Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Uprising]

10 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Buddy, read the room, everyone wants the day one one errata. The alternative is that they intended for this :cussshow with the wargear. 

Disagree. People are tired of poor quality control, multiple mistakes, and a company that constantly lies to there customers.  Malice or incomptience does not matter, we got the same results.  Remember when they said " we are not doing drastic changes".  Look at these not so drastic changes.  I fear what a big change would look like.    If this is anything like how HH 2.0 went, we got a few errata, then a reboot.  

[No Foes Remain]

15 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I’m a bit surprised they’re allowing comments, I’d have thought they’d have disabled them by now. 

Me too, their 'pre-order now' video went live I was shocked to see comments still active.

[bloodhound23]

2 minutes ago, No Foes Remain said:

Me too, their 'pre-order now' video went live I was shocked to see comments still active.

 

Kinda sad that they can't even get that part right. Amateur hour with the rules AND the PR team.

[crimsondave]

10 minutes ago, Uprising said:

Disagree. People are tired of poor quality control, multiple mistakes, and a company that constantly lies to their customers.  Malice or incomptience does not matter, we got the same results.  Remember when they said " we are not doing drastic changes".  Look at these not so drastic changes.  I fear what a big change would look like.    If this is anything like how HH 2.0 went, we got a few errata, then a reboot.  

Think that was joke at the expense of how terrible the game looks as is.  Don’t think anyone would disagree the poor QC is unacceptable.

[MARK0SIAN]

What’s weird is I basically stopped playing 40k because of the direction it was going in and my Heresy armies became 100% of my focus. But the main design studio never did anything that affected my armies as negatively as specialist games just did. 
 

Even when they introduced Primaris in 8th it didn’t change or invalidate things for me to the degree the change from HH 2.0 to HH 3.0 has. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Most likely many of you have already noticed, I'm sure, but I just want to say this out loud. Allow me,please.

 

In the end, the current edition of Horus Heresy is a kind of a not-friendly edition for vets, nearly  a "punishment" or "revenge" edition for fans who make transformations to their miniatures, sculpt, 3D print parts and/or buy from third-party companies. We're not only a unprofitable target, we're even "dangerous" for GW, and they make this edition with that idea in mind.

 

It is clear that this is the case, and that the whole "making it attractive to newcomers" thing is a ridiculous excuse (Just looking at the rulebook and its format makes it clear. I don't think many new fans would be attracted to a 358-page hardcover behemoth, which is also one of the minimum 2 books needed to play,right?) I fear that Horus Heresy has become almost the same rubbish as the last editions of W40K.

 

Disappointed? A bit,maybe. Surprised? At my age and after so may years, not at all.

 

That's all 

[bloodhound23]

Not sure how increasing rules bloat is good for newcomers in either game system, but that seems to be a foregone conclusion, as evidenced by more than a few edition changes.

[MARK0SIAN]

3 minutes ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

Most likely many of you have already noticed, I'm sure, but I just want to say this out loud. Allow me,please.

 

In the end, the current edition of Horus Heresy is a kind of a not-friendly edition for vets, nearly  a "punishment" or "revenge" edition for fans who make transformations to their miniatures, sculpt, 3D print parts and/or buy from third-party companies. We're not only a unprofitable target, we're even "dangerous" for GW, and they make this edition with that idea in mind.

 

It is clear that this is the case, and that the whole "making it attractive to newcomers" thing is a ridiculous excuse (Just looking at the rulebook and its format makes it clear. I don't think many new fans would be attracted to a 358-page hardcover behemoth, which is also one of the minimum 2 books needed to play,right?) I fear that Horus Heresy has become almost the same rubbish as the last editions of W40K.

 

Disappointed? A bit,maybe. Surprised? At my age and after so may years, not at all.

 

That's all 

I think you’re right but, as someone else said earlier in the thread, I think this has the potential to backfire on them in a way that it doesn’t with 40K or even AoS. 
 

I just don’t see HH having the steady influx of new players like those other games that allow them to compensate for alienating existing customers. 
 

But then again, GW is a company that seems to succeed in spite of itself rather than because of itself. Its sales keep going from strength to strength, as do its profits so they’re either business masterminds or they have a seven leafed clover stored in a vault.

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

But then again, GW is a company that seems to succeed in spite of itself rather than because of itself. Its sales keep going from strength to strength, as do its profits so they’re either business masterminds or they have a seven leafed clover stored in a vault.

 

Functionally, its a monopoly. No matter how bad their rules are, and lets own up to it here folks the rules are generally not great if not outright bad, they still sell. AoS v1 was a joke, it still sold. Many have been beta testing 10th edition for years, its still selling.

 

The 'community' has spoken, and they do not care how bad the rules are.

[Mike8404]

Honestly,  this hadn't disuaded me at all.  I stayed away from 2.0 because I was just starting an army.  I'm thankful I was lucky and nothing I have is illegal, I know how much that utterly sucks. 

 

I am excited about me creativity and freedom with list building, though.   Maybe I'll finally get to have my Deathwing Companions army I've wanted for years 

[MARK0SIAN]

6 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Functionally, its a monopoly. No matter how bad their rules are, and lets own up to it here folks the rules are generally not great if not outright bad, they still sell. AoS v1 was a joke, it still sold. Many have been beta testing 10th edition for years, its still selling.

 

The 'community' has spoken, and they do not care how bad the rules are.

Sad but true :(

 

I think the quality of the minis does a lot heavy lifting for GW. Not every design knocks it out of the park but a lot of them are pretty good and generally the production quality is high. I think they’d be in real trouble if that advantage went away.

[Castellan Wulfrik]

I held back from commenting as things rapidly fell apart with the leaks as I had nothing positive at all to take from them. However, now I think this could at least be good for us in the long-term, force us off Jimmy’s teat. I think 3rd edition is dead on arrival, players were already moving towards fan rules and this will expedite the process. Why pay for multiple books you can’t even use your models with when you can get a superior ruleset for free?

In today’s online age where everyone is connected through discord, social media groups and websites GW don’t have any control over how people play outside of their own stores. If GW flop with the next edition of 40K we could be see a mass push towards fan rules that ultimately forces them to change their business model, which would be best for all parties. GW putting out basic rulesets for new players in their stores and everyone else playing popular rulesets, but this is something we have to do ourselves we can’t keep waiting for GW any longer. Rather than this divisive shower we have right now where every new edition is splitting the community. 

[Indy Techwisp]

26 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Functionally, its a monopoly. No matter how bad their rules are, and lets own up to it here folks the rules are generally not great if not outright bad, they still sell. AoS v1 was a joke, it still sold. Many have been beta testing 10th edition for years, its still selling.

 

The 'community' has spoken, and they do not care how bad the rules are.

 

This argument works if the issue is 40k, but the system at fault here is Horus Heresy.

HH doesn't have anywhere near as large a player base as 40k and the response to this edition is certainly not making HH look like a game that's gonna have a large enough player base to be worth getting into.

 

I, for one, am well aware that there's no point to me getting into HH with the new edition because the majority of the local HH players have already thrown their armies onto Facebook Marketplace.

Edited Saturday at 09:54 PM by Indy Techwisp

[brother_b]

Probably true, but they’re sure pushing HH, and the sheer number of new plastic kits have me thinking it’s done pretty well. I think there will be some damage control and we’ll see as the edition slowly pans out.

 

They have One Page Rules for HH?

[Matcap86]

And yet, several of my FLGS's are warning they're selling out of their copies of Saturnine. I think the old Apocryphal statistic of "the majority of GW's customers don't play their games" seems pretty true. 

 

I always wanted a Horus Heresy army, have almost all the original Black Books, have most of the SoH and DA kits, with 3d printed bits and I think in total a 100ish marines. Never played a game. Not 1st edition, not 2nd edition and I doubt I'll play in 3rd edition. 

 

Might explain their success: the game focussed clientele is also more socially oriented, likely to gather in clubs and online, so is also easier vocally visible in those spaces. The people like me who go: "Yay new mk2 marines... What do you mean? What's a Weapon Skill?" are meanwhile just silently buying up the boxes. 

[Castellan Wulfrik]

21 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

And yet, several of my FLGS's are warning they're selling out of their copies of Saturnine. I think the old Apocryphal statistic of "the majority of GW's customers don't play their games" seems pretty true. 

 

I always wanted a Horus Heresy army, have almost all the original Black Books, have most of the SoH and DA kits, with 3d printed bits and I think in total a 100ish marines. Never played a game. Not 1st edition, not 2nd edition and I doubt I'll play in 3rd edition. 

 

Might explain their success: the game focussed clientele is also more socially oriented, likely to gather in clubs and online, so is also easier vocally visible in those spaces. The people like me who go: "Yay new mk2 marines... What do you mean? What's a Weapon Skill?" are meanwhile just silently buying up the boxes. 

To an extent, model sales aren’t tied to book sales though. If liber sales are down then it will still hurt their numbers and the GW bean counters will notice. What they’ll do in response long term though is anyone’s guess. 

[BitsHammer]

So GW missed an opportunity with not restocking the resin kits when the pre-order went live. Like I won't pretend that there are people who aren't buying this stuff now, but of those who are GW missed a chance to make more money.

 

Unless the goal is to just leave that stuff out of stock until they can replace it with plastic.

[Dhar'Neth]

Just a thought - when they release new cataphractii, then what will happen to Sekhmet? They are plastic/resin combo. Will they discontinue them? Same problem when we will get new mk4 with Khenetai an alpha legion headhunters.

This make it plausible that we will get new models for those legions either via upgrade kits or new resin. 

[Jings]

So I'm desperately trying to find a silver lining here, but there's only two real realistic options. 1. Mass adoption of Panoptica 2nd Edition which for the most part has all the new units covered already, or 2. A similar Panoptica-style or sequel for 3rd Edition that all but replaces the present Libers. The problem, as it was in 2.0, is going to be the lack of Roster editors for those which will make it a lot more difficult to convince others in your respective gaming spheres to pick it up. 

 

I still cannot get over how solid the core rules are compared to how brutally GW have dropped the ball on the Libers. It's like opening a bag of crisps and finding out there's no seasoning. 

[BitsHammer]

6 minutes ago, Jings said:

So I'm desperately trying to find a silver lining here, but there's only two real realistic options. 1. Mass adoption of Panoptica 2nd Edition which for the most part has all the new units covered already, or 2. A similar Panoptica-style or sequel for 3rd Edition that all but replaces the present Libers. The problem, as it was in 2.0, is going to be the lack of Roster editors for those which will make it a lot more difficult to convince others in your respective gaming spheres to pick it up. 

 

I still cannot get over how solid the core rules are compared to how brutally GW have dropped the ball on the Libers. It's like opening a bag of crisps and finding out there's no seasoning. 

This edition is definitely a real mixed bag of stuff I like and stuff I don't. It's like if someone mixed a good bag of chips with cheap stale ones of the same flavor.

 

Maybe the journals will bring stuff back, but the way they cut the legion rules down really smells of management meddling to not promote stuff they don't make kits for and a push to simplify the rules in a misguided belief that rules can't have wider appeal if they're more complicated while making them more wordy in hopes of not "wasting" money on having the team do FAQs instead of working in more books.

[Marshal Loss]

18 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

So GW missed an opportunity with not restocking the resin kits when the pre-order went live. Like I won't pretend that there are people who aren't buying this stuff now, but of those who are GW missed a chance to make more money.

 

Unless the goal is to just leave that stuff out of stock until they can replace it with plastic.

 

Yeah this just occurred to me as well. Things like contemptor torsos and deimos doors have been out of stock for every legion worldwide (as far as I know) for like 6+ months. They didn't do any accompanying legion dice or anything this time around either

 

10 minutes ago, Jings said:

I still cannot get over how solid the core rules are compared to how brutally GW have dropped the ball on the Libers. It's like opening a bag of crisps and finding out there's no seasoning. 

 

I think this is the most delicate yet firmly worded summation of 3.0's issues I've read yet. Where is our seasoning, GW 

[Matcap86]

21 minutes ago, Castellan Wulfrik said:

To an extent, model sales aren’t tied to book sales though. If liber sales are down then it will still hurt their numbers and the GW bean counters will notice. What they’ll do in response long term though is anyone’s guess. 

I think the books are a drop in the bucket compared to the minis. Speculation but they might be viewed as loss leaders in the company; stuff you hopefully break even on, but their main job is to give people a reason to buy the minis.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

Wish I could take credit for this…

[MagicHat]

Having read Goonhammer and Spruesandbrews mechanicum review...

Am I crazy, or does Mechanicum sound like they come out fairly well?

Arquitor Magisterum going into command, and +1WS, +3A, infiltrate and apparently full access to melee weapons list?

The detachments looks like they work out well for the various archetypes.

Ursarax with full powerfists, Thallax that can buy as many weapon upgrades as they want.

Only thing I haven't been sold on is Tech-thralls with T5 for 10 pts.

 

What do we lose, jet pack Arch-magos, Arlatax (Journal most likely) Ordinatus and Calleb (Legends most likely)?

Now give us kits for Myrmidons and the troop tech-priest GW!

[ThaneOfTas]

2 hours ago, brother_b said:

They have One Page Rules for HH?

OPR is like the philosophical antithesis to HH, part of the reason that I have been moving away from 40k is because it is becoming more abstract and gamified like OPR is.