Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[BitsHammer]

Been thinking about the new formation based FOC design and I don't hate it. Character taxes are a lower bar to entry than troops on the wallet and on time investment to add stuff to an army (painting and modelling) plus it encourages us to show off some creativity as well. My big concern is if they cut any of the consul options who don't have dedicated models because that would be a real disappointment to see a system that encourages you to lean into them more only to lose some variety.

 

Now I get that some people don't want as many officers in their army, but the Legions of old had a lot of them, and the narrative largely follows them so I think I get the intent on trying to marry the historical side of the game to the narrative that comes from the books a bit more.

[SvenIronhand]

You should be able to kill a Predator with 10 Lascannons pointed at it, so I don't see the problem there. 

[Marshal Rohr]

10 minutes ago, apologist said:

 

The previewed vehicle rules look good to me – togther with the shooting changes we've seen, I'm understanding this as a refinement and polishing of the underlying 3rd edition 40k mechanics, seemingly with the swinginess reduced, and subtleties built in to allow for greater differentiation between different weapons and their effectiveness against different targets.

 

If the fallout of this new edition is that there's genuine decisions to be made in picking weapons, rather than defaulting to the one that's been maths-hammered on the internet to be best overall (looking at you, las-plas squads), then I'll count that as a win.

 

The Titan rules look much more thematic, interesting and involving than previously, so I hope the promise that they won't just be 'big, boring tanks' to play with and against pays off.

 

The Knights rules are amusing – I reckon the lack of side arc is less to do with manoeuvreability, and more to do with the fact it's a PITA to work out whether you're shooting them from the side :D

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder whether this was led by rules mechanics or by background? While I love a Dreadnought as much as the next Astartes, I like the fact that the Detachments allow you to attach what amounts to an Armour squadron to your basic Company; but Dreadnoughts are rare and precious.

 

Isn’t there a passage in Rogue Trader or Codex Imperium about whole armies of Dreadnaughts during the early Imperium? 

[Marshal Rohr]

3 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

You should be able to kill a Predator with 10 Lascannons pointed at it, so I don't see the problem there. 

Yeh, Lascannons should be the deadliest and most expensive man portable anti-tank option. Hopefully the points have been adjusted to make it a real choice between guaranteed tank removal or relying on other options instead of the auto include they can be now. 

[Rusted Boltgun]

22 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Isn’t there a passage in Rogue Trader or Codex Imperium about whole armies of Dreadnaughts during the early Imperium? 

I don't have the RT book to hand but the Compendium noted 'Dreadnought Bands '. Of course, this was back when they could be fitted with ejector seats 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 02:47 PM by Rusted Boltgun
Photo crop

[apologist]

24 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Isn’t there a passage in Rogue Trader or Codex Imperium about whole armies of Dreadnaughts during the early Imperium? 

There certainly was, yes – Dreadnoughts used to be fairly commonplace, with everyone including the Imperial Army using them in dedicated formations. With that said, the background of Dreadnoughts has moved on considerably to make them more consistently the walking coffins we know and love today. 

 

There's definitely still scope in the background for whole armies of Dreadnoughts – the World Eaters counter-boarding in Betrayer are a good example – but overall I think GW are leaning towards them being rarer than the absolutely commonplace Predator, for example. Where they turn up in the HH series, they tend to be individuals – Telemechrus, Rylanor, Lhorke – rather than presented as conventional massed forces like Armour squadrons.

 

... all of which is really just idle musing on whether the change from Talons and Squadrons in HH2 to individual Dreadnoughts and Detachments of Predators (etc.) was led by rules or lore. I ducked out of playing Age of Darkness when 2nd edition came in, so I hold my dendro-manipulators up as no expert – but the impression I've got from seeing discussion is that Dreadnoughts were generally seen as very common and (in great quantities) detrimental to play experience.

 

Edited Friday at 02:50 PM by apologist

[Marshal Rohr]

12 minutes ago, apologist said:

There certainly was, yes – Dreadnoughts used to be fairly commonplace, with everyone including the Imperial Army using them in dedicated formations. With that said, the background of Dreadnoughts has moved on considerably to make them more consistently the walking coffins we know and love today. 

 

There's definitely still scope in the background for whole armies of Dreadnoughts – the World Eaters counter-boarding in Betrayer are a good example – but overall I think GW are leaning towards them being rarer than the absolutely commonplace Predator, for example. Where they turn up in the HH series, they tend to be individuals – Telemechrus, Rylanor, Lhorke – rather than presented as conventional massed forces like Armour squadrons.

 

... all of which is really just idle musing on whether the change from Talons and Squadrons in HH2 to individual Dreadnoughts and Detachments of Predators (etc.) was led by rules or lore. I ducked out of playing Age of Darkness when 2nd edition came in, so I hold my dendro-manipulators up as no expert – but the impression I've got from seeing discussion is that Dreadnoughts were generally seen as very common and (in great quantities) detrimental to play experience.

 

In Legiones they are taken by the handful so it feels like the answer is more they are hard to make and rare like a modern fighter jet is hard to make and rare. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Regarding weight of fire of lascannons to kill a pred, it's basically the same amount of glances as in 1st and 2nd. But, you only needed an average 6 shots to get those glances in 2nd vs the 9 or so in 1st/3rd. So parity with 1st and a toning down from 2nd seems pretty good.

 

I preferred the 5th version without hull points, but it never really bothered me that a full squad of dedicated anti tank weapons would shwack almost anything you pointed them at. The biggest issue was the sheer volume you could take them in in 2nd and how interactive return fire was. And I'm pretty sure both those things are getting changed. 

Edited Friday at 03:19 PM by SkimaskMohawk

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, Cryptix said:

Laacannons still have to hit and roll for armor pen, which means it takes 8 stationary lascannons to take down 1 Predator on average, 6 if you can get the side armor, and with the removal of squadrons that 1 Predator is all you're gonna get. It takes around 15 melta guns to do the same outside melta range, 4 of them if you get within melta range. All of this is assuming no cover.

What is this absolutely wildly rational assessment?! HOW VERY DARE YOU?!

[01RTB01]

2 hours ago, TheTrans said:

Spot on, so every 4+ a stationary lascannon gets on armour pen is 2 HP.

Forgot all Lascannon glances are pens now mate, so 3 stationary glances is 6 hullpoints.

Aye, I wasn't aware. Need the whole rulebook in my hands lol. 

 

 

[Dudley Nightshade]

1 hour ago, Rusted Boltgun said:

I don't have the RT book to hand but the Compendium noted 'Dreadnought Bands '. Of course, this was back when they could be fitted with ejector seats 

 

 

 

 

"Chuck, Eddy and Fury" 

 

Can you imagine Lieutenant Titus whimsically referring to a dreadnought as Chuck?

[de Selby]

Famously whimsical, that lieutenant Titus.

 

GW make 3 different plastic dreadnought chassis, soon to be 4. Either they want me to play with dreadnoughts or not, they need to make up their minds.

 

I'm starting to wonder if the reason the detachments seem so awkward is that every legion/faction will have a default dedicated detachment with the selection of unit types they most commonly use, and what we've seen so far is not an accurate view of 'normal' army selection?

 

On another topic: do the new detailed rules for titans increase the likelihood there's a plastic titan in the works?

Edited Friday at 04:09 PM by de Selby

[Nephaston]

40 minutes ago, de Selby said:

I'm starting to wonder if the reason the detachments seem so awkward is that every legion/faction will have a default dedicated detachment with the selection of unit types they most commonly use, and what we've seen so far is not an accurate view of 'normal' army selection?

Yeah, this very much feels like a default one fits all kind of chart. I wouldn't be surprised to see a "march of the ancients" detachment for marine legions for spamming dreads, or mechanicum shenanigans that let you stuff multiple moiraxes into one heavy support slot (if they even go in that slot).

 

I would also bet money on different consuls having greater benefit for different legions in regards to slot allotment, like a librarian for TS, Chaplains for WB, or a Pathfinder for RG.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Dudley Nightshade said:

Can you imagine Lieutenant Titus whimsically referring to a dreadnought as Chuck?

If the yeet fits…

https://tenor.com/i5PG34mJAQp.gif

[OttoVonAwesome]

5 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Not just predators, that’s your basilisks, sicarans, Kratos, Russ, vindicators, etc. So either vehicles aren’t as tough as they are saying (likely with the glancing being so debilitating) or the buffed Dreadnaughts too. 

Could just be fluffy. Dreadnoughts aren't supposed to be exactly common even in the 31st millenium but it's very likely Dreads are still tougher by virtue of having armour and invulnerable saves. 

[jaxom]

Wheren’t Leviathans supposed to be rarer than Knights?

[de Selby]

14 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

 I wouldn't be surprised to see a "march of the ancients" detachment for marine legions for spamming dreads, or mechanicum shenanigans that let you stuff multiple moiraxes into one heavy support slot (if they even go in that slot).

I'm not even really thinking of dread spam, I'm more thinking that in the past GW has  always encouraged you to buy one of everything, and skew lists required you to push the limits. Whereas currently I feel like I'm min-maxing just to make a familiar, WD battle report-style combined arms list.

 

Like maybe ultramarines could have a detachment of two troops, one support squad, one tank, one fast attack, one elite, all led by a consul, and that would be a default mix you could add characters and auxiliary detachments to. From what we've seen so far that army requires 3 auxiliary detachments and a logistical benefit to build and I just don't understand why it's so hard.

 

Death guard could have more heavy infantry in the mix, white scars more fast attack, emperor's children more elites... I dunno, the rest of the complexity they have added makes sense to me, I feel like I am missing something.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

9 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Wheren’t Leviathans supposed to be rarer than Knights?

If every legion has a thousand Dreadnaughts of different types that would be eighteen thousand Dreadnaughts, which is in line with the size of Dreadnaughts units we see in Legiones Imperialis Formations of Legend. There are 232 Knight Houses on Lexicanum, loyalist and traitor. If each house has just a hundred, which is a little less than most houses have in AT, that’s still more knights than dreads. Give and take post heresy houses, house like Vornherr with 600 knights, and houses like Coldshroud that get new knights whenever needed. 

[lokkorex]

Anybody got an idea how techmarines and apothecaries will work?

Are they characters? Tactical support? Part of the Apex Detachment?

[jaxom]

11 minutes ago, lokkorex said:

Anybody got an idea how techmarines and apothecaries will work?

Are they characters? Tactical support? Part of the Apex Detachment?

Apothecary was an example of Tactical Support. I’m going to guess Techmarines are too.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

14 minutes ago, lokkorex said:

Anybody got an idea how techmarines and apothecaries will work?

Are they characters? Tactical support? Part of the Apex Detachment?

I haven't seen mention of Techmarines yet, but I think Apothecaries were mentioned as slotting into another Detachment (though I forget which).

[Wibbling]

2 hours ago, de Selby said:

On another topic: do the new detailed rules for titans increase the likelihood there's a plastic titan in the works?

 

Be still my beating heart. I do hope so. Imagine a game where you've both got a couple of Warhounds. 

[SalamandersBro]

So far I like these new rules for tanks. Getting your tanks 1 shotted before you can use them sucks. I stopped bringing my Kratos because I never had a chance to effectively use it. And the points could used better.

 

The new organization charts seems like its to sell more models. I get it. 

 

Now what do the Dragonbreath Flamers do? 

[Matcap86]

1 hour ago, Wibbling said:

 

Be still my beating heart. I do hope so. Imagine a game where you've both got a couple of Warhounds. 

 

Can I interest you in Titancus and/or Legions Imperialis? 

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, SalamandersBro said:

Now what do the Dragonbreath Flamers do? 

You're going to have to wait for the libers.or GW to preview them later.