Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Anvilarium]

2 hours ago, Pearson73 said:

Mechanicum look to be in a decent place, though I do feel that Thallax may be completely ridiculous given that they've nearly halved in points. A very mixed bag overall, really solid in parts and just riduculously poor in others.

Yes, Thallax look to be crazy good this edition. 315pts for 9 x Deep-Striking Thallax, all armed with Multi-Meltas, they're going to ruin a lot of tanks & Dreadnoughts!

Also Scyllax: WS5 & BS5. They're a retinue unit but no longer have the Guardian Protocols.

Edited Sunday at 11:12 AM by Anvilarium

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

Here is a battle report of HH 3.0:

 

[Nephaston]

4 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

Here is a battle report of HH 3.0:

 

Seems they forgot to finish building that belt buckle for the praetor.

[MARK0SIAN]

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

I won’t be sticking with 2nd. I genuinely think 3rd is a better game that will be more fun to play. It’s annoying for existing armies but new ones will be fine.

 

Saturnine is about 1600-2000 points. If you buy it then you virtually have a whole new army. I could easily make 3k of sons of Horus from saturnine and my current pile of opportunity. So I guess you could argue that it doesn’t matter what happened to my Raven Guard. I could just box them up or sell them. 
 

Thinking about it, a reasonably well-painted Raven guard seeker squad is probably worth a bit of cash today. Hmm. 

Obviously I haven’t played it yet but I’m willing to take your word for it that 3.0 is a better game. The problem is that getting to the point of playing that game is now gated behind 2 things that are worse this edition, namely the army rules and the absurd new list building system. If you’ve got to jump over two really annoying hurdles just to get to the point of playing a game then the game itself had better be amazing. Now you say it’s better but there’s nothing I’ve seen in the previews/leaks that make me think it’s going to be that big of an improvement on 2.0.

 

The other aspect you mentioned, that you can just build a new army also isn’t particularly reassuring. If they can be this cavalier and uncaring about the models we have now, then what’s to stop them doing the same again in 3 years when the next edition drops? If people were using the new kits, a plastic veteran squad of mkiii marines with power weapons would be a maximum of about 2 years old (less if the person building it had waited for the weapon sprue) and they’ve just completely squatted it. This kind of future proofing your models was a concern for 40k but was never really an issue for 30k, now it’s become one.

Edited Sunday at 11:59 AM by MARK0SIAN

[Marshal Rohr]

56 minutes ago, Anvilarium said:

Yes, Thallax look to be crazy good this edition. 315pts for 9 x Deep-Striking Thallax, all armed with Multi-Meltas, they're going to ruin a lot of tanks & Dreadnoughts!

Also Scyllax: WS5 & BS5. They're a retinue unit but no longer have the Guardian Protocols.

The mech and solar rules being so good is the only thing keeping me sane. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

It's possible to know where I can see some pics from Liber Hereticus,about SoH? Please...

[Marshal Rohr]

6 minutes ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

It's possible to know where I can see some pics from Liber Hereticus,about SoH? Please...

Channel of Four. The whole hereticus book is there. 

[jaxom]

9 hours ago, brother_b said:

I don’t know much about it I thought it was like older school 40K. Guess not.

The appeal was it is miniature-agnostic and had enough customization options to let people use whatever was in their collection as 8th to 10th editions trimmed those options. Rules-wise it’s more similar to 8th edition.

Edited Sunday at 12:37 PM by jaxom

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

20 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Channel of Four. The whole hereticus book is there. 

Sorry, where is that?

[Marshal Rohr]

12 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I like how goonhammer frames every change as a positive in their what changed article. 

 

Like, some are genuine positives; the wound allocation system of 2nd was the worst ever and I'm glad it's gone. Fewer reactions is great too.

 

But everything is "this changed, and that's good because people were tired of measuring rapid fire" or "it's good that gamey-aspects like being locked to combat or being run down if you didn't manage to run away from combat are gone, meanwhile vehicles are damaged in a very game-ified way and that's good!". 

Their Protection team deleted my reply, but yes, they are very excited everyone else got screwed so that they could play something closer to 40K. 

[01RTB01]

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

. It’s annoying for existing armies but new ones will be fine.

 

Saturnine is about 1600-2000 points. If you buy it then you virtually have a whole new army. I could easily make 3k of sons of Horus from saturnine and my current pile of opportunity. So I guess you could argue that it doesn’t matter what happened to my Raven Guard. I could just box them up or sell them. 
 

 

I'm sorry but this is not an ok take. At all.

 

Saturnine could be 4000 points of models but it doesn't justify invalidating people's collections. It doesn't justify the U-turn from customisation is good to the toxic relationship version which is some customisation is ok, oh no... not THAT customisation.

 

Also if everyone buys saturnine as the core of their force, what a dull world we inhabit whereby everyone is running the same stuff. Wouldn't it be nice to see people being able to, I don't know, use what they've spent the last 3-10 years building, modelling and painting?

 

Heresy was aimed at the "Old Guard", taking a 'brand new customers'', 'funnel' approach is deplorable and simply waving away with "new armies will be ok" is an utterly horrific point of view.

 

I've no intention of starting a new army. I'm very happy with the sizeable army I've collected. I don't have any interest in playing any other legion that the Third. I've zero interest in playing auxilia or mechanicum either.

[OttoVonAwesome]

So is everyone like ignoring the fact there is gonna be a legacies pdf? 

[Marshal Rohr]

5 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

I'm sorry but this is not an ok take. At all.

 

Saturnine could be 4000 points of models but it doesn't justify invalidating people's collections. It doesn't justify the U-turn from customisation is good to the toxic relationship version which is some customisation is ok, oh no... not THAT customisation.

 

Also if everyone buys saturnine as the core of their force, what a dull world we inhabit whereby everyone is running the same stuff. Wouldn't it be nice to see people being able to, I don't know, use what they've spent the last 3-10 years building, modelling and painting?

 

Heresy was aimed at the "Old Guard", taking a 'brand new customers'', 'funnel' approach is deplorable and simply waving away with "new armies will be ok" is an utterly horrific point of view.

 

I've no intention of starting a new army. I'm very happy with the sizeable army I've collected. I don't have any interest in playing any other legion that the Third. I've zero interest in playing auxilia or mechanicum either.

Don’t bother, they’re in damage control mode. The snice one is banning everyone on the Heresy discord pointing out “just clip off the weapons” in their video is patronizing trash. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Mandragola said:

I won’t be sticking with 2nd. I genuinely think 3rd is a better game that will be more fun to play. It’s annoying for existing armies but new ones will be fine.

 

Saturnine is about 1600-2000 points. If you buy it then you virtually have a whole new army. I could easily make 3k of sons of Horus from saturnine and my current pile of opportunity. So I guess you could argue that it doesn’t matter what happened to my Raven Guard. I could just box them up or sell them. 
 

Thinking about it, a reasonably well-painted Raven guard seeker squad is probably worth a bit of cash today. Hmm. 

 

Well....2nd as a game system involving two players was really out of whack. You could create units in list building that did absolutely nothing but died to return fire; meanwhile you also had units that needed extremely specific answers or else they'd run rampant. It received cursory support to fix these imbalances, leaving it to players to heavily self police to come to an equitable experience. I would hope the next version of the game is a better two player game.

 

But...simply being better isn't the end all be all, especially if the fixes come from a path a lot of people were actively avoiding. If people wanted units moving at full speed shooting all their guns, vehicles with a wound track instead of a damage chart, damage stat, uncustomizable units straight from the box, completely open and unstructured army building, removal of twinlinked, removal of extra attacks on the charge, removal of extra melee weapons adding more attacks, leaving combat with little downside, and all the rest....then they'd be playing modern 40k. It was a throwback to the 3rd edition style of 40k, game wise and how it encouraged building a collection, and that was a big draw.

 

People wanted more reasons to make zany custom load outs and try them on the table; they wanted the balance issues in 2nd (and 1st) smoothed out so the dominant things maybe weren't so dominant (and the garbage in 2nd being able to do things). They absolutely did not want to be told "that thing you liked doing and we encouraged from 3rd all the way up to 2025 in heresy? Lol, too bad." The backlash all the reviewers are getting is because they're not really acknowledging that original appeal and loss, how fundamental it was, how the shift towards modern 40kisms feel like a betrayal, how the invalidation of units (often ones encouraged in the last 3 years) definitely is a betrayal, etc...Theres a "ya it sucks for us too, back to unrelenting positivity and how everything that changed was actually unfun to start with". 

 

So ya, 3rd is a better game system than 2nd. Who cares though; 10th 40k is a better game system than 2nd. The real question is if 3rd is a better system than 1st, and it really doesn't feel that way. 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

So is everyone like ignoring the fact there is gonna be a legacies pdf? 

 

Listen, I've read the script. Its the same one from 2nds launch. 

 

I will be more than happy to go on an apology tour if the magic legacies PDF restores all the options and enables people's collections to be played. It certainly didn't 3 years ago though.

[MARK0SIAN]

7 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

So is everyone like ignoring the fact there is gonna be a legacies pdf? 

I think people are putting a bit too much faith and hope in the legacies document. It may have some of the units that are missing in their entirety but I can’t see a situation where, for example, there’s a veteran squad in the liber who can only take ranged weapons, then a separate veteran squad in the pdf that lets them take ranged weapons and melee weapons. 
 

In short, it might give some whole units back but it won’t restore wargear choices. 

[phandaal]

15 hours ago, brother_b said:

They have One Page Rules for HH?

 

Yes, One Page Rules has community lists for every army in HH (and in OPR those are exactly as good as 'official' because they use the game's army builder tool).

 

It might be easier to get people to just keep playing 2.0 though... I get the feeling that HH is already a "swapped out of 40k" game for a lot of people. Asking for another swap after that might be too much.

[BitsHammer]

I'm going to put my tinfoil hat on here but I think part of 3.0 is that it feels like management in GW wants "new" rather than iterative updates. So every edition of their games big changes have to be made because they think by changing stuff they can make more money some how. 

 

I don't have an inside source mind you, I'm just always spending time thinking about game design and the things that drive the devs to do certain things. And honestly it feels like a dev teams are given constraints that they have to work with while trying to fix past issues in the game. And sure, it's not all management since it's the dev team who overcorrected on the power of the assault phase, and wrote legion traits that are gated behind too many dice rolls, but there is a definite stain of management getting too handsy with how the game is made.

 

I am not saying managers can't be creative people, but GW's always had to balance the business side against the game side and it feels like the shift is heavier on the business side now.

[Mogger351]

40 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

I'm sorry but this is not an ok take. At all.

 

Saturnine could be 4000 points of models but it doesn't justify invalidating people's collections. It doesn't justify the U-turn from customisation is good to the toxic relationship version which is some customisation is ok, oh no... not THAT customisation.

 

Also if everyone buys saturnine as the core of their force, what a dull world we inhabit whereby everyone is running the same stuff. Wouldn't it be nice to see people being able to, I don't know, use what they've spent the last 3-10 years building, modelling and painting?

 

Heresy was aimed at the "Old Guard", taking a 'brand new customers'', 'funnel' approach is deplorable and simply waving away with "new armies will be ok" is an utterly horrific point of view.

 

I've no intention of starting a new army. I'm very happy with the sizeable army I've collected. I don't have any interest in playing any other legion that the Third. I've zero interest in playing auxilia or mechanicum either.

Im sure someone will take this as a defense, which it isn't meant as, more of a highlighting of a rationale:

 

You point out it's aimed at the old guard and as an example you are happy with your army an not wanting to buy or start another. So you basically aren't going to make them any money, so by extension I'd argue your not their target customer any more and stopped being a while ago.

 

If the average HH enjoyer is older with a complete army with little intent to keep buying, they might as well pivot to making it aimed at a new audience.

 

I'm not saying that applies to anyone and certainly not that it's right, but as a corporate entity first, they won't bother with something that makes no money, so your entire position is telling GW to cut you off.

Edited Sunday at 02:18 PM by Mogger351

[Armchair Warlord]

 

 

Going off of what units can't take any more..... As an initial impression. HH 3.0 looks like they've destroyed a lot of Alan Bligh's brilliant creativity he put into HH 1.0.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Northern Walker]

33 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Don’t bother, they’re in damage control mode. The snice one is banning everyone on the Heresy discord pointing out “just clip off the weapons” in their video is patronizing trash. 

Influencers were a mistake.

[OttoVonAwesome]

4 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I think people are putting a bit too much faith and hope in the legacies document. It may have some of the units that are missing in their entirety but I can’t see a situation where, for example, there’s a veteran squad in the liber who can only take ranged weapons, then a separate veteran squad in the pdf that lets them take ranged weapons and melee weapons. 
 

In short, it might give some whole units back but it won’t restore wargear choices. 

Destroyers for sure. Thank god too cuase I literally just brought them into the new scale and style in Blender and man do they look good. I dunno I geuss I just don't care as much. Super easy for me to be stoked about the new edition since I have a 3-D printer (Best investment ever) and design my own marines now. Wait till you all see my Sanguinary guard and Sons of Horus. 

 

Another thing I struggled with was how there was so many wargear options in alot of cases you'd take a unit and upgrade it to being a less effecient crappier terminator squad. When I look at these new rules I'm like oh neat so now there's a point to taking this squad or that squad and also I'm no stranger to having to make changes to my armies since I have been around in the hobby since 2nd edition 40k. All this stuff is just part of how it goes. Kinda just my opinion though I tend to be overly positive.

 

The only thing bugging me really is not having the PDF's and army lists at hand right now so I can get to work.

[SvenIronhand]

35 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Don’t bother, they’re in damage control mode. The snice one is banning everyone on the Heresy discord pointing out “just clip off the weapons” in their video is patronizing trash. 

Pretty sure that's not the whole story, given how these things usually go. 

[Armchair Warlord]

42 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

So is everyone like ignoring the fact there is gonna be a legacies pdf? 

I doubt one PDF is going to give back 18 legions thei unique flavours and the opportunity to build narrative armies.

[01RTB01]

9 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Im sure someone will take this as a defense, which it isn't meant as, more of a highlighting of a rationale:

 

You point out it's aimed at the old guard and as an example you are happy with your army an not wanting to buy or start another. So you basically aren't going to make them any money, so by extension I'd argue your not their target customer any more and stopped being a while ago.

 

If the average HH enjoyer is older with a complete army with little intent to keep buying, they might as well pivot to making it aimed at a new audience.

 

I'm not saying that applies to anyone and certainly not that it's right, but as a corporate entity first, they won't bother with something that makes no money, so your entire position is telling GW to cut you off.

 

I'm happy with my army but I was going to buy saturnine. As I've said elsewhere, I want the saturnine stuff for expanding my Loyalists. I wanted mkii assault marines as vets, I wanted a glaive/ falchion. I've been wanting mkiii breachers since day 1. Plastic speeders, upscaled tartaros and mkiv, I'd be all over. 

 

Despite the army being what it is, I would have continued expanding and buying. As it is, I'll give the new edition a go with what I have - I've friends that have bought the new rulebook, and I'll go from there. 

 

I understand GW need to keep selling, but they didn't have the kneecap what we already had. Ironically by doing so, I'm far less encouraged to spend than what I was. The daft thing is, if everyone stopped buying heresy GW would just kill it, there wouldn't be an internal reflection that it was 'them'.