Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Lord Marshal]

Part 3 of the Roundtables - Ze Rules.

[BitsHammer]

6 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Never say never but in the article they pretty much said that they so not plan on making rules for 40k. I guess on purpose so that people interested in them are pushed into HH.

Oh for sure, but it doesn't mean the main studio can't make their own with the signature GK helmets.

[Chyttering]

There are a few wild statements in the new rules commentary that make it seem like they forgot a lot of the rules that existed in 2E. I get hyping the new ruleset, but "now there's a benefit to having a ballistic skill higher than 5", "now having a pistol doesn't give you an extra power fist attack", and "now dreadnoughts can shoot their weapons before charging" all threw me.

Edited July 9 by Chyttering

[de Selby]

I think those are examples of questions that every iteration of the warhammer 40k ruleset has to solve, and so this is how they've approached them this time.

 

There are a couple of bit where they seem to be responding to public comments on the rules info released so far, like "not much will change, you'll just need more centurions" (y tho), and "I don't think melta weapons will dominate" (bet).

 

I'm interested in the interplay beyween the vanguard and line unit types and scoring system, and whether the challenges system actually plays out how they imagine.

[Astartes Consul]

2 hours ago, Chyttering said:

There are a few wild statements in the new rules commentary that make it seem like they forgot a lot of the rules that existed in 2E. I get hyping the new ruleset, but "now there's a benefit to having a ballistic skill higher than 5", "now having a pistol doesn't give you an extra power fist attack", and "now dreadnoughts can shoot their weapons before charging" all threw me.

 

On the Dreadnoughts one, I guess that's just a slightly CLUMSY example of how the new pre-charge mechanic works, rather than suggesting that previously a Dreadnought couldn't shoot in one phase, then charge in the next.

 

I sort of took the Power Fist/Bolt Pistol example to be an indication that they've removed the bolt pistol/ccw extra attack? Which seems uncalled for.

Edited July 9 by Astartes Consul

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya there's a lot of confusion or forgetting how things actually worked. Praetors were taken a lot...in 1st; they were almost completely dropped in 2nd. Damage didn't exist and primarchs could slug it out all game...in 1st; multi wounds in the form of brutal were a big factor for Russ, the lion and Ferrus. Pistols gave power fists an extra attack...in 5th edition; they've never done so in heresy outside of very niche cases where the weapon didn't have Specialist weapon. It's like when the militia PDF came out and they said you couldn't do the fearless horde any more, which had already been stopped way back in 2019. There's some other weird stuff like talking about how techmarines needed a high ld stat to repair, when it's always been a roll divorced from a characteristic (though influenced by equipment).

 

Aside from that, making some of the shooting reactions be snap fires, but making snap fires easier is kinda misses the point imo. 

Edited July 9 by SkimaskMohawk

[Son of Rawl]

1 hour ago, Chyttering said:

There are a few wild statements in the new rules commentary that make it seem like they forgot a lot of the rules that existed in 2E. I get hyping the new ruleset, but "now there's a benefit to having a ballistic skill higher than 5", "now having a pistol doesn't give you an extra power fist attack", and "now dreadnoughts can shoot their weapons before charging" all threw me.

I remember this release being described as a 2.5 type of deal. But it's feeling like a 8th Edition with every article.

Still there's hope, managed to get a ticket for the midnight at Warhammer World, so get to try it out before throwing my wallet at GW.

[Stitch5000]

8 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

 

slightly cumsy 

excuse me sir?

[Chyttering]

9 minutes ago, Son of Rawl said:

I remember this release being described as a 2.5 type of deal. But it's feeling like a 8th Edition with every article.

Still there's hope, managed to get a ticket for the midnight at Warhammer World, so get to try it out before throwing my wallet at GW.

Hard agree. Someone on Reddit phrased it well as "who do they think asked for this?" I think there are some good ideas in the new edition, but more and more I'm thinking about ways to incorporate those ideas back into 2E as house rules - turn Unwieldy into Unwieldy (1) for power axes and Unwieldy (3) for power fists, for example, without completely changing how weapon stats are presented.

[Irate Khornate]

So uhh... This article makes me want to ask two questions. Two major and very important questions that I will likely catch flak for. 

 

Question number one, did any of the design team actually play second edition? 

 

Question number two, how long has it been since anyone on the design team has played a game of 30k if at all? 

 

Melee looks to be just flat-out dead. I don't think anyone was asking for melee to be toned down.

[jaxom]

24 minutes ago, Chyttering said:

"who do they think asked for this?"

The designers did, they made a game they want to play and feel excited about. The playtesters did, they provided feedback which help shape the final rules.

At some point, and I’m not trawling through pages of posts at this point, someone noted that people should remember the designers are also fans of the game. I held off at the time because it wasn’t really relevant; but now it is: people can have a common goal and diverge on how to achieve it. It is a mark of the second part of theory mind to be able to circle the square: other people can think differently. Sometimes the thought process can be followed, and these articles help us understand what the designers were thinking.

Goal: Longer, more cinametic games.

1) Less turns, but more moments of interaction in the turn; more MoI = more interesting, cinematic moments.

2) Consolidate psychology rules into statuses, use descriptive writings to sell the cinema for them. Free up cognitive load for new systems.

3) Challenge mini-game and special gambits for special characters.

4) Consolidate and revamp weapon rules. Open up more meaningful choices for weapon choices. Leads to more list variety.

5) Detachments require more characters to make narrative lists. Feeds back into having more character-driven narratives in games; they become the viewpoint characters, can interact with new psychology and challenge rules. 

One’s perspective on whether the changes achieve the goal is up for oneself.

 

[MARK0SIAN]

“You might need another Centurion for the  new force organisation but that’s it.” Is possibly the understatement of the year!

 

I also feel like they’re obsessing over these new tactical statuses, I really hope they’re not as pervasive as it seems they’re going to be. If I’ve only got four turns I want my units to actually be able to do something during them.

[Chyttering]

2 minutes ago, jaxom said:

people can have a common goal and diverge on how to achieve it.

 

I completely agree, and I think you nailed it across the board in your list of goals. The Phase 1 of initial teases about 3E all sounded like exactly what I'd hoped - multiple tactical statuses rather than a single oppressive Pinning, more nuanced and balanced weapon effects, even a justification for my runaway train of Consul kitbashes.

 

Phase 2 of rules previews have hit differently - what was wrong with the overall premise of movement and charging? Why are weapon types changing? Why do rules like Shred and Hatred now do something completely different than they used to do? It feels like the designers started in exactly the right place, but then kept making changes because the small adjustments weren't enough to justify an entire new set of rulebooks.

 

I'm hopeful that there's a Phase 3 coming where we actually see the full ruleset and I realize that 3E is going to be a great game even if it's more of a departure from 2E than I would have preferred. 

[Astartes Consul]

1 hour ago, Stitch5000 said:

excuse me sir?

 
My inner Fulgrim making an appearance! 

[Mana]

Leaks for the libers are starting to appear (look at the /hhg/ in tg), RG legion tactica is that if they are fired at more than 18" the unit firing has to snap fire lmao. Wait reread the leak, the tactica affects only RG non vehicles units.

 

It appears that each Legio gets 1 tactica.

 

The sky-hunter datasheet leaked, now its called scimitar jetbike squadron, they can deep strike, but can't take a vexilla or nuncio vox. Weapons lists are back it seems for units to choose pistols, melee weapons etc.

Edited July 9 by Mana
more info added, with correction RG tactica.

[Fire Golem]

The legion specific units I’ve seen so far from leaks (Mor Deythan and Dark Furies) do indeed have no wargear options, as was rumoured. I find this utterly baffling, as everything else in this edition seems to be keeping the options from last edition and even introducing new units that you actually have to kitbash, but the second that unit is a legion specific unit, all options are gone. 

[Joe]

It's definitely... odd. I suspect they'll (re)gain new(old) options as the kits transition into plastic.

[Fire Golem]

Just seems a waste of time if that’s the case in a way that’s gonna alienate people for no reason. 

[Joe]

On the plus side, we're 99.9% getting a second Melee Weapon upgrades set.

 

Also mentally noting some units have gained new options that aren't just disintegrator pistols.

[Fire Golem]

Actually Mor Deythan still have the shotgun option which is even weirder because the models don’t. Just seems so arbitrary. 

[Astartes Consul]

Got a horrible feeling that Legion specific units won’t have universally lost all their options…but that it will be completely tied to GW kits.

 

So Mor Deythan have lost their combi-weapon options but kept shotguns, suggesting an upgrade set with shotguns but not combi-weapons is planned.

 

Suzerains might therefore have kept the Thunder Hammer option. As that not exists in an official, plastic upgrade sprue.

 

 Obviously we won’t know until more leaks… But I’m concerned that this will arbitrarily hit some legions more than others. 

[MoriyaSchism]

These leaks don't look good, but I can't say I'm surprised. All the signs were there. I won't be preordering anything. I want to get my hands on the disintegrator sprues from a reseller and maybe wait for some legion specific stuff to be restocked, but I'm putting any Heresy 3.0 plans on hold. I'm looking at the table of contents and the Deathstorm Drop Pod is mentioned. Are they going to sell the old drop pods again? 

Edited July 11 by MoriyaSchism

[Astartes Consul]

Destroyers also appear to be gone now.

 

Hopefully our benevolent leaker shares some more Legion specific stuff so we can all decide how much despair/joy/angst to feel soon

[LameBeard]

I think the point is that GW works so far in advance that the devs have not played 2.0 *recently*. They probably started work on 3.0 the day after 2.0 launched which is why I’m not surprised FAQs are thin. The stuff we see is *not* a response to how the game is played, it just can’t be because the feedback loop can’t fit into a production timescale that’s years ahead. You see this more clearly in 40k: each edition is not solving the problems of the previous edition but possibly the one before.

[sarabando]

lots of rules leaks