity actually achieves. 

So far it seems like the idea was to wrap more of the basic rites into standard ways of building your army, without needing15 different rites to specifically spell out each option. I am sure as we get more libers/legion rules/legacy docs/campaign books, the system will be further illuminated. Whether this is all good or not as good remains to be seen.

[Son of Rawl]

Wondering now what the Legion Detachments will look like. Hoping for the best as I want to build a full plastic Stone Gauntlet...if it's still available that is.

[The boater]

13 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

My issue is though what benefit do it get with that? How has this new system made things any better. I’ve now got to jump through hoops and pay a HQ tax to run a fairly standard army and I’m just not seeing what the overall payoff is for switching to this system. 
 

I can’t see any list building abilities that weren’t possible in the previous edition that we get from this. I just don’t get what the extra complexity actually achieves. 

Well for one, you don’t have to take a praetor to be able to build a lot of the core RoWs. I don’t think Space marines were really affected too bad by this to be honest, but it really fixes a lot of the weirdness that was the solar auxiliary list, and makes list building a core mechanic instead of having different rules for different armies which is a good thing in my book. I’m stoked by it because it is more like a modern army (or actually really like a modern adaptation of the Roman legion structure) so it’s a cool nod.

 

I’d hardly call taking one or two more models is jumping through hoops… Most non abusive lists in 2.0 will easily translate to 3.0 and it opens up a ton of options for folks that are willing to get a little creative. All around win in my book

[Nephaston]

Just from cursory glances and vibes this feels very much like "We really REALLY like roman legion structures, and you BETTER take a centurion per century of soldiery".

I can vibe with it, the complexity has a charm.

[Bradeh]

Little odd lorewise that you can have non-retinue veterans in power armour but not non-retinue veterans in terminator armour. It was the same in 2nd, so not a big deal. 

 

[Irate Khornate]

So far, with all the additional things that have been added on in total, it feels like we have walked past complex into convoluted.  Just by what has been shown the game is going to take longer than previously even with the passage of time and getting used to it. Everything feels saturated by additional rules and additional choices in what was already a more complex game to begin with.

 

I understand that the vast majority of lists from 2nd edition can fit into third editions organization. However the part that I very much dislike is I now have to jump through so many hoops to translate my lists over.

 

So far the only extra complexity that I have enjoyed is melee weapons. Those needed a little bit of a touch up to be a bit more balanced and I will admit it looks like they have done that.

 

And yet it's still seems like they messed it up. Why is the saturnine power fist three damage versus a regular power fist doing two for any other reason than we want these new models to sell.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Most Marines have 1W, and D2 is basically ID, which most weapons that would ID a marine before will do D2+ now, so functionally the same in most situations, in my opinion

 

So writing my piece pre-coffee and looking at it later i can see i was really unclear in what i was trying to say, to the point where i come off as talking about something else entirely lol.

 

When i said "no chance of instant kills" i meant to talk about a single dedicated anti tank gun (like a lascannon) rolling a penetrating hit and wrecking or exploding it. Instead, you'll see more volume of fire from dedicated anti tank guns stripping hull points off, in a way that is more equivalent to how tanks were killed in 8th. It wasn't meant as a commentary on how you won't be able to blast an infantrys wound pool any more with the removal of the instant death mechanic.

 

 

 

 

[Bradeh]

3 hours ago, firestorm40k said:

So, based on this article, I can't use the (just over) 2,000 points of Imperial Fists I've got painted, as it's not legal 

 

I've only got one HQ built and painted, a Castellan, so that denies me access to additional Auxiliary slots,unless I use that 'prime' bonus thing to give me an additional one. 

 

So I have to choose between my Contemptor, 2 Cataphractii, Tactical Support Squad, or either of the Heavy Support squads I've got. 

 

That doesn't sound like list building is more flexible than it ever was, GW! 

 

Unless someone can explain this to me better than GW's writers, but it looks like I've got to add stuff I didn't necessarily want to, in order to get the Auxiliary slots just so I can use what I've already got 

 

You can just proxy a Sergeant or two as a Centurion or Command or similar until you can add to your army. Being dramatic for the sake of it. 

[Astartes Consul]

So one other take away is that, in perhaps predictable style, the preview article not actually including all of the various Detachments in full makes for a very confused picture of what this will look like.

 

Including an example of a 2.0 List transposed into the new system was helpful. But it was quite a basic list so hardly showed off how a lot of the interactions between Detachments will work. 

[Marshal Mittens]

I wish they were dropping a kit that was like "Build your own Consel", maybe like a 3 pack with 1 of each armor MK and a lot of arms and weapons and heads. It feels like they are pushing leaders a lot more.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Well, they won't be doing that.

 

This is character-bloat-edition, and they want you to buy all the indivual models one by one to cash in more.