Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Valkyrion]

Folk are focussing far too much on the lack of Tartaros Power Fists - it's clearly an omission that will be FAQ'd.

 

Complaining about the quality control is totally fair though. 

[Torvak Kyre]

13 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

Folk are focussing far too much on the lack of Tartaros Power Fists - it's clearly an omission that will be FAQ'd.

 

Complaining about the quality control is totally fair though. 

Power fists and chain fists are also missing from the Tartaros Command Squad unit entry. Not saying that it means it was definitely intentional, but does increase the likelihood imo

[crimsondave]

1 hour ago, roryokane said:

That's not the point. They're narrowing the options to the current 40k scourge that is "IF WE DON'T MAKE THE MODEL OR WARGEAR FOR IT YOU CAN'T HAVE IT" - one of the reasons HH appeals is that it is much more OLD 40k in its character - both in terms of rulesets but also in terms of attitude to stuff like this.
It's like GW is determined to crush this last hold-out as opposed to just letting people enjoy their hobby.

That’s how I took it.  I have never played a single game of HH but I felt like the HH players were people who left 40K for the same reasons I did.  It feels like GW saying “Thanks for your service.  Now please leave.”

[Antarius]

14 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

Folk are focussing far too much on the lack of Tartaros Power Fists - it's clearly an omission that will be FAQ'd.

 

Complaining about the quality control is totally fair though. 

Yeah, that part is clearly just a stupid oversight. The rest does look pretty bad, if for no other reason than it seems very inconsistent.

I do like the idea of "arcane journal"-type publications, but it looks suspiciously like they've gone the route of making the basic lists bad and hoping people will buy the tomes to fix their armies, which is not a good look. Oh well, I don't have anyone to play with at present anyway, so I'll just snap up some mk II marines at some point, I guess.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Torvak Kyre said:

When you’ve been playing a game for over 12 years where a power fist does a different thing to a power sword (and still does), saying that a Terminator that is clearly modelled with a power fist, actually only counts as being armed with a power sword for rules purposes throws in some pretty serious narrative dissonance that Horus Heresy always used to be a bastion against.
 

It's funny how some things are narrative dissonance when it's something people have lost or disagree with, but its fine for things to be purely for game mechanics when they don't make sense but do want them.

 

Are the same people who can't handle the idea of a power fist being a frost weapon also the same people who can't handle saturnine existing en mass for example?

[Joe]

Popped the following email off to Games Workshop. I'm not expecting a response, however they need to be given the feedback regardless.
 

Quote

 

Hi team,

Apologies if this is the wrong email address to reach out to.

 

First of all I wanted to take this opportunity to thank the team for the hard work they’ve put in with the new edition – there’s a lot of really positive changes that shouldn’t be glossed over, such as the splitting up of Leadership into other stats, the new Damage system, the new force organisation system, the changes (improvements?) to titan rules, and the new miniatures that’ve been put together. Whoever worked on the new Mark II has absolutely done a stellar job, and I hoped to be furnishing my army with those kits fairly swiftly.

 

That said, given all the information that’s rapidly pouring out into the wild it’s incredibly difficult to overlook the negatives – the limitation of many, many wargear options on units across the board is antithetical to the legacy the Horus Heresy has established for itself over the last decade, as well as the wider Specialist Games systems that place an emphasis on “build your own dudes.” Many people I know have already commented that they’ve had partial units, entire units or even chunks of their armies invalidated, and were otherwise incredibly excited to continue supporting the system. It’s also growing increasingly impossible to ignore the increasingly negative discourse across social media, and I remain fearful that as the mood continues to sour it will result in a fragmentation of the community.

 

Adding to this – the removal of many wargear from units that have the options available in their kits (see; Tartaros Terminators), or in other unusual cases the removal of units that have existing kits (see; Destroyers) from the core rules is bizarre to an outsider. I understand this may have been done due to forthcoming kit updates, however this has resulted in an added fear (not unique to myself) that we’ll effectively see these options re-sold to us at a later date through the new Journal Tactica books.

 

The last few days have been a wildfire – with the rules contents leaking this has led to a lot of bitterness and divide amongst the community. Some anger I feel is reasonably directed at Games Workshop given the changes to the rules – ultimately, this is your product and you bear responsibility – however we’ve seen increasingly hostile behaviour from certain corners of the community, which led to numerous anti-semitic and transphobic remarks being made against individuals that were perceived as being “at fault” in some regard. This cannot be permitted to continue, and presently stands in stark contrast to Games Workshop’s own “Warhammer is for Everyone” statement.

 

When all is said and done, this situation has proven to be incredibly divisive and frustrating for all involved. The Heresy community as a whole, as quirky as we may be at times, adore the setting and system, and truly hoped for Third Edition to be something we could rally behind. Instead, as previously mentioned, it has resulted in a rapidly growing divide that needs addressing and resolving before the point of no return is reached.

 

Kind regards,
JoeyBear

 

 

[caladancid]

 

Posted two hours ago on the Warhammer IG account. Can not make this stuff up.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Valkyrion said:

Folk are focussing far too much on the lack of Tartaros Power Fists - it's clearly an omission that will be FAQ'd.

 

Complaining about the quality control is totally fair though. 

 

How do they miss power fists on Terminators though? Something like that should never even need to make it to QC. That is on par with forgetting to put bolters on a basic Marine squad.

[Joe]

Or combi-bolters on Gorgon Terminators for a clear and present example. 

[Sky Potato]

Have GW said anything about what you’ll get included if you buy the Saturnine box from them on launch day?

 

When 2.0 dropped, I remember getting a set of metal objective markers and some status cards for buying direct from GW rather than from an FLGS. They also did bundles where you could get the AoS box plus a liber of your choice plus a few other bits all rolled in. 1 click to buy everything new on the 2.0 release.

 

Same with the leviathan launch box for 40K, I seem to remember the offer of free stuff from buying direct from GW.
 

Have I just missed it, or has nothing been said about that in the lead up to tomorrows pre-orders?

 

Pretty poor from a sales point of view really. You’d have thought GW would be trying to push the advantages of buying direct from them before the pre-orders open tomorrow morning.

 

If it’s a guessing game between maybe some limited edition trinkets or a guaranteed 20% discount, I guess I won’t be buying the launch box from GW direct.

 

[Nephaston]

4 minutes ago, Sky Potato said:

Have GW said anything about what you’ll get included if you buy the Saturnine box from them on launch day?

 

When 2.0 dropped, I remember getting a set of metal objective markers and some status cards for buying direct from GW rather than from an FLGS. They also did bundles where you could get the AoS box plus a liber of your choice plus a few other bits all rolled in. 1 click to buy everything new on the 2.0 release.

Iirc the box includes a sprue of markers. Other than that there doesn't seem to be any incentives to order from geedubs directly, except for maybe the maps, which sound more like an additional purchase than a bonus.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

16 hours ago, Shovellovin said:

This is my plan as well. I love 40K models and lore but quit playing/buying/painting 40K because I am tired of the edition churn. My solution was to play Horus Heresy because it scratched my Warhammer itch. I don't want to purchase new books every 3 years. I hate being drip fed rules/content. 

 

The worst part is that it's giving "Rip out of the main game, package it for the expansion in 6 months time" that's weeded itself into the video game industry, and now GW has figured out how to do it for a model game. I mean, we've been getting that treatment for a while now. Look at Aeronautica. Legiones Imperialis. 
 

16 hours ago, Joe said:

I've discussed it with a few friends from across the globe (including an EO) and the general consensus is this may wind up fragmenting the community outright. You'll have a segment that decides to go to 3E, a segment that decides to stay with 2E, a segment that decides to stay with 2E but start rolling in homebrew rules more (see; Panoptica), etc.

 

This is a fairly different situation from previous edition shifts.

Very interesting. If major events start hosting 2.0 in favor of 3.0, will it force the company's hand, I truly wonder. 
 

2 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Also again remember that you are all getting a Legion book. So some things might comeback in one shape or form. 

Sure, in 6 months time? 8 months time? 12 months time? TWO YEARS down the line? Why gut something to replace it 'eventually'? White Scar players not being able to mount their characters on bikes of any shape or form, or Dark Angel players who like Ravenwing elements in their force - why? Because you can package it as a rule to sell in another 25/35/50 dollar+ book? 

It feels predatory, anti-consumer, anti-hobbyist. Couple that with GW's asinine stance on radio silence, zero communication, and what community interaction they have feels token rather than genuine. 

"When will X or Y come out? The community is asking for 'Z'!"
"We don't know, but as soon as we'll hear about it, we will post it here on our community site and pages!"

Aka "Stop complaining, but please do not stop giving traffic to our sites and pages, we have to use money to maintain those."
 

14 minutes ago, caladancid said:

 

Posted two hours ago on the Warhammer IG account. Can not make this stuff up.

Ah, a destroyer being posted after destroyers are cut. As they're so fond of saying it over there, this is "taking the piss", yeah?

 

[Nephaston]

Neat little article and video on how one might expand on the Saturnine Box The video has comments enabled, and the gist of it is as expected.

[MoriyaSchism]

3 hours ago, apologist said:

+++

 

... and on a completely different note, I think the lack of power fists on Tartaros is deliberate – heralding more of a distinction between the various types of Terminators, and new models. Making Tartaros the faster but more lightly-armed Terminator choice opens up some design space – though I appreciate that's cold comfort if you've got a load modelled with fists on.

Is there even a readily available source of normal left arms for Tartaros Terminators? The resin power axe left arm set on GW's website is constantly out of stock and I'm not sure if it's the same scale as the current plastic set. I only own some of the really old Badab War era resin Tartaros Terminator arms and their arms are noticeably thinner than the plastics I have. 

[Vassakov]

1 minute ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Is there even a readily available source of normal left arms for Tartaros Terminators? The resin power axe left arm set on GW's website is constantly out of stock and I'm not sure if it's the same scale as the current plastic set. I only own some of the really old Badab War era resin Tartaros Terminator arms and their arms are noticeably thinner than the plastics I have. 

 

Having built a Tartaros Command Squad recently - no. There's one Power Sword per 5. For the other Power Weapons I used in the squad, I raided some CSM Terminators for the parts and did some trimming and chopping to make it work. 

[Torvak Kyre]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

It's funny how some things are narrative dissonance when it's something people have lost or disagree with, but its fine for things to be purely for game mechanics when they don't make sense but do want them.

 

Are the same people who can't handle the idea of a power fist being a frost weapon also the same people who can't handle saturnine existing en mass for example?

How are these in any way comparable?

 

”The power fist modelled on this guy works differently to the power fist modelled on this guy”  has no relation what so ever to someone bringing a massed amount of Saturnine. 

Someone being a fan of some models and coming up with some lore justification for using an unusual number of them is the core of what Heresy is.
 

Take destroyers for example. They generally aren’t seen in large numbers and weren’t really even a thing in lore til 2012, but they resonated with some people. They then went on to make destroyer companies and other such forces that would see a large number of destroyers in use. They were given a sandbox where they were able to build their own thing and what they were modelling was reflected in the rules, allowing them to realise that narrative. 
 

I’m sure the same will be done by some for Saturnine. 
 

If they turn around and stop allowing destroyers to take rad launchers, and people are just expected to use that model as a guy with bolt pistols, the narrative connection between what you’ve created and what’s going on on the table is interrupted. 
 

Also saying that people ‘can’t handle the idea of a power fist being a frost weapon’ leaves a sour taste. I’m sure everyone here is capable of playing to those rules. But they’re also entirely justified being upset that they’re now forced to do so. 

Edited Friday at 01:04 PM by Torvak Kyre

[Irate Khornate]

So.

 

Tartaros Terminators- absolutely a monkeys paw situation. Folks wanted updated terminators, and it looks like we're getting them but not how we wanted them.

 

Rulebooks- Launching with Day 1 DLC and the community is hoping that so much of the wargear and units missing is either errata'd or in legacies that if it actually is the PDFs might have more pages than the actual Libers and invalidates so many of the unit profiles on day 1. Why would I even buy the Libers at that point? 

 

Models and legality- We've ranted about how portions of our armies have been invalidated, there's nothing more to add. You all have my condolences.

 

Quality control- Lord have mercy you folks have editors don't you? Or was this project so rushed you didn't have time? There's got to be some explanation here.

 

At this point I want to attribute it to Hanlon's Razor and the teams being really out of touch, but a lot of this feels intentional. 

 

[Wugo_Heaving]

 

2 hours ago, Robbienw said:

 

That's obviously just an oversight though, they've just missed out the 'or a Powerfist for +Xpoints per model, or a chainfist for +Xpoints per model' part.  Will be FAQ'd on day one or a few weeks after release at most.

 

1 hour ago, Valkyrion said:

Folk are focussing far too much on the lack of Tartaros Power Fists - it's clearly an omission that will be FAQ'd.

 

1 hour ago, Antarius said:

Yeah, that part is clearly just a stupid oversight. The rest does look pretty bad, if for no other reason than it seems very inconsistent.

 

 

Remember back in 2017 when the final episode of BBC's Sherlock was so bad people genuinely thought it was fake?

 

Now, maybe they will FAQ it, but that's clearly not the point, and the omissions are everywhere, and an FAQ that's as long as the actual book you've paid £30 for is not good enough from anyone, let alone a huge name like GW. How is this difficult to understand?

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 12:58 PM by Wugo_Heaving

[Irate Khornate]

4 minutes ago, Wugo_Heaving said:

 

 

 

 

 

Remember back in 2017 when the final episode of BBC's Sherlock was so bad people genuinely thought it was fake?

 

Now, maybe they will FAQ it, but that's clearly not the point, and the omissions are everywhere, and an FAQ that's as long as the actual book you've paid £30 for is not good enough from anyone, let alone a huge name like GW. How is this difficult to understand?

 

 

 

Hey, could you ship me books lol? Ours in the states look to be 65$ a piece or 48£ and 13 pence.

[Vassakov]

So, I've had an email from my retailer saying they can fulfil my order.

 

I'm going to see if I can get a look at the books as they often have the stock in well before sale date. I'm on fairly good terms with them.

 

If it is as bad as the leaks suggest, I'm going to be cancelling my order of the Liber and suggesting they relay why to GW. Suspect I won't be the only one. I'm not actually that bothered about the design decisions, I've long since stopped caring about these things. Life is too short, and honestly 10th Ed is a very good version of what it's trying to be - if you don't like that, fair enough but that doesn't make it a bad game in and of itself.

 

However, I flat out refuse to pay for what is apparently a poorly written and unfinished book. 

[Joe]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

Popped the following email off to Games Workshop. I'm not expecting a response, however they need to be given the feedback regardless.
 

 

Thread has moved on a bit since the post I made was waiting for approval, but I popped off an email to GW.

[StrangerOrders]

Much as I am not as panick-y about this as some, just disappointed for some legions and units I have, I do think its a bad idea to put much hope in errata and Legacies.

 

In 2.0 Legacies was very much for full units and a couple of units with a notable enough shift to call them a different unit (Jump Packs come to mind). 

 

I don't think the Legacies are terribly likely to makeup the option-bleed for weapons, even if Destroyers and the like are probably in there. We MIGHT see Jump units there and MAYBE TDA versions of some but I would not expect customization to be cured there.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

1 hour ago, caladancid said:

 

Posted two hours ago on the Warhammer IG account. Can not make this stuff up.

 

They're also mentioned in the lore snippets, together with Sanguinary Guard:

 

 

"the more common" :-)

 

[dicebod]

2 minutes ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

 

They're also mentioned in the lore snippets, together with Sanguinary Guard:

 

 

"the more common" :-)

 

I mean, it’s almost a sure bet that both Destroyers and Sanguinary Guard will be in the legacies PDF.

[Irate Khornate]

3 minutes ago, dicebod said:

I mean, it’s almost a sure bet that both Destroyers and Sanguinary Guard will be in the legacies PDF.

Not if they are planning on selling us those rules later.