Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Marshal Rohr]

That was how it worked in 3rd edition and you can still do four deep strikes otherwise. 

[Marshal Loss]

13 minutes ago, Brofist said:

Tried to build some lists today and while I was able to come close to my 2.0 list, they all lost flavor and abilities. 

 

That's my initial experience as well after a couple of hours of playing around with lists. Detachments offer fundamentally nothing that people weren't essentially able to do already via the existing force organisation chart and rites of war. There are some small wins for me if I compare something like a 3.0 list to a 2.0 3rd Company Elite list (e.g. Kakophoni can now score), but that has come at the expense of most of the flavour. No mass augments, no warlord trait, and so on. The combination of restrictions and bonuses offered by rites were what made something like Kakophoni being moved to troops feel significant in the first place. My lists look the same in model terms but feel boring in comparison. 

 

Maybe an Emperor's Children journal in who knows how long will add things that change that picture, but I'd prefer not to wait years and have to pay more money to get back something that I already had and which the faction had already had for nearly a decade. 

[Urauloth]

1 hour ago, Djangomatic82 said:

Interesting, though I don't think it fixes the problem with Deepstriking. 

It might not, but I want to make one and a detatchment full of assault veterans with shields and power swords now.

[Ironwrought Huw]

11 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Tech Marines looking really anemic compared to 1sts glorious conversion beamer, thunder hammer, augury scanner dude with 4 servitors rocking missile launchers.

 

 

(In second edition) First they came for my Forge Lords... and actually, I did complain, because the changes from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition invalidated three different Forge Lord minis I'd made. Seeing Forge Lords get outright binned in this edition has me less than impressed. 

(In third edition) Then they came for my techmarines... and again, I will complain. The change from 2nd to 3rd edition means I've now got 9 techmarines with invalid wargear choices. 1x flamer, 1x volkite, 3x graviton, 1x hammer, 1x MC bolter, 1x shield, 1x melta gun. A techmarine for every occasion.

 

I've got no issue with the new FOC changes requiring characters to open up options and units to an army, it just would have been nice if GW hadn't deleted half of the ones I have, or invalidated the others. The prospect of "don't worry, they might be back in a (paid) journal!" does not fill me with confidence because: 

A) We could be waiting anything from a few weeks to several years to re-gain things we used to have, and,

B) The proof reading. We might get the units back but based on some of the glaring errors we've just seen there's no guarantee the units will actually be listed with the wargear they should have. Or,

C) They might never return at all - which is my real fear. If the studio don't have the time or just can't be bothered to make (for example) a Mortificator, some of these units will be gone for good. 

 

I loved 30K (and older 40K) because of the choice and customisation. Sure, some wargear options were just be better than others. Some options could be a waste of points, some even an outright handicap. But at the end of the day my army is just that, mine. My praevian almost never got to use his power sword but I always paid points for it because of the narrative I created for him and how I used him. If I want to give my units the "less optimal" choice because I like that choice* I should be able to, and more to the point It's on me to find a way to make my army choices work, or just accept that my units will be facing an uphill struggle.

I have an entire squadron of Malcadors for my Iron Hands because I wanted my army to look like it is resorting to pulling the absolute dregs of the legion's reserve fleet out of mothballs in order to keep fighting. I built a veteran squad with power axes and combi-weapons - not exactly the most optimised loadout in 2nd - but I've kitbashed them to look like apprentice techmarines and to act as a retinue for my Iron Father so it works for me and I like the look of it.  

 

I'm a member of three gaming groups that do 30K, one of them is exclusively 30K based. There's about 10 of us 'full time 30Kers' with a broad range of experience - I'd been there since 1st edition (and Badab!),  some joined at the start of 2nd edition, 2 of them are completely new to wargaming. The mood across the groups had gone from enthusiasm last month, to cautious optimism last week, to outright disgust now. Our Night Lord player has 3/4 of his army in need of serious re-building, the White Scars player is pretty much completely wiped out. I was on the verge of starting a loyalist Thousand Sons detachment - now I don't think I'll bother. Independently,  everyone has decided to stick to playing 2nd edition and I know that 4 of the players have decided to cancel pre-orders they'd made with their respective FLGS, with another significantly reducing his pre-order.  

 

I think the only positive thing I and my gaming groups can take at the moment is the knowledge that we're not alone - coming to places like The B&C (or Reddit, or the comments on GW's social media posts) and seeing similar sentiment widely shared has actually been a great comfort. 

 

 

*either because of lore & narrative reasons, or on a much more primal "hurr pretty gun go chooom" reasons. 

Edited Saturday at 07:29 AM by Ironwrought Huw

[Astartes Consul]

Having nice little Auxiliary Detachments tied to certain Consul choices just makes the decision to make Consuls stock options only even more galling, IMO.

 

 

[Doghouse]

With the impending release of HH3 my personal and final take on recent events and the new edition in general is stick with second edition, the main way to beat edition churn is not to take part in it.

 

Older editions of their games still exist and as we've seen with Blood Bowl and Necromunda the community is more than capable of keeping a game alive with or without GW. Refusal to buy their products or play their current editions is going to have zero impact on GW, they don't care because there are always going to be people buying their products who exist outside of the online community bubble. Even a perceived HH3 flop of a launch by the community isn't going to impact them, as Jack Sparrow once said "I love those moments, I like to wave at them as they pass by." You're never going to stick it to the man so to speak so why turn your back on something you already love and enjoy?

 

I realize a massive chunk of the people reading this will pass over this comment or roll their eyes at the old man shouting at clouds, but speaking as a forty year veteran of wargaming who has been there and done that as far as hobby clout and influence is concerned and has worked with and been told that I have inspired thousands of individual hobbyists during my time I will offer this final single sage and hard learnt piece of advice to all of those that do read this.

 

Free your mind and play YOUR game how YOU want to with YOUR miniatures.

[Lord Marshal]

6 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

What’s the loyalist version of the Daemons choice. 

 

Being able to take Talons as Allies I suppose.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

11 hours ago, Nephaston said:

 

WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY SWAMP? All right, get out of here. All of you. Move it. Let's go.

"OH NO! Everybody in this unit has crapped themselves again due to incessant artillery shelling [Status Effect]. Who was responsible to delete our butt-plug wargear option to avoid this cruel fate?! I feel SO SOILED"

[Wibbling]

8 hours ago, Northern Walker said:

I suspect shilling, followed by backpeddling.

 

Nah. Sadly, Workshop won't care. The intent is to push to sell more. That'll mean scrubbing and re-working just enough to cause folk to re-buy minis. I'll bet you now that '4th edition' is a rework too.

 

I understand the business practice. It's clever, as things go. Yet who wanted re-written rules complexity (the deep strike rules above being a key example) 3rd edition? Who asked for Saturnine terminators: which haven't been mentioned in the narrative since the first Black Book. Who wanted the gun turret that's appeared from nowhere (and, I suspect was an easy model to design being a box and 4 repeated elements)? Who did want landspeeders? Morbus bombards, bikes? Now, if they'd said 'here's a whispercutter, that'd be different.

 

It's a complete waste of three years of development effort and rules solely to sell more 'stuff' but then, selling is the point but the demographic is unhappy and unhappy customers don't spend as much.

 

I am generalising, but 30K players seem slightly older, with more 'games' experience (we've played more versions and different systems). We've more money to spend and we do. Workshop have identified this. 

 

Bah. Sorry. It's far too hot in the UK and I am comedically over tired, cynical and fed up. When the Black Books came out they were a labour of love, beautifully written, designed and a muddle but we didn't care because *they* did. Typos and odd rules were worked around because it was different attitude. As those shrank back to the 40K writing level and halved in content but stayed the same price it was clear Workshop had replaced passion with marketing. 

[Lord Marshal]

At the risk of being called a shill, all of the Solar Auxilia content I'm reading from the various sites - aside from the cut stuff obviously - looks vastly improved on the total mess it was in 2nd. Even Legiones Auxilia traits (which were a total grabbag of some fantastic but mostly unuseable rubbish) seem much improved.

 

The bar was low but it was jumped over at least.

 

Edited Saturday at 09:34 AM by Lord Marshal

[Redcomet]

58 minutes ago, Wibbling said:

 

Nah. Sadly, Workshop won't care. The intent is to push to sell more. That'll mean scrubbing and re-working just enough to cause folk to re-buy minis. I'll bet you now that '4th edition' is a rework too.

 

I understand the business practice. It's clever, as things go. Yet who wanted re-written rules complexity (the deep strike rules above being a key example) 3rd edition? Who asked for Saturnine terminators: which haven't been mentioned in the narrative since the first Black Book. Who wanted the gun turret that's appeared from nowhere (and, I suspect was an easy model to design being a box and 4 repeated elements)? Who did want landspeeders? Morbus bombards, bikes? Now, if they'd said 'here's a whispercutter, that'd be different.

 

It's a complete waste of three years of development effort and rules solely to sell more 'stuff' but then, selling is the point but the demographic is unhappy and unhappy customers don't spend as much.

 

I am generalising, but 30K players seem slightly older, with more 'games' experience (we've played more versions and different systems). We've more money to spend and we do. Workshop have identified this. 

 

Bah. Sorry. It's far too hot in the UK and I am comedically over tired, cynical and fed up. When the Black Books came out they were a labour of love, beautifully written, designed and a muddle but we didn't care because *they* did. Typos and odd rules were worked around because it was different attitude. As those shrank back to the 40K writing level and halved in content but stayed the same price it was clear Workshop had replaced passion with marketing. 

I think there is still passion. GW is just a different company now. It is much, much bigger in terms of money, and that brings with it a certain level of demand from shareholders. 
 

But as usual vote with your vallet. Don’t buy anything from GW. Explore third party minis and rules.

 

And it has been 10 years or so since the Black Books stopped. Time to move on.

Edited Saturday at 09:45 AM by Redcomet

[Mogger351]

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-horus-heresy-third-edition/

 

Coverage of the various books as well. Not gonna lie the knights and mechanicum actually sound quite good.

 

Their review of the core rules sums up my thoughts too: overly wordy, meaty, hard to digest but potential under the over complicated technical writing. They seem afraid a lot of new players might bounce off it with the lack of a low barrier to entry game mode.

[Matcap86]

Huh interesting to see the Solar, Mech and Knight factions seem to be quite okay for a lot of people.

[Antarius]

It seems odd and counterintuitive to me that the, vastly overstated, "GW writes bad and ambiguous rules!" cries of old have resulted in GW writing actually bad and borderline indecipherable rules in a futile effort to placate people who can't or won't apply good will and common sense to their reading of the rules, but here we are 

Edited Saturday at 10:08 AM by Antarius

[Allart01]

30 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

And it has been 10 years or so since the Black Books stopped. Time to move on.

The last one (Book IX: Crusade) was released in September 2020. 

[MoriyaSchism]

36 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-horus-heresy-third-edition/

 

Coverage of the various books as well. Not gonna lie the knights and mechanicum actually sound quite good.

 

Their review of the core rules sums up my thoughts too: overly wordy, meaty, hard to digest but potential under the over complicated technical writing. They seem afraid a lot of new players might bounce off it with the lack of a low barrier to entry game mode.

I'm not going to bother reading the rest of this. I got to the Iron Hands part and they call these glaring omissions or errors in the book "a few odd design choices". I expect the rest of their write up to be sugarcoated to all hell. Now I find out the Grave Wardens lost the flamer option that they come with when you buy the set. Did the sergeant lose his combi weapon options as well? Those are in the box too.  

"Overall, marines are off to a good start this edition. Most of the legions feel a lot more like they’re supposed to, each exemplifying the stereotypical style of warfare for their legion. Players are given compelling and narrative tools and choices to make their legions feel like they are supposed to while still being effective on the tabletop."

It's all a bit of a laugh, isn't it? 

Edited Saturday at 10:26 AM by MoriyaSchism

[Waaagh?]

As a narratively driven HH fan, I'm quite happy with what I'm seeing.

 

Yes we've lost units (many many come back in one form or another) but as someone starting another army fresh for 3.0 I'm quite happy with my options and how it all goes together.

 

I think it may need some time to win a few folks round but 2.0 is always there for those it doesn't and you can still enjoy the majority of new model releases still.

[Marshal Rohr]

11 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

I'm not going to bother reading the rest of this. I got to the Iron Hands part and they call these glaring omissions or errors in the book "a few odd design choices". I expect the rest of their write up to be sugarcoated to all hell. Now I find out the Grave Wardens lost the flamer option that they come with when you buy the set. Did the sergeant lose his combi weapon options as well? Those are in the box too.  

"Overall, marines are off to a good start this edition. Most of the legions feel a lot more like they’re supposed to, each exemplifying the stereotypical style of warfare for their legion. Players are given compelling and narrative tools and choices to make their legions feel like they are supposed to while still being effective on the tabletop."

It's all a bit of a laugh, isn't it? 

What did you expect from Goonhammer? Honesty? Respect? Oh no, my friend. 

[Wibbling]

38 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Players are given compelling and narrative tools and choices to make their legions feel like they are supposed to while still being effective on the tabletop."

 

Isn't that for players to decide rather than be told? 

[Nagashsnee]

3 Ed like any edition will have its ups and downs, lovers and haters. My main issue is the job they did supporting 2ed, namely they never did. No errata, no real faqs, no effort to fix the issues the community identified as hurting the game.

 

They did not bother with 2ed and this kills my confidence they will with 3ed. While more factions are playable day 1 (how sad is it that i have to type that), the fact that AGAIN, some players (militia and deamons) cannot PLAY the game tells me everything i need to know about their priorities. 

 

While the unit changes, and equipment are bad, my main issue which they have not and will not adress is this, WHY should i invest in books that will likely have a 3 year lifespan, and 0 support for those 3 years? Forget new minis, or other things, just the 150 off euros for 2 libers and a rulebook. 

 

The fact that we are now in day 3(4?) of the great astartes complain fest killed any remaining hype.

[Lord Marshal]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

What did you expect from Goonhammer? Honesty? Respect? Oh no, my friend. 

 

To be fair they've historically been very savage towards Heresy content. 

[Antarius]

I think I am generally pretty level-headed when it comes to GW and the products they make, in the sense that I don't expect them to make products of any kind for any reason other than to make money, but conversely, I don't expect them to do things to destroy the hobby on purpose for some mystical nefarious purpose. I also usually tend to look at the positives and not dwell too much on the negatives, simply because dwelling on the negatives makes my hobby time frustrating, rather than uplifting and fun. More often than not, this approach leaves me in the "GW apologist and alleged corporate shill"-camp, but I must say I have a hard time seeing the silver lining to HH 3rd ed.

I mean, I certainly understand that a new edition must, by its very nature, mean change and - perhaps more importantly, from a "what actually happens in a new edition" perspective - changes that can be turned into marketing talk. So, mere fine-tuning is rarely the order of the day, simply because it doesn't make for a good sales pitch in the mind of the marketing people. This is also what Jervis Johnson mentions as the most annoying thing about being a designer for GW; you sometimes have to make changes that can be advertised easily, rather than the changes you most want to make. I suspect this is also the reason why there are so many instances of "thing X from the previous is out this edition, then back in next edition", but that's neither here nor there.
I also understand and accept that not all changes will feel optimal to me, personally (indeed, no one change will seem optimal to everybody; that's just the nature of the beast). In the same vein, I expect that perceived "optimal" choices will change with new editions and that armies will likely have to change slightly, either in points value, performance level or makeup. Broadly speaking, I privately dismiss complaints of "but now my überveterans with doomreaper guns aren't as powerful anymore" as pointless.
I also understand and at least tolerate that every edition will be a way to move more product, in the form of supplements, during its lifespan. So I expect a certain level of "this thing will be along in supplement X, Y or Z, eventually". I also, broadly speaking, like the idea of the "arcance journal" supplements.

BUT, one thing that simply isn't acceptable or tolerable is to make a new edition that renders factions from previous editions incomplete until "supplement X" arrives at some unknown time. It's fine to have some factions arrive later if the game is brand new, but it's no way to run a game with two previous editions and a pre-existing community. Even from a strictly cynical point of view, it's just not good business. At this point, that's very much what this edition looks like and it makes me much less likely to want to take the plunge on 3rd edition, which is a bit weird as I am usually mostly positive about new editions.

I guess I don't know where I'm going with this, except wanting to remind everyone that it's your hobby and you should play the version of the game that best suits your needs. Right now, 3rd edition really doesn't look like that game to me, which is both surprising and disappointing.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

What did you expect from Goonhammer? Honesty? Respect? Oh no, my friend. 

 

To be fair, the gentlemen at Goonhammer were pretty upset when the lore for Horus Heresy said Space Marines come from boys because that made it "hard to punch fascists."

 

So there are things that will get them fired up, just not anything related to how the game actually plays. 

[Redcomet]

In order to provide some positivity, I have been watching several YouTube vids, and while most are upset because of what has already been mentioned, the ones that have actually played the game, say it plays a lot better and faster than the previous ones. The have managed several games in one day, that weren’t just 2 turn affairs. They are also positive about the change to vehicles.

[jaxom]

28 minutes ago, Antarius said:

BUT, one thing that simply isn't acceptable or tolerable is to make a new edition that renders factions from previous editions incomplete until "supplement X" arrives at some unknown time. It's fine to have some factions arrive later if the game is brand new, but it's no way to run a game with two previous editions and a pre-existing community. Even from a strictly cynical point of view, it's just not good business. At this point, that's very much what this edition looks like and it makes me much less likely to want to take the plunge on 3rd edition, which is a bit weird as I am usually mostly positive about new editions.

I guess I don't know where I'm going with this, except wanting to remind everyone that it's your hobby and you should play the version of the game that best suits your needs. Right now, 3rd edition really doesn't look like that game to me, which is both surprising and disappointing.

 

After reading some reviews, I am more convinced than before that the haves and have-nots for armies/collections reflects the Designer's and Playtester's personal armies/collections. People who collected smaller forces with a combined-arms emphasis will be fine. People who have a large and varied collection to supplement a skewed Rite of War (Day of Revelations, Steel Fist, Stone Gauntlet, etc) with other units will be fine. I'd guess those two sentences describe the Designer's and Playtesters.

 

18 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

To be fair, the gentlemen at Goonhammer were pretty upset when the lore for Horus Heresy said Space Marines come from boys because that made it "hard to punch fascists."

 

So there are things that will get them fired up, just not anything related to how the game actually plays. 

I like their reviews because they are detailed; I don't agree with their conclusions as much because they have a very game-y way of viewing things.