Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[crimsondave]

1 hour ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

It’s quite a contest. The apothecaries are competing with the IF reaction where they shoot themselves. 

While that is hilarious, I have to wonder how a multi billion dollar company who makes absolutely top notch models can be so consistently bad at books.  Whoever was in charge of getting that book out just skipped the editor apparently.

[Mandragola]

2 hours ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Out of curiosity, what were you taking in your RG army that is so illegal now? It seems like even if you had a bunch of mor deythan with now unusable weapons, you could just use them as seekers or veterans? Aside from tartaros with fists, of course (which is straight up whack sauce).

I am not saying your reaction is invalid (if you don’t like the new rules, you don’t like them), I’m just curious how that particular army could be so far gone. 

I actually never got round to combi-volkite Mor Deythan, though I’ve got some with combi-plasma left from 1st. I have a command squad that I bought resin bolters for, so the could hold them in one hand and have power weapons in the other. I probably never fired those bolters as I didn’t want to trigger return fire and now the unit doesn’t have them if they have melee weapons. 
 

This is fine for me to be honest. It’s the easiest possible fix to swap weapons around. The fact I can’t outflank the unit any more, so I probably won’t actually take them, means there’s no rush to do that. 

1 hour ago, Brofist said:

Have y'all feasted your eyes on the apothacary rules and how they work? I think those take the cake for the worst rules writing in this edition.

Yeah this one is a shocker. Different pieces of their rules are all over the place. Once you understand what they do you probably conclude that it’s not worth spending one of your limited reactions on a “medic!” Reaction. Then it’s safe to forget their ludicrously over-complicated rules again. 

1 hour ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

It’s quite a contest. The apothecaries are competing with the IF reaction where they shoot themselves. 

While hilarious, this is a one-word typo that’s easy to FAQ. Apothecaries are *meant* to be like that. 

1 hour ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Can I ask, more out of curiosity than anything else. From the games you guys have played, how often do the new tactical statuses come up? I’ve got a serious worry that my armies are going to spend a huge amount of their time pinned or suppressed or whatever because when GW adopts a new mechanic they tend to REALLY push it. They’re certainly really pushing it in the various articles. 
 

I’m interested to know if it’s actually going to be debilitating or just a bit of occasional flavour.

It varies depending on how much you play into it. Your typical bolter and lascannon fire doesn’t apply any statuses, except for running away as before. Actually that can be less serious than in previous editions as you can remove that status at the start of the turn with a nuncio vox - which will be an essential piece of equipment. 

 

Snipers are nasty for statuses. Shoot the nuncio box guy and pin the unit. Now it can’t move and can’t recover till its own end phase. That’s actually in time to score an objective, if only they’d been able to move onto one.

 

That doesn’t sound fun, which is another anti-RG argument for me. My legion detachment has two slots for recon squads and own seekers and mor deythan. A fluffy RG army with all that in could be no fun at all to play against. 
 

Something a bit surprising is that armourbane guns don’t apply statuses to vehicles, as they just do damage instead. AV14 vehicles didn’t tend to get statuses because S8 non-armourbane is a fairly rare weapon profile and one that is largely wasted on AV14 tanks. 

Edited Sunday at 11:50 PM by Mandragola

[Marshal Rohr]

What’s it say about the popularity of Solar Auxilia and Knights that the entire Hereticus, Mech, and Loyalist libers have leaked and not a single page has leaked from those. 

[BitsHammer]

Just now, Marshal Rohr said:

What’s it say about the popularity of Solar Auxilia and Knights that the entire Hereticus, Mech, and Loyalist libers have leaked and not a single page has leaked from those. 

Mechanicus got leaks with the Pardo watermarks.

[Indy Techwisp]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

What’s it say about the popularity of Solar Auxilia and Knights that the entire Hereticus, Mech, and Loyalist libers have leaked and not a single page has leaked from those. 

 

No-one wants to post screenshots with some guys slur filled manifesto watermarked on it

[OttoVonAwesome]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

So I might be misunderstanding things, but what is the point of Crimson Paladins?

 

Slow moving terminators that have at most one ranged weapon per squad, only basic power swords and a shield that only has any effect if you are hit by and exactly 2 damage weapon. At least under the old rules they could upgrade the sword and the shield was actually useful in melee (not to mention being able to take smaller squads to actually benefit from the being outnumbered rule....

Tbh I never saw the point of any of the basic BA special units in 2.0. I used Ophanim instead of Dawnguard, Assualt Destroyers instead of Angel's Tears, etc. The Crimson Paladins I almost went for cuase they looked like a good tar pit. Are they much worse now?

[Marshal Rohr]

42 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

No-one wants to post screenshots with some guys slur filled manifesto watermarked on it

There was no leak of Solar or Knights, with the watermarks or not. 

Edited Monday at 01:00 AM by Marshal Rohr

[Mike8404]

5 hours ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

I shot off an email as well. 14 of my armies aren’t viable without major rework, and without RoW they’ll never work the same way again. Slapping in a couple centurions isn’t fixing anything. Every single army has models that are no longer valid. I included pictures so they don’t think I’m blowing smoke.

You'll have to let us know what the response is!  I'm pretty sure they'll start ignoring them like they did last time. 

 

Also, a little off topic, but as a former Hospital Corpsman, it's pretty cool to see another Son of Dorn who has ties to the Marine Corps.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

Yep. I’m a retired Phrog pilot.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Tbh I never saw the point of any of the basic BA special units in 2.0. I used Ophanim instead of Dawnguard

 

But dawn breakers were an objectively better unit lol

Edited Monday at 02:34 AM by SkimaskMohawk

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

8 hours ago, Antarius said:

Having mulled things over a bit more, I'm in "I might get the box and sell off the gun platform and the rulebook, possibly the Saturnine dread"-territory.

It seems to me that every time a new edition of a game rolls around, there's an initial burst of enthusiam, then a wave "oh no, this is going to suck, isn't it?" and then it sort of levels out either right before or after release. This time it really does feel different in certain areas though. I think what's bugging not just me, but the majority of people talking about this is:
 

- The (admittedly both nebulous and subjective) feeling that the game is moving away from customisation and the "old school" feel that seems to be a draw for most of the existing fanbase. This one is probably pretty normal every time there's a new edition, to be honest, but it might ring more true this time than it usually does

 

- Core Rules changes; this one I pretty much have at "normal levels of griping" but it is very much compounded by the next point

 

- The Libers seem to be met with almost universal disdain, not just because of the changes and omissions, but because they really do seem to be full of oversights and mistakes to a degree that - outside of internet hyperbole - isn't anywhere near normal for GW

 

- The journals, while most people seemed okay to enthusiastic about the idea, seem to be conceived in a much more cynical way than is the case for ToW equivalents; these seem to be paywalls to actually playing your army as it is supposed to be, rather than fun and interesting bonus stuff and lore. Add to this that there are 18 Legions, so you'll have to potentially wait for quite some time to have the opportunity to pay for having your army "reinstated" and you have a bit of a  show, especially when combined with the next point
 

- The edition churn is what people generally came to Horus Heresy to avoid and it just seems like you're going to "have" to buy several pounds of books, just to chuck them in the bin in 30-35 months (depending on when the "new edition coming out soon"-slump hits your gaming group), especially if you might not get "your" journal before half that time is up (that's assuming a journal per legion and a journal a month, which of course might not be accurate but it seems fair to assume that it's going to be a steady drip over the next 2-2,5 years) and it just feels really unsustainable, from pretty much any point of view.
 

So, in conclusion, it does seem like there's more negativity then usual and it also seems like there's more (or at least, less subjective) of a basis for it this time around 

Let's imagine for a moment that they'll do Legion journals in numerical order (which they won't), and that the time between each journal, from draft to having printed copies to disseminate across the stores around the world - it's a 3-4 month wait time. Oh, but corporate will probably want to bundle each journal release with an accompanying plastic model release, maybe either a generic unit or a Legion-specific release. 

So, to continue this imaginary situation: the first journal (after the dropsite one) drops in 4 months time.  That's December, or so. Dark Angels. April 2026 would be Emperors' Children. August 2026 would be Iron Warriors. Late December/January 2027 would be White Scars.

The White Scars journal will be the one to reintroduce mounted or bike/jetbike options for characters again. That would make the most sense, yeah? So, we'd wait a year and a half to be able to do mounted characters again, for the paid DLC, to open up these options again. Doesn't feel good, does it?

Now imagine that the development time for all this is longer than my scenario proposes it to be. Now also consider that they probably WON'T be in numerical order. We might see them condensed to 2 or 3 Legions per journal, like :cuss:tier versions of Books 1, Book 2, Book 3, etc... 

 

The people who are saying that things aren't bad and that to simply wait for a journal to 'fix' this issue, the above is something to consider... 


*to continue the analogy, we would get access to jump packs on more consuls/hq's in late 2027 or early 2028, which is when the Blood Angels (journal number 9) would drop. Based on the = 1 Journal=//=every 4 months with accompanying plastic release.

[Marshal Rohr]

They won’t be doing Legion specific books for a while. It’ll be campaign stuff for the next few years. 

[Rusted Boltgun]

20 minutes ago, Hungry Nostraman Lizard said:

*to continue the analogy, we would get access to jump packs on more consuls/hq's in late 2027 or early 2028, which is when the Blood Angels (journal number 9) would drop. Based on the = 1 Journal=//=every 4 months with accompanying plastic release.

 

To continue this, the last journal would land six months before the implementation of 4.0?

 

I can't see why they would strip units / war gear, only to drip feed them back in again. Why would anyone have thought that was a good idea?

[Gorgoff]

1 hour ago, Hungry Nostraman Lizard said:

Let's imagine for a moment that they'll do Legion journals in numerical order (which they won't), and that the time between each journal, from draft to having printed copies to disseminate across the stores around the world - it's a 3-4 month wait time. Oh, but corporate will probably want to bundle each journal release with an accompanying plastic model release, maybe either a generic unit or a Legion-specific release. 

So, to continue this imaginary situation: the first journal (after the dropsite one) drops in 4 months time.  That's December, or so. Dark Angels. April 2026 would be Emperors' Children. August 2026 would be Iron Warriors. Late December/January 2027 would be White Scars.

The White Scars journal will be the one to reintroduce mounted or bike/jetbike options for characters again. That would make the most sense, yeah? So, we'd wait a year and a half to be able to do mounted characters again, for the paid DLC, to open up these options again. Doesn't feel good, does it?

Now imagine that the development time for all this is longer than my scenario proposes it to be. Now also consider that they probably WON'T be in numerical order. We might see them condensed to 2 or 3 Legions per journal, like :cuss:tier versions of Books 1, Book 2, Book 3, etc... 

 

The people who are saying that things aren't bad and that to simply wait for a journal to 'fix' this issue, the above is something to consider... 


*to continue the analogy, we would get access to jump packs on more consuls/hq's in late 2027 or early 2028, which is when the Blood Angels (journal number 9) would drop. Based on the = 1 Journal=//=every 4 months with accompanying plastic release.

And in 2028 we already get the 4th edition and the circle starts all over again. Just like AOS does and just like 40k does. 

HH is on the same page now that GW made it a main game meaning they squeeze every little coin out of the customers pocket. 

Horray.

 

[Antarius]

My guess - and this is no more than a guess, based on the initial journal, I hasten to add - is that they won't do the journals quite like ToW where they're actually named after an army and only include stuff for that army. I think it'll be a journal with a couple of scenarios and one or two "something for everybody"-types of unit/wargear options, as well as something specific for 2-3 legions that are tied in to the events detailed in the journal. My concern is that the legion-specific stuff will essentially be the stuff that's missing (in the sense that it used to be there in previous editions) from the legion rules at present, so people will be "forced" (I use the term loosely) to buy the journals if they want their legion rules to be "complete" again.

Like I said, it's just a guess, but it seems reasonable given how the campaign books in 2.0 worked, the title of the first journal and how a bunch of legion-specific stuff seems to be missing. Personally, I'm not crazy about the "include something for everybody" part*, although it does make sense from a business perspective and most people seemed to like it in 2.0, but it's the legion-specific part that feels cynical and like you're going to buy an incomplete product if you purchase the core book and the libers.

 

 

*I'm not sure my reasons are particularly relevant to the topic, so I'll just leave them out for now.

[Marshal Loss]

Just now, Antarius said:

My guess - and this is no more than a guess, based on the initial journal, I hasten to add - is that they won't do the journals quite like ToW where they're actually named after an army and only include stuff for that army. 

 

They have said that they will (eventually):

 

And lastly, we will be looking at the many different factions active during the Horus Heresy. Individual Legions and other factions will eventually receive their own journals, providing each with an expanded army list and gaming options.

[Antarius]

36 minutes ago, Marshal Loss said:

 

They have said that they will (eventually):

 

 

 

Good catch! Although that's arguably much worse than I expected 

I know we probably shouldn't be surprised, exactly. Still, this feels much worse than how they handle the other main games, as it seems like they've actively stripped out stuff from the armies to (supposedly) add them back in later.

In the same vein, I know the 3-year cycle is pretty much a given at this point, and I also know people have predicted the falling of the sky and the imminent collapse of GW for ages, but this just feels much more unsustainable than, well, anything I've seen from them for the past 32 years.

[Craig]

If any 3d sculptors were to make a hazard stripe shoulder pad stencil for these I would be very tempted to pick up the box as an Iron Warriors force to support my 40k chaos knights. Some really nice models here but painting another infantry heavy army is a commitment.

[Xenith]

7 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

No-one wants to post screenshots with some guys slur filled manifesto watermarked on it

 

Nor should they, as it would violate B&C rules and be taken down 

[Aarik]

2 hours ago, Marshal Loss said:

And lastly, we will be looking at the many different factions active during the Horus Heresy. Individual Legions and other factions will eventually receive their own journals, providing each with an expanded army list and gaming options.

Maybe I’m being paranoid, but this doesn’t say ALL individual legions (or all factions) will get journals. And the “each” could mean just the specific individual legions and factions that are actually included. 

[sarabando]

The entire rule book has made its way into my hands and honestly its worse. 

Theres barely any new art, every rule is written in the most confusing way possible. 

Theres bit that make no sense like Krak grenades and meltabombs dont affect dreads. 

The medic rules are all over the place. 

 

Honestly really doesnt feel like a lot of effort was put into it and some of the text stinks of AI writing. 

[Marshal Loss]

51 minutes ago, sarabando said:

Theres barely any new art

 

Aw. Not many new colour plates?

 

Had hoped that the absence of 'man reads book' videos would mean I'd get a pleasant surprise with some colour plates 

[Joe]

They've literally replaced all of the legion colour plates with the new art style in the core rulebook - Mark II where it makes sense, the new Mark V plate, etc. Can't speak for the Liber's as I've not had an opportunity to read those yet.

 

As far as reading the rules go - this one is honestly going to be incredibly subjective. Our group has had no issues parsing the way the rules work, however I've seen other people struggle to understand the wording. As always, if you understand the rules I'd recommend you try to help others out - and vice versa, if you yourself don't understand x or y ask for some help. That sense of community spirit is what ties the Heresy community together and makes it a welcoming place to be.

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, sarabando said:

The entire rule book has made its way into my hands and honestly its worse. 

Theres barely any new art, every rule is written in the most confusing way possible. 

Theres bit that make no sense like Krak grenades and meltabombs dont affect dreads. 

The medic rules are all over the place. 

 

Honestly really doesnt feel like a lot of effort was put into it and some of the text stinks of AI writing. 

 

Do we have any examples of AI speel? Because I suspect, with the lack of proof reading and way it's been mishandled with removal of some options and addition of others, that GW HAS used AI for proof reading or something...

 

Just all seem so incompetent... it doesn't feel like it could be a new edition of anything.

 

I blame Skynet.

[sarabando]

44 minutes ago, Marshal Loss said:

 

Aw. Not many new colour plates?

 

Had hoped that the absence of 'man reads book' videos would mean I'd get a pleasant surprise with some colour plates 

theres colours of all the armour marks bar mk1. but the details are on par if a little worse than 2.0s book, looks like mk4 and 5 are pretty normal in style no massive changes like mk3 or 2.  No army shots we havent seen already, the IF army shot shows templars made from mk3 kits not the resin ones. etc