Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Irongert]

The problem with "waiting for the PDF" lies in the fact that the last PDF was horribly unbalanced. You were actively punishing yourself if you took some units there with how bad they were. So even if units are in there it's not a guarantee. As for the options being removed in and of itself. It's not even a case of conversions going away, FW actively sold 20+ euro packs of weapons to use on models. Now I get punished for doing exactly what they were promoting and enabling, namely kitting out my fancy FW units with nice FW weapons. 2.0 already hit me hard with several hundred euro worth of models being relegated to the role of dust magnets on my shelves. From what I have read so far in the leaks the amount of models no longer useable is a magnitude greater than "just a few" hundred euro across my legions.

 

And yes, in theory it could be used as counting as. The problem comes when other units do get to have those options. You can't say that the thunder hammer on unit A really is just a power sword but on unit B it's a thunder hammer. The unit sergeant of unit C doesn't have a power fist, it's only your imagination but on unit D it IS a powerfist. At a certain point proxy'ing and "counts as" isn't tenable anymore as a solution. Especially with the difference between loyalists and traitors with regards to what options they have. I was on the fence about this edition because I wasn't keen on all the rules changes. Willing to try it bbut not blown away and day 1 purchase material. The amount of models that either have to be taken apart (which I simply refuse to do on fully painted models, I have enough of a backlog to not go and muck about with stuff that is done) or shelved just made me tap out. I'll wait and see what the consensus is amongst the other local players and if they go over to 3.0, plenty of other games to waste my time on other than HH. 

[SalamandersBro]

Imho i like the way they redid the special rules and weapons profile. I still don't get how melta works. My adhd brain is still kinda filtering everything. Not having 3 pages of special rules on the side will be nice. I must be one of the few, the new rules i like the breakdown to teach it and i feel will come more naturally in the long run. And will be easier faq stuff in the future at identifying which step something happens.

[Xirix]

I kinda figured that units that don't currently have any models would go into legacies, which isn't really a big deal I don't think. But the more I read this thread the more I'm confused, Tartaros Termies can't take power fists... the thing they come with? What?

[Stitch5000]

2 minutes ago, Xirix said:

I kinda figured that units that don't currently have any models would go into legacies, which isn't really a big deal I don't think. But the more I read this thread the more I'm confused, Tartaros Termies can't take power fists... the thing they come with? What?

It has "new kit pending" written all over it 

[dicebod]

1 hour ago, Vassakov said:

I think the issue is that there are so many issues and things that might be errors or might be intentional it's genuinely impossibly to tell.

100% this. If every single legion specific unit was locked to kit options that'd be one thing...but why do Lernean terminators get expanded options, when they have a mono-build resin kit like Varagyr? The inconsistency makes it so that we have no idea what's a mistake and what's intentional.

[firestorm40k]

Reading this article, it's dawned on me today:

 

Games Workshop have made this edition for new players. 

 

Think about it - you're new to Heresy, buy Saturnine (which is a fantastic starting point, to be fair), then you buy the latest kits to expand from there. 

 

And that's great for Games Workshop - that helps their sales figures, an influx of people buying their latest product. 

 

Existing players - well, we're not going to help their end of year financials the same way, are we? I mean, take me as an example, I bought in to Heresy at the launch of 2.0, buying almost £400 worth of newly released box sets and Forgeworld upgrade kits. I mean, that was sufficient for a 3k point army in 2.0 - but how does that £400 help GW's end of year financials 3 years down the line? Obviously, it doesn't. 

 

I'm sure that a majority of existing Heresy collectors/players weren't planning on investing in a new army for the new edition. And that's no good to GW, is it? Sure we might get a handful of new releases (in my case, 2 Breacher upgrade kits), but that's not as impactful to their end of year financials as everyone who's buying Saturnine and another £200 worth of sets to do their new army, is it? 

 

So, I'm not saying this to be cynical, I think from their financial perspective, GW feel little or no obligation to keep existing players on board - unless you're buying in for a new army off the bat. It's more sense for them to get the new players to spend £400-odd for their new army to play a new game, than for those of us just looking for one or two new kits. 

 

I've kind of made peace with this now, in a sad way. We've raged about invalidated armies, lost units, lost wargear (with some justification). But I think, at the end of the day, GW has made this edition to get new players/collectors - they've not made it for existing ones. That's trying to look at it dispassionately. 

[Rusted Boltgun]

I was just thinking this @firestorm40k. I bought the 2.0 starter boxes and two of the subsequent battle box but did nothing with them.

 

The new edition is streamlined a bit out of the box to reduce option paralysis when building an army.

2.0 could be overwhelming for a newbie (What's a good loadout? I'm spending a lot of money to make the wrong choice, it's not like when I was 12 and used cardboard counters).

 

Existing players? You're not going to feed the beast unless you buy more stuff so let's invalidate your previous choices / tempt you with new kits.

 

Oof, it hurts to be this cynical.

[Dark Legionnare]

12 minutes ago, firestorm40k said:

Reading this article, it's dawned on me today:

 

Games Workshop have made this edition for new players. 

 

Think about it - you're new to Heresy, buy Saturnine (which is a fantastic starting point, to be fair), then you buy the latest kits to expand from there. 

 

And that's great for Games Workshop - that helps their sales figures, an influx of people buying their latest product. 

 

Existing players - well, we're not going to help their end of year financials the same way, are we? I mean, take me as an example, I bought in to Heresy at the launch of 2.0, buying almost £400 worth of newly released box sets and Forgeworld upgrade kits. I mean, that was sufficient for a 3k point army in 2.0 - but how does that £400 help GW's end of year financials 3 years down the line? Obviously, it doesn't. 

 

I'm sure that a majority of existing Heresy collectors/players weren't planning on investing in a new army for the new edition. And that's no good to GW, is it? Sure we might get a handful of new releases (in my case, 2 Breacher upgrade kits), but that's not as impactful to their end of year financials as everyone who's buying Saturnine and another £200 worth of sets to do their new army, is it? 

 

So, I'm not saying this to be cynical, I think from their financial perspective, GW feel little or no obligation to keep existing players on board - unless you're buying in for a new army off the bat. It's more sense for them to get the new players to spend £400-odd for their new army to play a new game, than for those of us just looking for one or two new kits. 

 

I've kind of made peace with this now, in a sad way. We've raged about invalidated armies, lost units, lost wargear (with some justification). But I think, at the end of the day, GW has made this edition to get new players/collectors - they've not made it for existing ones. That's trying to look at it dispassionately. 

Yeah man. This was the methodology for 2.0 too, in my opinion.

1) First and foremost, glad to have you in the HH community. Especially if the passion for the fluff is what drove you in! Sad to hear the churn's got ya' feeling melancholy. 

2) That's basically how GW operates in all facets. I took a long hiatus between mid 5th and late 8th 40k and when I came back I did a quick inventory of what "Firstborn" stuff had come out since the start of 8th and the numbers were "basically nothing".  That and (much more directly impactful with 'screwing over' legacy players) how they treated my Krieg army in 9th were clear enough indicators for me of where they were going with "supporting older stuff"

3) All of the above is why our entire circle has stuck with 1.0 ("1.25" Mournival stuff with some limits on "special ammos" to be precise).  Talk with your local lads, I'm sure you guys can rise above the churn and keep enjoying 2.0, or go back and give 1.0 a try if that tickles your fancy!  Wishing you all the best in this~

Our circle of 10 guys has pretty much all unanimously agreed that this is looking like more of the same, and we'll keep going strong in 1.25 like we have since 2019. (With backporting some stuff like the saturnine for the folks that want to give them a try, making them along the lines of 30K "Centurion devastator" profiles from 7th edition, or around there)

Edited Friday at 03:58 PM by Dark Legionnare

[01RTB01]

7 hours ago, Sky Potato said:

Have GW said anything about what you’ll get included if you buy the Saturnine box from them on launch day?

 

 

 

They're handing out sets of destroyer rules.

Edited Friday at 08:17 PM by 01RTB01
Apparently I couldn't spell handing

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

31 minutes ago, Xirix said:

I kinda figured that units that don't currently have any models would go into legacies, which isn't really a big deal I don't think. But the more I read this thread the more I'm confused, Tartaros Termies can't take power fists... the thing they come with? What?

A Tartaros squad deep behind enemy lines. Meanwhile in High Command:

 

Adviser #1: "Lieutenant, what are those power fists for?"

Lieutenant: "Severe fisting. Why?"

Adviser #1: "Well, look where your team is. They are right under the primary heat exchanger."

Lieutenant: "So?"

Adviser #1: "So, if they use their fists in there won´t they rupture the cooling systems?"

Lieutenant: "So?! So what?!"

Adviser #2: "This whole station is basically a big fusion reactor, right?"

Lieutenant: -looks around in shock-

Adviser #2: "So she is talking about a thermonuclear explosion and adios muchachos."

Lieutenant: "Oh great, wonderful! #§%&'!"

 

Lieutenant: -uses comm-

"Look, ah, Sarge. We can´t have any fisting in there. I, ah, want you to collect all the power fists from everybody."

Grunt #1: "Is he f#§$% crazy?!"

Grunt #2: "What the hell are we supposed to use, man? Harsh language?"

 

Edited Friday at 03:57 PM by Deus_Ex_Machina

[Allart01]

14 minutes ago, firestorm40k said:

[...]

You are absolutely right about everything, frater.

However, I used to buy quite a lot of GW miniatures with the reasonable expectation that I would be able to legally play with them for a long, long time.

That’s simply no longer the case, and your three-year-old purchase is already obsolete.

For me, this means feeling much more hesitant about buying any new products in the future — including other game systems I might have been tempted to try.

 

Edited Friday at 04:00 PM by Allart01

[jaxom]

24 minutes ago, firestorm40k said:

Games Workshop have made this edition for new players. 

Agreed, this all reminds me a lot of 9th as a transition edition to 10th which I consider the official death of the “old” sensibilities (circa early 90s) and cemented the “new” kit-only options. And it makes sense (from a business perspective) for 40k: 25-ish years means one consumer group is on the way out and another needs to be hooked. I’m not sure if I’d say the same for HH because 2.0 in many ways was the game’s launch to a general population.

 

10th and 3rd are the basis for what to expect if one wants to use your minis for another 15-25 years.

Edited Friday at 04:10 PM by jaxom

[01RTB01]

One potential positive... The edition will only last 3 years then we'll get 4th. Hopefully that won't be as bad...

[LameBeard]

I think someone already posted the “first time?” meme …

[MARK0SIAN]

2 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

One potential positive... The edition will only last 3 years then we'll get 4th. Hopefully that won't be as bad...

4th will introduce a “brand new revolutionary concept” where units that were previously locked to the wargear in their box can now select wargear from a list. What a time to be alive! 

[Wibbling]

23 minutes ago, firestorm40k said:

I'm sure that a majority of existing Heresy collectors/players weren't planning on investing in a new army for the new edition. And that's no good to GW, is it?

 

 

You raise a very good point but at the other end someone looks at a piece of art, or a little bit of lore, at a special rule or even a weapon profile and they think 'I'd like to try that out'. 

 

I'll still buy the new Fellblade, MK 2 assault and breachers. I like the models. If Workshop brought out an Acastus Porphyrion I'd find it difficult to buy just one. However I'll likely just keep to our homebrew or Heresy 2. 

[Uprising]

People wonder why I just paint models, and just don't play GW games anymore.  Good luck to those that stay.  My group have mostly moved on when 2nd edition HH was released, now it looks like a complete rout for those remaining.  

Edited Friday at 04:26 PM by Uprising

[Xirix]

1 hour ago, Stitch5000 said:

It has "new kit pending" written all over it 

I suppose that's one possibility, I'm never a fan of things losing options they previous had though. Especially something like power fists on Terminators, that's just weird.

[BitsHammer]

51 minutes ago, firestorm40k said:

Reading this article, it's dawned on me today:

 

Games Workshop have made this edition for new players. 

Honestly that fits with the whole "hobby funnel" approach to product design the company has too. New players are a broader market than older players and they always want to aim wider for products.

[Astartes Consul]

1 hour ago, Northern Walker said:

Fairly convinced that GW's marketing/community team are really rather stupid. I reckon that if the company spent money on a customer engagement team instead of bribing "influencers" with free models for marketing then they'd a) have a better handle on what the playerbase for their games typically want and b) their communications wouldn't read like amateur hour dross.

It’s more that the Community team is understaffed (for its responsibilities), has a huge amount of product to market and probably has very little clear steer from the other parts of the business.

 

It’s a tale as old as time when it comes to corporate marketing IMO. And in this case, if there is no desire from the top to respond to a crisis (the leaks) then the Community team basically have no choices except hit send on their pre planned content. 
 

If GW wanted a full community engagement team they’d need more staff, including a wider team of dedicated moderators for channels such as Discord, a more joined up events strategy and a lot of corporate buy in. Given the margins they produce products at, I’m not sure ending the Content Partner programme would cover the cost!

[Joe]

Well, we now know Cataphractii are being shown off next week - the new unit comes stock with volkite chargers (matching the teaser), but also goes up to twelve models in a squad (starting at five). The Command Squad variant starts at three models, and can also be upgraded to twelve models.

 

So presumably a box of six, with combi-weapons included. Potentially a cloak and such for converting a Praetor / Centurion.

[Lord Marshal]

Inturesting. At least they can still take Combis/Power Fists I suppose.

 

 

Edited Friday at 05:33 PM by Lord Marshal

[Nephaston]

Max of twelve and a minimum of 5? Makes me hope for some shenanigans in the kit to get weird with the 6th one if you want to go for the minimum.

[Northern Walker]

50 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

It’s more that the Community team is understaffed (for its responsibilities), has a huge amount of product to market and probably has very little clear steer from the other parts of the business.

 

It’s a tale as old as time when it comes to corporate marketing IMO. And in this case, if there is no desire from the top to respond to a crisis (the leaks) then the Community team basically have no choices except hit send on their pre planned content. 
 

If GW wanted a full community engagement team they’d need more staff, including a wider team of dedicated moderators for channels such as Discord, a more joined up events strategy and a lot of corporate buy in. Given the margins they produce products at, I’m not sure ending the Content Partner programme would cover the cost!

I mean, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean I can't complain about the current state of being. Perhaps we didn't know how good we had it back in the "bad" old days.

[StrangerOrders]

13 minutes ago, Joe said:

Well, we now know Cataphractii are being shown off next week - the new unit comes stock with volkite chargers (matching the teaser), but also goes up to twelve models in a squad (starting at five). The Command Squad variant starts at three models, and can also be upgraded to twelve models.

 

So presumably a box of six, with combi-weapons included. Potentially a cloak and such for converting a Praetor / Centurion.

Havent heard that one, any more rumours for the preview?