Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

8 hours ago, Misterduch said:

So I guess the odds of 3.0 being written by AI increased

Now you know why Gee-Dubbs doesn´t allow art anymore in their books. Hands and feet would look like messy things from horror movies.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

24 minutes ago, HeinzD said:

Thank you very much, but they seem to only have bits and pieces, yet people talk about EC as if the whole liber just dropped, am i stupid?

 

In a post with spoilers (black bars) there's a mega folder linked with leaks.

[Joe]

27 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

Don’t tease us like that man! 

 

Ld Cl Wil Int, vs. LD CL WP IN on every other unit.

[Astartes Consul]

20 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

Ld Cl Wil Int, vs. LD CL WP IN on every other unit.

 

Lmao. Classic Gee Dubz.

[Elzender]

I understand disliking the changes, being frustrated about them, and being worried or angry at having your army rendered unplayable. I am an avid converter and kitbasher myself, and although I do not have a full HH army built yet, I can understand it can be frustrating to have the project you have poured hours upon be invalidated.

 

However, I don't feel insulting and attacking other hobbyists (particularly children) for enjoying the hobby differently (eg: building models out of the box without kit bashing converting) adds anything constructive to this discussion. You can pour your anger/discontentment on GW, but attacking other hobbyists is just going to hurt the community as a whole.

[Nephaston]

Hmm, pity;

Word Bearers lost;

• tainted weapons
• warpfire weapons 
• bolt spitters are now just bolter (which technically was already the case I guess)
• additionally gal vorbak lose any wargear selection beyond what comes with the models
• similarly mahra gal only comes with what is in the kit
• no way to make units corrupte/malefic, though that might have no more bearing beyond simple typing anyway.
• Only one version of Lorgar 

But

• Legion trait is now +1 to combat resolution regardless of result, whereas previously it had to be a tie iirc
• Burning Lore remains, but is even more expensive, Anathemata better be good
• the gambit of beseeching the gods is pretty fluffy and potentially good
• glorious martyrdom remains as the reaction which is nice
• detachment might be ok depending on what "True Believers" actually does
• Zardu Layak get to simply mind control during combat which at least sounds fun

 

Hilariously both Erebus and Kor Phaeron are on the default marine intelligence of seven, which is funny as long as we ignore that it's only meant for technological aptitude.

Guess I gotta wait for the legacies doc or DLC book to see if there will be any customization bits later Or an upgrade kit like SoH and BA got.

[apologist]

Haven't played Age of Darkness for ages, but from what I can see, the core rules look fun. I like the fact that a lot of the old 'success/fail' mechanics have been softened a bit, so there's a bit more granularity.

 

I had a little play around with the leaks, seeing how my Ultramarines would translate into the new edition.  I'm in the happy position that I think I can field my force largely as I envisioned it way back before the HH rules were released. With that said, I'm sorry to see people finding problems fitting things in, though – I had a similar problem in the previous edition, where the way I'd built my Veterans meant they had to be awkwardly crammed in as Seekers. I remember it knocking my enthusiasm.

 

As a minor observation, the new army building method suffers from what happened in Legions Imperialis, in that it's simultaneously complicated and arbitrary. If I'm understanding the word soup correctly, there's not any meaningful restrictions. Do you really only have to take one choice from the Crusade Primary Detachment before selecting whatever units you want from whichever Auxiliary/Apex/Additional Detachments you like?

 

 

+++

 

... and on a completely different note, I think the lack of power fists on Tartaros is deliberate – heralding more of a distinction between the various types of Terminators, and new models. Making Tartaros the faster but more lightly-armed Terminator choice opens up some design space – though I appreciate that's cold comfort if you've got a load modelled with fists on.

Edited Friday at 09:27 AM by apologist

[Nephaston]

Wanna know something funny? They have advertised Erebus having a Gambit in one of the recent articles

 

BUT

he doesn't actually have a Gambit on his own, He is a single page entry on page 278 with Argel Tal immediately on page 279, so no chance of a missing page.

 

What are the chances these leaked books are some form of decoy that aren't the actual actual books?

Spoiler

It's zero.

 

[Vassakov]

5 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Hmm, pity;

Word Bearers lost;

• tainted weapons
• warpfire weapons 

These are both a shame, though Warpfire was ludicrously expensive and rarely did much and Tainted Weapons were resoundingly meh.

• bolt spitters are now just bolter (which technically was already the case I guess)

Yup, I remember spending about 20 mins trying to figure out what the difference between a "Boltspitter" and a "Bolter" was. There wasn't. 

• additionally gal vorbak lose any wargear selection beyond what comes with the models

Presumably Tainted Claws all round? To be fair that's how I ran them anyway, as the resin models are a faff to convert and I've supplemented with converted 40k Possessed.

• similarly mahra gal only comes with what is in the kit

I'd genuinely forgotten it technically had datasheet options lol. 

• no way to make units corrupte/malefic, though that might have no more bearing beyond simple typing anyway.

Sad, but also occasionally backfired *horrifically*. 

• Only one version of Lorgar 

I suspect a "Transfigured" version is on its way from GW. 

 

But

• Legion trait is now +1 to combat resolution regardless of result, whereas previously it had to be a tie iirc

Translation: We now have a Legion Trait.

• Burning Lore remains, but is even more expensive, Anathemata better be good

This is good, as long as we can still pop it on most characters.

• the gambit of beseeching the gods is pretty fluffy and potentially good

Gonna need more details here - I'm guessing there's some kind of Initative penalty but stat boost to represent praying to, as Mira Manga might say, "get a daemon up 'em" 

• glorious martyrdom remains as the reaction which is nice

Might actually be even better in a multidamage edition. Losing only 1 Gal Vorbak to a wall of shooting is always fun.

• detachment might be ok depending on what "True Believers" actually does
• Zardu Layak get to simply mind control during combat which at least sounds fun

 

Hilariously both Erebus and Kor Phaeron are on the default marine intelligence of seven, which is funny as long as we ignore that it's only meant for technological aptitude.

I'd assume high WP for both as they channel the Warp. Also, lets be fair - Erebus was a conniving dirtbag, but "Intelligence" isn't most peoples first impression of him. 

Guess I gotta wait for the legacies doc or DLC book to see if there will be any customization bits later Or an upgrade kit like SoH and BA got.

crosses Tainted Claws for Possessed Saturnine as hinted.... 

 

[roryokane]

9 hours ago, jaxom said:

To be clear: I want conversion and kitbashing options. I, personally, do not think having some units require conversion hurts. What I think can hurt is when it is not clear which units are off-the-shelf and which are kitbashes. I think units requiring actual conversion work are a bad idea because not everyone can pull off conversions; it reeks to me of a form of pay-to-play beyond what is normal.

Fundamentally disagree, because conversion has been part of the hobby from the beginning. If you can afford to buy a box of warhammer, you can afford a few power fists or whatever off eBa, especially as legion heavy support squads exist and require two boxes to make (heavy weapons + a tactical squad for the bodies).
Also it seems in the vast majority of cases being described, it isn't units requiring conversion but weapons options for those units, or even more non-sensically, making loadouts that are in the current box illegal - presumably so they can modify the kit to fit the rules later down the line, which turns your logic on its head.

Edited Friday at 10:45 AM by roryokane

[Nephaston]

7 minutes ago, Vassakov said:

• Burning Lore remains, but is even more expensive, Anathemata better be good

This is good, as long as we can still pop it on most characters.

• the gambit of beseeching the gods is pretty fluffy and potentially good

Gonna need more details here - I'm guessing there's some kind of Initative penalty but stat boost to represent praying to, as Mira Manga might say, "get a daemon up 'em" 

Burning Lore is only for High Command, overlooked that detail... Anathemata better be real good

 

Also 

 

And on the lookout for the True Believers Prime Advantage I overlooked the Zealous Assault Prime Advantage

 

Which begs the question: do we have two prime advantages? If so where is the other one? This better be only missing pages and not severely bungled proofreading.

[Vassakov]

7 minutes ago, roryokane said:

Fundamentally disagree, because conversion has been part of the hobby from the beginning. If you can afford to buy a box of warhammer, you can afford a few power fists or whatever off eBay.
Also it seems in the vast majority of cases being described, it isn't units requiring conversion but weapons options for those units, or even more non-sensically, making loadouts that are in the current box illegal - presumably so they can modify the kit to fit the rules later down the line, which turns your logic on its head.

 

I also disagree, but for a slightly different reason - if your argument is about making your army aesthetically your own, do you need a mechanical incentive or reward in game terms to do the conversion?

 

Like, I am aware I'm being a big facetious here, but (to take the complaint about Varygr Terminators having only Frost Weapons now) ok, your Terminators Legion Special Weapons are modelled as hammers/maces/bits of Kraken/Chainglaives but have one statline - is that a real issue? I personally don't think so.

 

If on the other hand, you're arguing that you ought to have a mechanical benefit because you 3D printed some stuff... that's a subtly different argument. 

[de Selby]

29 minutes ago, Elzender said:

 enjoying the hobby differently (eg: building models out of the box without kit bashing converting) 

I built nearly everything out of the box and I am still having surprising difficulty fielding my armies in 3.0

 

Is it confirmed tartaros terminators can no longer use their power fists?   I haven't seen a photo of the page. Also starting to worry about my tactical marines with chainswords.

[Nephaston]

4 minutes ago, de Selby said:

I built nearly everything out of the box and I am still having surprising difficulty fielding my armies in 3.0

 

Is it confirmed tartaros terminators can no longer use their power fists?   I haven't seen a photo of the page. Also starting to worry about my tactical marines with chainswords.

Unless "power weapon" here includes power fist, which usually isn't the case, then no, no fists unless you use them to build lightning claws.

[Redcomet]

Also again remember that you are all getting a Legion book. So some things might comeback in one shape or form. 

[roryokane]

3 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Also again remember that you are all getting a Legion book. So some things might comeback in one shape or form. 

That's not the point. They're narrowing the options to the current 40k scourge that is "IF WE DON'T MAKE THE MODEL OR WARGEAR FOR IT YOU CAN'T HAVE IT" - one of the reasons HH appeals is that it is much more OLD 40k in its character - both in terms of rulesets but also in terms of attitude to stuff like this.
It's like GW is determined to crush this last hold-out as opposed to just letting people enjoy their hobby.

[Nephaston]

I'm certain Legacies is also gonna be a big document with all the options, but it does sting a bit when you look at the book and it's not an outright undeniable improvement to the previous books.

Also not looking forward having to argue with people that Legacies isn't some form of forbidden tome of sin whose entries cannot ever be permitted.

[apologist]

11 minutes ago, Vassakov said:

 

I also disagree, but for a slightly different reason - if your argument is about making your army aesthetically your own, do you need a mechanical incentive or reward in game terms to do the conversion?

 

Like, I am aware I'm being a big facetious here, but (to take the complaint about Varygr Terminators having only Frost Weapons now) ok, your Terminators Legion Special Weapons are modelled as hammers/maces/bits of Kraken/Chainglaives but have one statline - is that a real issue? I personally don't think so.

 

If on the other hand, you're arguing that you ought to have a mechanical benefit because you 3D printed some stuff... that's a subtly different argument. 

 

Facetious or not, this is an interesting point of discussion. There's a point of design principle here – of granularity in wargear options versus abstraction. There's a balance to be struck; and I'd say that placing restrictions on unit is fine if the design space it opens up is meaningful, but that this should be consistent.

 

When 3rd edition 40k came out, a lot of the individual weapons from the previous editions were homogenised into a few catch-all camps (close combat weapons, power weapons etc.); and that met with similar reactions – howls of dismay from some, indifference from others; some people changing their models to be 'legal', and others sorting it with a chat before the game. In the designers' notes in White Dwarf, I think it was noted that this was likely to be upsetting, and they said that 'counts-as' is fine if you didn't want to take a knife to your models. 

 

This abstracting of the various assault squad weapons is similar to what's happening to the Varygr Terminators (and similar units). Let's call it consolidation – an abstraction in favour of simplifying and speeding things up.

 

However, that consolidation was applied universally – whether Eldar, Space Marines or Orks, your army was similarly consolidated by the universal rules. In contrast, between HH2 and HH3, it's currently looking like some Legions and units retained options, while others didn't – and that does strike me as inconsistent. The Legion Champion being restricted to either volkite serpenta or combi-melta is an understandable position*, but immediately feels wrong when the other officers have free choice.

 

From what the leaks show, it looks like different units have been treated in different ways; and it's not clear why. That's understandably annoying – particularly if you've ended up with a model that (for whatever reason) now 'feels wrong' to you, and doubly so if your mate's force hasn't been similarly affected.

 

+++

 

I think this is also related to two other things. Firstly, that consolidation in the name of simplification and speeding things up seems to run counter to the designer's explicit aim of making the game more involving, complex and rich.

 

Secondly, that the changes are accompanied by potentially unrelated tweaks – things like the loss of Tartaros power fists, which (as noted above) I don't think is consolidation, but rather the deliberate rethinking of a unit to give it more design space to breathe. The Ultramarines new** special unit, the Praetorians, are a better way of handling the desire for a sword-and-board unit than the previous way of adding a set of rules to the Breacher unit.

 

Neither, I think, is a problem is and of its own – but without an overview and explanation, I can see why people are getting grumpy.

 

+++

 

* To be clear, understandable from a game design point of view; but not the option I would have liked.

** New to me, at least – apologies if I'm behind the times!

[Torvak Kyre]

41 minutes ago, Vassakov said:

 

I also disagree, but for a slightly different reason - if your argument is about making your army aesthetically your own, do you need a mechanical incentive or reward in game terms to do the conversion?

 

Like, I am aware I'm being a big facetious here, but (to take the complaint about Varygr Terminators having only Frost Weapons now) ok, your Terminators Legion Special Weapons are modelled as hammers/maces/bits of Kraken/Chainglaives but have one statline - is that a real issue? I personally don't think so.

 

If on the other hand, you're arguing that you ought to have a mechanical benefit because you 3D printed some stuff... that's a subtly different argument. 

When you’ve been playing a game for over 12 years where a power fist does a different thing to a power sword (and still does), saying that a Terminator that is clearly modelled with a power fist, actually only counts as being armed with a power sword for rules purposes throws in some pretty serious narrative dissonance that Horus Heresy always used to be a bastion against.
 

Edited Friday at 10:34 AM by Torvak Kyre

[Robbienw]

24 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Unless "power weapon" here includes power fist, which usually isn't the case, then no, no fists unless you use them to build lightning claws.

 

That's obviously just an oversight though, they've just missed out the 'or a Powerfist for +Xpoints per model, or a chainfist for +Xpoints per model' part.  Will be FAQ'd on day one or a few weeks after release at most.

[LameBeard]

1 hour ago, Nephaston said:

Hmm, pity;

Word Bearers lost;

• tainted weapons
• .

This is my fault. I just built a Word Bearer sergeant with tainted weapon.

[MARK0SIAN]

I can’t believe I’m saying this but I’m missing the days when GW was “a model company not a game company.”

 

Feels like the modelling element is being sacrificed for the gaming element now. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I remember 2nd dropping and waiting for the legacy and exemplary battle pdfs, hoping they would help restore the missing parts of 1st and bring back that flavour. They didn't. There were some hidden gems to be sure, but the legacy stuff didn't restore what was missing from 1st. 

 

We're basically at the "the day 1 patch will fix it" point. Idk if that's ever panned out.

 

Re tartaros being "lighter terminators". The original lore was that tartaros was the perfected Terminator armour. It didn't have the sheer defense of cataphractii, but could Run and even make sweeping advances. It was indomitus+. Not compromised "light Terminator armour" to contrast the saturnine super heavy or cataphractii heavy.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, roryokane said:

Fundamentally disagree, because conversion has been part of the hobby from the beginning. If you can afford to buy a box of warhammer, you can afford a few power fists or whatever off eBay.
Also it seems in the vast majority of cases being described, it isn't units requiring conversion but weapons options for those units, or even more non-sensically, making loadouts that are in the current box illegal - presumably so they can modify the kit to fit the rules later down the line, which turns your logic on its head.

I don’t consider kit bashing and converting to be the same thing. I agree, adding a few power fists from one kit to another compatible kit is a-okay and super easy. Having to saw off the arms from a resin a miniature to give it a Thunder Hammer instead of two-handed sword and hide new joins with sculpted epoxy, not as easy.

 

I also agree that removing/changing options due to future proofing, without openly telling the purchasers is a really stupid idea. I’ve not done a full read of all the leaks (between the vitriol, slurs, and disorder, I can afford to wait) and was unaware they had done so.

 

edit: and due to life circumstances, this whole release, the past year, and at least next year I’ve been unable to do any HH related modeling, painting, or gaming. I think this release sucks overall and I feel bad for the HH community and all its players. I tried finding positives and there’s not much. It was the blatant insults to people who don’t like one aspect of the hobby which got me posting in the thread again. Sigh, it really isn’t worth it. Off the eat glue again, hopefully it’ll keep my hands too busy to post again.

Edited Friday at 10:56 AM by jaxom

[roryokane]

13 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I remember 2nd dropping and waiting for the legacy and exemplary battle pdfs, hoping they would help restore the missing parts of 1st and bring back that flavour. They didn't. There were some hidden gems to be sure, but the legacy stuff didn't restore what was missing from 1st. 

 

We're basically at the "the day 1 patch will fix it" point. Idk if that's ever panned out.

 

Re tartaros being "lighter terminators". The original lore was that tartaros was the perfected Terminator armour. It didn't have the sheer defense of cataphractii, but could Run and even make sweeping advances. It was indomitus+. Not compromised "light Terminator armour" to contrast the saturnine super heavy or cataphractii heavy.

Which is why it shares design cues with the Mk IV Maximus power armour (which was also meant to be quite advanced) and the Contemptor (certainly more advanced than the Castraferrum dreads that replaced it).
If anything the Indomitus is the compromise model - neither as well-protected as the Cataphractii (but a bit more mobile), and not as mobile as the Tartaros (but a bit slower) -  like most Heresy era/scouring-era stuff.

Again - why should we lose out on options, especially ones that are *IN THE KIT*?!

Edited Friday at 10:55 AM by roryokane