Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, Matcap86 said:

I think the books are a drop in the bucket compared to the minis. Speculation but they might be viewed as loss leaders in the company; stuff you hopefully break even on, but their main job is to give people a reason to buy the minis.

From what I understand book sales matter to GW, but it's clear that they aren't the primary driver for sales. If they were a loss leader we wouldn't pay so much for them.

 

I think they used to be a loss leader when they were paperbacks and in black and white (hence why they went with cheaper printing options), but when they decided that books needed to make money they dropped that.

9 minutes ago, ThaneOfTas said:

OPR is like the philosophical antithesis to HH, part of the reason that I have been moving away from 40k is because it is becoming more abstract and gamified like OPR is.

I wouldn't put 40k on OPR's level since OPR is like 3rd edition with all the interesting bits sanded off so they can fit an arbitrary page count, but on a spectrum from "war" to "game" GW has been moving more towards game over the last few editions. Honestly if you told me they were taking notes from board game designers I wouldn't be surprised.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I like how goonhammer frames every change as a positive in their what changed article. 

 

Like, some are genuine positives; the wound allocation system of 2nd was the worst ever and I'm glad it's gone. Fewer reactions is great too.

 

But everything is "this changed, and that's good because people were tired of measuring rapid fire" or "it's good that gamey-aspects like being locked to combat or being run down if you didn't manage to run away from combat are gone, meanwhile vehicles are damaged in a very game-ified way and that's good!". 

[BitsHammer]

3 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I like how goonhammer frames every change as a positive in their what changed article. 

 

Like, some are genuine positives; the wound allocation system of 2nd was the worst ever and I'm glad it's gone. Fewer reactions is great too.

 

But everything is "this changed, and that's good because people were tired of measuring rapid fire" or "it's good that gamey-aspects like being locked to combat or being run down if you didn't manage to run away from combat are gone, meanwhile vehicles are damaged in a very game-ified way and that's good!". 

Honestly since they dropped the round table article approach to reviewing every release I've felt their quality has dropped.

[N1SB]

11 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

I think they used to be a loss leader when they were paperbacks and in black and white (hence why they went with cheaper printing options), but when they decided that books needed to make money they dropped that.

 

Are you saying books were a razor/razorblade to sell minis until GW realised they could sell the books as collector's items?

BWAHAHA that's so ridiculously hilarious...because I think you're spot on, you're actually totally right, well-analysed.  Oh my cog.

 

In the meantime, Fraters et Sororitas, I have question.  I was flipping through what Brother Nephaston kindly shared:

 

 

I be skimming and shizz, looking at the how Vehicles and Automata can't be in the Sorcerer Cults, looking at that pretty Leviathan Dread...

 

Dreads aren't Vehicles or Automata.  They're Walkers.  Can I make the Sorcerer Shang "your soul is mine" Tsung as a Melee Contemptor Dread?

 

And important follow-up question: Where my Fury of the Ancients at?  Goonhammer made a passing reference to it, but might be speaking figuratively.

 

(I ask this knowing Rites of War means something different, but if there's some funky Detachment that does the same thing, s'all good wit me.)

[Black Cohort]

Anyone who followed the train wreck that was the Legions Imperialis release could have predicted most of the stuff happening with HH 3.0. 

[Irate Khornate]

2 hours ago, N1SB said:

 

Are you saying books were a razor/razorblade to sell minis until GW realised they could sell the books as collector's items?

BWAHAHA that's so ridiculously hilarious...because I think you're spot on, you're actually totally right, well-analysed.  Oh my cog.

 

In the meantime, Fraters et Sororitas, I have question.  I was flipping through what Brother Nephaston kindly shared:

 

 

I be skimming and shizz, looking at the how Vehicles and Automata can't be in the Sorcerer Cults, looking at that pretty Leviathan Dread...

 

Dreads aren't Vehicles or Automata.  They're Walkers.  Can I make the Sorcerer Shang "your soul is mine" Tsung as a Melee Contemptor Dread?

 

And important follow-up question: Where my Fury of the Ancients at?  Goonhammer made a passing reference to it, but might be speaking figuratively.

 

(I ask this knowing Rites of War means something different, but if there's some funky Detachment that does the same thing, s'all good wit me.)

So I don't play with or against sorcerers, if someone ported over the arcana rules of 3rd edition into 2nd edition, would that fix Thousand Sons without busting them?

[Djangomatic82]

8 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Have you seen the BA in 3rd edition? They are pretty awesome. I can't wait to field mine about cuase mass panic assualts.

yeah, I'm not seeing it. 

The changes to melee alone have really gutted BA. We have on average 1/2 to 1/4 of the attacks we used to.

Of our special units, only the Dawnbreakers have come out not gutted in the 3e switch. The Angels Tears have been downgraded to only having twin Volkite Sepentas or Rad Grenade Launchers, no melee weapons at all.

The Changes to deep striking have killed any hope of a Day of Revelation build. We are all locked into only 1 deep striking unit per turn, in a 4 turn game. The furthest a JP unit can charge is 6-11"" now and you have to be in base to base contact, otherwise you fail the charge.

The Legion Tactic of +1S on the charge may have been good, but it looks like instant death on doubling out S on the attack may have been removed.

Overall, I think melee armies may have been "Over Corrected" this edition.

[brother_b]

3 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

OPR is like the philosophical antithesis to HH, part of the reason that I have been moving away from 40k is because it is becoming more abstract and gamified like OPR is.

I don’t know much about it I thought it was like older school 40K. Guess not.

[Urauloth]

44 minutes ago, brother_b said:

They have One Page Rules for HH?

 

Nothing official, but the community has a ton of stuff and it's very easy to use the points calulator etc to make your own. I picked up OPR Firefight myself because there's no Heresy skirmish game and I like it a lot.

[Shovellovin]

9 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I think you’re right but, as someone else said earlier in the thread, I think this has the potential to backfire on them in a way that it doesn’t with 40K or even AoS. 
 

I just don’t see HH having the steady influx of new players like those other games that allow them to compensate for alienating existing customers. 
 

But then again, GW is a company that seems to succeed in spite of itself rather than because of itself. Its sales keep going from strength to strength, as do its profits so they’re either business masterminds or they have a seven leafed clover stored in a vault.

I think another issue is that even if a significant amount of people want to start playing HH, they can’t due to the lack of available kits. I’m not sure if other regions have his issue but in the States quite a few HH kits are unavailable and have been for months now. MK 3, 4 & 6, Tartaros & Cataphractii terminators, 
Contemptor & Leviathan dreadnoughts, all heavy, special and melee weapon kits, rhinos, etc., are out of stock. It is wild to release a launch box and not have basic kits available for customers. 
 

if HH is meant to be on a 3 year cycle like 40K and AOS, then GW is going to have to really ramp up their ability to keep product in stock. Bringing in a sizable amount of customers to a game is great for selling launch boxes but if those customers are unable to purchase product to expand their armies then they may move on to other games/systems. 

[Mandragola]

5 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

Honestly since they dropped the round table article approach to reviewing every release I've felt their quality has dropped.

We have a round table review if you’re interested. https://www.goonhammer.com/horus-heresy-third-edition-roundtable/
 

The particular bit where we’re all listing positive rules changes is probably answering a question: “What is your favourite new rule or sub-system?“ so yes, it’s talking about things we like. Our opinions vary on that. 
 

Elsewhere in the article we talk about things we don’t like. We’re pretty universally annoyed at the loss of customisation. Not all of us are jumping in with both feet to start new armies. I’m not. I’m frustrated that my current Raven Guard contain both units I can’t use any more at all, and some, like seekers, that look broken. The new saturnine stuff doesn’t really suit my army and I don’t love the models anyway. Overall I’m not sure I’ll keep playing. 
 

One issue for reviewers is that obviously we’ve had the rules for a little while before everyone else. By the time we publish stuff the initial shock, which was as much for us as it was for anyone, is starting to wear off for us. That can mean being out of step with people who are just learning how their favourite character, or worse their entire drop pod army, now doesn’t work. 
 

I do like most of the rules changes. The damage stat is an obvious and excellent change. I’m not sure it’s good to have got rid of rapid fire and just given things 2 shots. Maybe for bolters it is as it makes tactical marines more than just scoring unit tokens. The implementation of Heavy weapons isn’t great for me as it turns things like predators and Javelins into turrets, while letting Kratos and Super-heavies cruise around firing at full effect. I think you can go too far with a rhino going 12”, followed by a 7” move and potential charge. Having said that, it looks pretty tough for melee and some assault units, like assault marines and despoilers, seem far less good on paper. They have fewer attacks and no rerolls to hit or wound, so they’re less effective in melee than a tactical legionary is at shooting. 

[MARK0SIAN]

42 minutes ago, Shovellovin said:

I think another issue is that even if a significant amount of people want to start playing HH, they can’t due to the lack of available kits. I’m not sure if other regions have his issue but in the States quite a few HH kits are unavailable and have been for months now. MK 3, 4 & 6, Tartaros & Cataphractii terminators, 
Contemptor & Leviathan dreadnoughts, all heavy, special and melee weapon kits, rhinos, etc., are out of stock. It is wild to release a launch box and not have basic kits available for customers. 
 

if HH is meant to be on a 3 year cycle like 40K and AOS, then GW is going to have to really ramp up their ability to keep product in stock. Bringing in a sizable amount of customers to a game is great for selling launch boxes but if those customers are unable to purchase product to expand their armies then they may move on to other games/systems. 

You make a great point! In the UK the stock issues aren’t quite as bad as you describe for the US but they’re still not good. Basic kits can be hard to get hold of and as for resin stuff like characters, it can be months before they are back in stock for a day or two then gone again. I had been thinking they were keeping minimal stock available so that they could build up a large inventory of it ready for the release of 3.0 but that doesn’t seem to have materialised. 

[Jings]

58 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

We have a round table review if you’re interested. https://www.goonhammer.com/horus-heresy-third-edition-roundtable/
 

The particular bit where we’re all listing positive rules changes is probably answering a question: “What is your favourite new rule or sub-system?“ so yes, it’s talking about things we like. Our opinions vary on that. 
 

Elsewhere in the article we talk about things we don’t like. We’re pretty universally annoyed at the loss of customisation. Not all of us are jumping in with both feet to start new armies. I’m not. I’m frustrated that my current Raven Guard contain both units I can’t use any more at all, and some, like seekers, that look broken. The new saturnine stuff doesn’t really suit my army and I don’t love the models anyway. Overall I’m not sure I’ll keep playing. 
 

One issue for reviewers is that obviously we’ve had the rules for a little while before everyone else. By the time we publish stuff the initial shock, which was as much for us as it was for anyone, is starting to wear off for us. That can mean being out of step with people who are just learning how their favourite character, or worse their entire drop pod army, now doesn’t work. 
 

I do like most of the rules changes. The damage stat is an obvious and excellent change. I’m not sure it’s good to have got rid of rapid fire and just given things 2 shots. Maybe for bolters it is as it makes tactical marines more than just scoring unit tokens. The implementation of Heavy weapons isn’t great for me as it turns things like predators and Javelins into turrets, while letting Kratos and Super-heavies cruise around firing at full effect. I think you can go too far with a rhino going 12”, followed by a 7” move and potential charge. Having said that, it looks pretty tough for melee and some assault units, like assault marines and despoilers, seem far less good on paper. They have fewer attacks and no rerolls to hit or wound, so they’re less effective in melee than a tactical legionary is at shooting. 

 

That makes a fair bit of sense. Haven't quite understood the flak you guys got, given you (quite rightly) pointed out that some of the changes are particularly off-putting. I've said a few times that the core rules look solid for the most part, so it's a positive to hear that seems to be true with people that have gotten their games in. A shame that the Liber rules have turned out to be such a disappointment though. I suppose once the dust has settled we'll see how liberal we'll have to be with house ruling and homebrew to make armies feel how they used to. As someone who's primary interest in the hobby is model-making and conversion work though, the Liber side has proven incredibly disappointing in its simplification after how promising the Core rules were. 

Edited Sunday at 07:46 AM by Jings

[Pearson73]

Not much new to add from my side, but I'll reiterate what others have said regarding the core rules - they do seem pretty solid and fun with lots of options for cinematic events. Moreover it seems that only some of the Libers are messed up. Mechanicum look to be in a decent place, though I do feel that Thallax may be completely ridiculous given that they've nearly halved in points. A very mixed bag overall, really solid in parts and just riduculously poor in others.

[Redcomet]

It is the crazy to me how much of a stranglehold edition changes has on the warhammer community. No one is forcing you to play using the current rules. Yeah sure if you play tournaments every week it is really bad, but I can’t see why groups of players can’t agree to just stay with 2nd for the next 3 years

[Marshal Loss]

23 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

It is the crazy to me how much of a stranglehold edition changes has on the warhammer community. No one is forcing you to play using the current rules. Yeah sure if you play tournaments every week it is really bad, but I can’t see why groups of players can’t agree to just stay with 2nd for the next 3 years

 

I understand where you're coming from, but the answer is because it's not that simple for most folks. Not everybody has a nearby group or a FLGS with a reliable community they can come to agreements like that with, and relatively few are as tuned in to what's going on and the global state of the community as the kinds of people having discussions here. It isn't a case of people being hypnotised by the GW machine, it's just that it will be easier for people to go with what's currently being supported. 

[Captain Idaho]

28 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

It is the crazy to me how much of a stranglehold edition changes has on the warhammer community. No one is forcing you to play using the current rules. Yeah sure if you play tournaments every week it is really bad, but I can’t see why groups of players can’t agree to just stay with 2nd for the next 3 years

 

Whilst the theoretical of this seems like it holds true, I must contest that the practical is people don't play dead games very often.

 

We can all see an anecdote that crops up from someone on the Internets that they play old editions, but reality is these are drops in the ocean. After all, we aren't seeing people playing 5th edition 40K in the local club as anything bar a one off.

 

Even then, I'll combat the anecdote of "I play 4th edition fantasty every week with my 18 friends" with my own - I have 19 friends and none of them play anything bar modern games.

 

Ok I'm being facetious and me and some guys are looking to get into BFG with the help of 3D printers. But then that exception proves the rule - it's a one off and there's ZERO current rules for it.

 

That's unfortunately the point we all have to live with.

 

And if edition changes didn't matter, then GW wouldn't do them eh...

 

****

 

I've just cancelled my copy of Liber Astartes. Game will be a hard push on my group now and I have work and other things to do with my life. Like posting here.

 

Sure I'm just one person and his friends, but if that's replicated up and down the country...

[Antarius]

While playing previous editions isn't nearlly as easy as playing the current edition, it doesn't have to be impossible - in fact, I'd contend that it's more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than anything else. With a game like Horus Heresy that's already somewhat niche and tends to depend on having a regular gaming group, it shouldn't be impossible at all to just stick to 2nd edition, especially if most of the people in your group don't like 3rd edition.

 

I also sort of wonder how feasible it would be to use the old libers with the new rules, since the consensus seems to be that the core rules are okay. But yeah, it would probably be more work than houseruling the new libers...

Edited Sunday at 10:29 AM by Antarius

[Redcomet]

14 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Whilst the theoretical of this seems like it holds true, I must contest that the practical is people don't play dead games very often.

 

We can all see an anecdote that crops up from someone on the Internets that they play old editions, but reality is these are drops in the ocean. After all, we aren't seeing people playing 5th edition 40K in the local club as anything bar a one off.

 

Even then, I'll combat the anecdote of "I play 4th edition fantasty every week with my 18 friends" with my own - I have 19 friends and none of them play anything bar modern games.

 

Ok I'm being facetious and me and some guys are looking to get into BFG with the help of 3D printers. But then that exception proves the rule - it's a one off and there's ZERO current rules for it.

 

That's unfortunately the point we all have to live with.

 

And if edition changes didn't matter, then GW wouldn't do them eh...

 

****

 

I've just cancelled my copy of Liber Astartes. Game will be a hard push on my group now and I have work and other things to do with my life. Like posting here.

 

Sure I'm just one person and his friends, but if that's replicated up and down the country...

See this is what I mean. What is stopping you and your friends from continuing to play 2nd? Or explore some of the other rulesets out there that you can use your models for? 
 

You are far from the first to have posted “my and my friends” “my friend group” etc etc. 

 

Seems like complaining about the state of things have become the primary hobby for many, instead of finding a solution to the issues. 

[Urauloth]

I actually really like a lot of the core rules changes, and I think there'd be a lot more positive buzz about them if they weren't overshadowed by the Liber problem, which is understandably a pretty big deal for anyone whose army doesn't work in this edition.

 

I do wonder why you can make a disordered charge out of a Rhino and not a drop pod, though. That's... hard to imagine, if you look at a Rhino and then look at a drop pod, right?
If it's purely for game balance, I'm not sure I see that either, since there's the harsh new deep strike limit and the cut to charge distances. I don't know, I don't actually have the book, maybe I'm missing something.

[SvenIronhand]

I bought the rulebook and Liber Astartes, not the starter box. My buy-in was far less than expected at the beginning of the leaks/reveals, but at least I saved money? I guess I can buy MOTU Origins figures for my Kowloon Walled City of a action figure shelf or other minis with that money, lol.

[roryokane]

I’ve never played a game of HH, but devour the rules and fluff from the books (ditto Legions Imperialis). I’m angry because the game I recognised as being like what I used to play (3rd-5th/6th 40K) with my friends is being massacred like the Loyalists at the Dropsite. I was going to buy all the big box and all five libers and the journal tactica. Now I’m prolly just gonna buy one box of Mk II just to have some Mk II marines, because I like the miniatures (more than the Mk III in fact). I can’t remember ever feeling this disappointed at GW. Even the Primaris nonsense left less of a bad taste in my mouth.

[Mandragola]

I won’t be sticking with 2nd. I genuinely think 3rd is a better game that will be more fun to play. It’s annoying for existing armies but new ones will be fine.

 

Saturnine is about 1600-2000 points. If you buy it then you virtually have a whole new army. I could easily make 3k of sons of Horus from saturnine and my current pile of opportunity. So I guess you could argue that it doesn’t matter what happened to my Raven Guard. I could just box them up or sell them. 
 

Thinking about it, a reasonably well-painted Raven guard seeker squad is probably worth a bit of cash today. Hmm. 

[Captain Idaho]

26 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

See this is what I mean. What is stopping you and your friends from continuing to play 2nd? Or explore some of the other rulesets out there that you can use your models for? 

 

Because we work and have families to raise.

 

Dead games (I include editions in this) struggle with a draw because of many reasons we can probably create an Amicus topic about (yeah I'll get cracking).

 

In short - ain't nobody got time for that.

[Mogger351]

18 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Because we work and have families to raise.

 

Dead games (I include editions in this) struggle with a draw because of many reasons we can probably create an Amicus topic about (yeah I'll get cracking).

 

In short - ain't nobody got time for that.

I'm sorry but I still don't follow. I have a 5 year old and a job so I get it to some degree. But if you're familiar with 2nd ed, your friends want to keep paying it and so do you then there's 0 financial investment, nothing to learn and no impact to your current schedule.