Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Misterduch]

With doubling up on weapons soft confrimed, I guess it's time to figure out how to get my hands on a 2nd disintegrator

[Fire Golem]

1 hour ago, BitsHammer said:

That's tomorrow me's problem.

yeah I thought it was coming today cos they just said ‘stick around for the rules’ rather than like ‘come back tomorrow’ but then the lore one dropped. 
 

Both the TS and IW plates look fantastic. 

[MARK0SIAN]

7 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

I mean you described the same thing using 2 names and tried to make them sound like different things.

 

You're amending your minis because they're not efficient enough = competitive mindset. There's no sliding scale there.

They aren’t the same thing at all. There’s a difference between something not being the best at what it does/the most points efficient and something literally not being able to do its job.

 

If you have a unit of plasma guys because you needed a unit to deal with heavily armoured infantry and their rules change so they can no longer reliably deal with heavily armoured infantry then your unit can’t do its job. It’s non-functional. Wanting to change them into a unit that can reliably do that job is not a competitive mindset, the other alternative is to go into every game with a handicap. 
 

Your definition of competitiveness is way too broad and seems to boil down to someone who wants to play the game without a handicap. There is absolutely a sliding scale of competitiveness. The game itself has a winner so if you play it you’re competing. To say there’s no sliding scale between wanting your minis to do their job/be worth taking and only wanting the best, most optimised unit in a slot is just wrong. 

This hobby is expensive, I will never look down on someone who’d rather alter their existing models so they’re able to use them rather than be forced to either buy new ones or use a unit that can’t actually do its job. 

[Dhar'Neth]

I rarely contribute to such difficult dissertations but I find it difficult to stay put this time. I totally understand that sometimes it’s difficult to accept that rules change and our mindset and understanding of reality changes drastically. However we shall wait for the context of the rules changes and more information. Dropping out of hobby based on rumors and speculation is out of this world. Maybe we will see plasma in a different light in coming days. Maybe plasma trait has some meaning we don’t understand yet. Maybe, maybe and maybe. I can feel that many of us are confused and anxious about the future of our beloved hobby but all we have right now are scraps of information and each other. Please don’t overreact and keep calm. Maybe, just maybe our hopes can flourish and if they don’t, is it really that important ? It’s just a game with toy soldiers. Let’s hope for the best! 

Edited 8 hours ago by Dhar'Neth

[Mogger351]

26 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

They aren’t the same thing at all. There’s a difference between something not being the best at what it does/the most points efficient and something literally not being able to do its job.

 

If you have a unit of plasma guys because you needed a unit to deal with heavily armoured infantry and their rules change so they can no longer reliably deal with heavily armoured infantry then your unit can’t do its job. It’s non-functional. Wanting to change them into a unit that can reliably do that job is not a competitive mindset, the other alternative is to go into every game with a handicap. 
 

Your definition of competitiveness is way too broad and seems to boil down to someone who wants to play the game without a handicap. There is absolutely a sliding scale of competitiveness. The game itself has a winner so if you play it you’re competing. To say there’s no sliding scale between wanting your minis to do their job/be worth taking and only wanting the best, most optimised unit in a slot is just wrong. 

This hobby is expensive, I will never look down on someone who’d rather alter their existing models so they’re able to use them rather than be forced to either buy new ones or use a unit that can’t actually do its job. 

No.

 

Plasma is still a gun, it still can and does deal with heavy armour. Doing it 16% of the time instead of 50% of the time is simply less effective, not non-functional.

 

You even used the word "reliable". You're advocating ripping models apart to get the "better" option, because you're primarily concerned with winning. Which is commonly called.... being competitive.

 

You can be denial all you like, no skin off my back.

Edited 8 hours ago by Mogger351

[LameBeard]

2 hours ago, Casual Heresy said:

Oh the Thousand Sons artwork is enough tempt one into treachery...

 

Treachery?  Surely Magnus did nothing wrong?

[Dudley Nightshade]

28 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Plasma is still a gun, it still can and does deal with heavy armour. Doing it 16% of the time instead of 50% of the time is simply less effective, not non-functional.

I have no horse in this race, but I am having trouble understanding this logic. What seems to be at stake is basically army composition.

 

Using a hypothetical situation, say you regularly play against someone who takes a lot of terminators. The games are fun, and your win ratio is around 50/50. Suddenly, a big part of your army drops from a 50% likelihood of killing your opponent's models to a 16% likelihood. Now you're going to lose most of the time, and the games are not going to be fun anymore.

 

In that type of scenario, I would absolutely support someone reconfiguring their models to get back to par rather than buying and building a replacement squad, which for some people might take months or years.

 

Editing to add: if I were said regular opponent with all the terminators, I would also support my opponent proxying the plasma guns as something more effective as long as they were visually distinct from any real plasma. However, I understand in some circumstances that might not work.

Edited 7 hours ago by Dudley Nightshade

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

3 hours ago, Fire Golem said:

Im struggling to decide which legion to do my Saturnine stuff in to!

Go against the grain and surprise everybody by doing World Eaters. Especially the Inversion Beamer will guarantee short-ranged kills ensuring that you will have enough blood spatters on your armour.

[MARK0SIAN]

46 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

No.

 

Plasma is still a gun, it still can and does deal with heavy armour. Doing it 16% of the time instead of 50% of the time is simply less effective, not non-functional.

 

You even used the word "reliable". You're advocating ripping models apart to get the "better" option, because you're primarily concerned with winning. Which is commonly called.... being competitive.

 

You can be denial all you like, no skin off my back.

Wanting a unit to be reliable is not the same as wanting the best option.

 

A drop from something happening 50% of the time to 16% of the time is a huge change. If anything only works 16% of the time then it isn’t functional.

 

In this example I’d be taking models apart apart to get a better one than one that can’t do its job. This isn’t because I’m primarily concerned with winning, it’s because I want a fair chance.

[Robbienw]

The new weapons for the dreadnought are very cool and most welcome, however I’m disappointed there is no powerfist.

[Mogger351]

4 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Wanting a unit to be reliable is not the same as wanting the best option.

 

A drop from something happening 50% of the time to 16% of the time is a huge change. If anything only works 16% of the time then it isn’t functional.

 

In this example I’d be taking models apart apart to get a better one than one that can’t do its job. This isn’t because I’m primarily concerned with winning, it’s because I want a fair chance.

OK, so are you going to replace this mini with the middle of the road option or the one that deletes 2+ the most efficiently?

 

This whole thing is because of a game that's 80%+ marines being forced to use a binary AP system. Either it kills them, or why bother. It will always be a problem and breaching is a plaster overthe top of a broken core.

 

The point stands, you don't  "not have a chance" because of a reduction of opportunity in breaching rolls.

[Captain Idaho]

Seeing how underwhelming plasma is, or how lethal Disintegrators are to the firer, plus knowing there's new weapons coming out for the Saturnine Dreadnought...

 

...I'm holding fire on the new releases. I'll save my money.

[The boater]

29 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

The new weapons for the dreadnought are very cool and most welcome, however I’m disappointed there is no powerfist.

I am also disappointed in the lack of Fisty option, but I’ll probably still get one for the weapon options it does get

[MARK0SIAN]

13 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

OK, so are you going to replace this mini with the middle of the road option or the one that deletes 2+ the most efficiently?

 

This whole thing is because of a game that's 80%+ marines being forced to use a binary AP system. Either it kills them, or why bother. It will always be a problem and breaching is a plaster overthe top of a broken core.

 

The point stands, you don't  "not have a chance" because of a reduction of opportunity in breaching rolls.

That’s the problem though isn’t it because you’re right about the binary AP nature (however on a side note I feel the 40k system made armour feel like paper) because if the squads job is to deal with heavily armoured infantry I don’t really have any middle of the road options to turn to. Stuff will either go through or it won’t. Plasma with breaching 4+ kind of was the middle of the road option ironically. Without it, I think there’s a gap in the arsenal for that mid range anti-heavy infantry role and I can’t think how I’d fill it. I’m guessing the designers are expecting people to go for disintegrators.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Plasma was only a "problem" in 1st in that it was the best choice to kill a good variety of units. However, it was far from the only option available, it was expensive on fragile units and required a delivery system, and it fell off against the heaviest targets. Cover also blunted the binary AP system (as it had since 3rd), so models who didn't get their 3+ armour were usually getting a 5+ still. Like a five man support squad cost 175 minimum and averaged 2.7 cataphractii/3.6 tartaros or 5++ equivalent/ 5.5 normal Marines in the open. 

 

If the game is moving towards even more multi wound and damage though, I'm not sure what exactly the problem with old plasma would have been. Ap 2 would let it cut through armour, but limiting it to 1 damage means it only excels into single wound things; a full volley of 20 shots would kill 2 cataphractii or 1 saturnine. Maybe even have STR 6 base and 7 on overcharge to make it a last ditch effort into tanks, but generally very inefficient.

 

They're also not shy about making stuff have extra effects. Flamers causing units fall back, snipers to pin, whatever suppresses, etc...The weapons that traditionally sucked into power armour can have their extra utility and also be cheap when appropriate; plasma being good into single wound stuff shouldn't invalidate other weapons any more.

[Gorgoff]

I asked our future lords and tyrants aka A.I. to show me the big dread in Alpha Legion and Death Guard colours:

As usual they look even better if not painted by the eavy metal team. 

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

OK, so are you going to replace this mini with the middle of the road option or the one that deletes 2+ the most efficiently?

 

This whole thing is because of a game that's 80%+ marines being forced to use a binary AP system. Either it kills them, or why bother. It will always be a problem and breaching is a plaster overthe top of a broken core.

 

The point stands, you don't  "not have a chance" because of a reduction of opportunity in breaching rolls.

Flamers, to take advantage of the new panic mechanic (sick name for a therapist too)

[Wibbling]

2 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

A drop from something happening 50% of the time to 16% of the time is a huge change. If anything only works 16% of the time then it isn’t functional.

 

In this example I’d be taking models apart apart to get a better one than one that can’t do its job. This isn’t because I’m primarily concerned with winning, it’s because I want a fair chance.

 

On about page 114 of Visions of Heresy there's a picture of a unit of Emperor's children with plasma guns. Later on an Emperor's children squad with lascannons - that's how I've built those squads for my Emperor's Children. 

 

Later on there are Iron warriors with missile launchers and plasma cannons, so those went into my Iron warriors. 

 

My Death Guard follow Mortarion's trinity of 'bolter, melta and flamer', so they've got heavy squads of heavy bolters, multi meltas and heavy flamers.

 

I didn't equip them for the stat line. I want to suit the themes I saw in the narrative. While there's dice involved it's vastly more luck than skill. I can't imagine there's one of us who hasn't set up the ideal trap, seen that over confident squad step right into the rotor cannon / assault by a bedraggled squad only to roll so many 1's it's comical. In my view, given the roots of the Heresy 'ethos' it's more aimed at playing what sets the imagination thumping, not what has the better chance of winning.

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

I asked our future lords and tyrants aka A.I. to show me the big dread in Alpha Legion and Death Guard colours:

As usual they look even better if not painted by the eavy metal team. 

That Death Guard one is really nice. I for one welcome our new robot overlords!

[MARK0SIAN]

29 minutes ago, Wibbling said:

 

On about page 114 of Visions of Heresy there's a picture of a unit of Emperor's children with plasma guns. Later on an Emperor's children squad with lascannons - that's how I've built those squads for my Emperor's Children. 

 

Later on there are Iron warriors with missile launchers and plasma cannons, so those went into my Iron warriors. 

 

My Death Guard follow Mortarion's trinity of 'bolter, melta and flamer', so they've got heavy squads of heavy bolters, multi meltas and heavy flamers.

 

I didn't equip them for the stat line. I want to suit the themes I saw in the narrative. While there's dice involved it's vastly more luck than skill. I can't imagine there's one of us who hasn't set up the ideal trap, seen that over confident squad step right into the rotor cannon / assault by a bedraggled squad only to roll so many 1's it's comical. In my view, given the roots of the Heresy 'ethos' it's more aimed at playing what sets the imagination thumping, not what has the better chance of winning.

You’re missing my point which is that if they change the rules of your weapon picks so it can no longer do the job you picked it for in a reliable way then it’s not power gaming or a waac mentality to want to change the weapon. 
 

So with your lascannon squad, lascannons have always generally had a decent shot at damaging a tank but a squad of them isn’t cheap. Let’s say tomorrow they changed the rules for lascannons so that they went to having only a 16% chance of damaging a tank, would you still run them? Now you might, but I also don’t think anyone would blame you if you changed your list.
 

I’m not talking about sticking with a weapon through a basic change of stats, like the change to plasma in 2.0. I’m talking about if they significantly alter a weapon so that it can’t do the job you chose it for. I maintain that it’s not unreasonable or a competitive mindset to want to change them to something that can do the job. Not necessarily the thing that’s best at the job, but also not one where it’s barely worth rolling the dice because the odds are so low. 

[kabaakaba]

Not like I gonna play HH but it baffling how discussion going on cause sentences like it's to lethal like 40k and tanks die to fast followed by oh no they nerfed plasma followed by new plasma is good and so on. 

[Jings]

48 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

You’re missing my point which is that if they change the rules of your weapon picks so it can no longer do the job you picked it for in a reliable way then it’s not power gaming or a waac mentality to want to change the weapon. 
 

So with your lascannon squad, lascannons have always generally had a decent shot at damaging a tank but a squad of them isn’t cheap. Let’s say tomorrow they changed the rules for lascannons so that they went to having only a 16% chance of damaging a tank, would you still run them? Now you might, but I also don’t think anyone would blame you if you changed your list.
 

I’m not talking about sticking with a weapon through a basic change of stats, like the change to plasma in 2.0. I’m talking about if they significantly alter a weapon so that it can’t do the job you chose it for. I maintain that it’s not unreasonable or a competitive mindset to want to change them to something that can do the job. Not necessarily the thing that’s best at the job, but also not one where it’s barely worth rolling the dice because the odds are so low. 

 

 

I think you're zeroing in too much. Lets have a quick look at what we know about four Special Weapon options so far. 

 

Melta: Short range, high damage, low AP. Not much different than they've always been, but a bit less effective at one-shotting larger vehicles now due to the changes to Armourbane. Retains its niche as an anti-armour weapon. 

 

Flamer: Likely same as ever, but now performs moral shenanigans. Still good against light infantry, but now has utility against armour thanks to causing Routing. 

 

Disintegrator Rifle: High AP, low strength and RF, mid-range and blows you up. If it wounds a Vet, it kills the Vet. Anti-Elite Special Weapon. 

 

Plasma: Breaching has been nerfed. Based on the Blaster, looks like they're getting two fire modes - a safe one, and one that Gets Hot and increased (but lower than present) Breaching. We can extrapolate based on the Bolter profile that the Plasma Gun will likely be 24" RF2, it looks like it's being situated as the mid-range anti-heavy infantry option. 

 

Really, everything bar the Flamer has taken a hit. I don't get why people are getting so hung up on Plasma, which frankly, had its own very serious issues in 2.0 when used in volume due to pricing. It seems to me that the design direction for Special Weapons this edition is to differentiate the myriad weapons and, honestly, it looks like they're doing an okay job while reducing their overall lethality across the board. 

[Marshal Rohr]

10 minutes ago, Jings said:

 

 

I think you're zeroing in too much. Lets have a quick look at what we know about four Special Weapon options so far. 

 

Melta: Short range, high damage, low AP. Not much different than they've always been, but a bit less effective at one-shotting larger vehicles now due to the changes to Armourbane. Retains its niche as an anti-armour weapon. 

 

Flamer: Likely same as ever, but now performs moral shenanigans. Still good against light infantry, but now has utility against armour thanks to causing Routing. 

 

Disintegrator Rifle: High AP, low strength and RF, mid-range and blows you up. If it wounds a Vet, it kills the Vet. Anti-Elite Special Weapon. 

 

Plasma: Breaching has been nerfed. Based on the Blaster, looks like they're getting two fire modes - a safe one, and one that Gets Hot and increased (but lower than present) Breaching. We can extrapolate based on the Bolter profile that the Plasma Gun will likely be 24" RF2, it looks like it's being situated as the mid-range anti-heavy infantry option. 

 

Really, everything bar the Flamer has taken a hit. I don't get why people are getting so hung up on Plasma, which frankly, had its own very serious issues in 2.0 when used in volume due to pricing. It seems to me that the design direction for Special Weapons this edition is to differentiate the myriad weapons and, honestly, it looks like they're doing an okay job while reducing their overall lethality across the board. 

Moral Shenanigans? What is this a Burlesque? 

[Marshal Loss]

I had hoped to see a fist (or perhaps given the Saturnine focus on unique tech, some kind of super lascutter or other weird and wacky melee weapon) with the next batch of Saturnine Dreadnought weapons, but I absolutely love both the graviton pulveriser and inversion beamer. This kit has really grown on me since the potatocam pictures. 

[Captain Idaho]

We're not seeing the while picture of course, but I see little point in taking anything other than Melta guns really, unless you face the 3 guys in the whole world who have non-power armour armies.

 

Heavy weapons are different due to myriad of factors but yeah, the special weapons just seem like pointed upgrades that are subpar.

 

You want to hit the enemy at range, go for Heavy Bolters or whatever. You want to kill elites, then go for melta or heavy weapons.