Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Redcomet]

7 minutes ago, Gree said:

So, wait, the Tartaros Terminators not having fists wasn't a typo? That was intentional?

Most likely means a new kit is arriving soon, without powerfists in it

[Mogger351]

12 minutes ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

It’s just more gaslighting from a truly untrustworthy company that has no regard for their customers. There is a bright side though, with the money I’m saving by not buying this hot garbage I can get a nice 3D printer.

... to keep playing the game created by the untrustworthy company?

42 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

So they've released something within 4 days of most of those articles going up and that's not a quick enough reaction time for you?

So transparency at a corporate level is a big thing to me, it wouldn't have been hard for them to say on the pre-order day in the article "p.s. we know it appears some options are limited, the Legacies PDF coming Monday will address this".

Why is that a harder concept than not letting people sit in outrage for nearly 5 days?

[Urauloth]

6 minutes ago, Gree said:

So, wait, the Tartaros Terminators not having fists wasn't a typo? That was intentional?

New kit imminent, I'm guessing.

 

Anyway, the legacies confirmation is great news. Glad to hear it's all "official" and there isn't a two-tier system like the legends pdfs in other GW games. Surprised how much is on that list - didn't think Indomitus armour would make it. I'm sure the survival of the Castraferrum will make a lot of people happy, boxnauts have a big cult following.

[MARK0SIAN]

56 minutes ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

They have misrepresented, or outright lied about the release since the beginning. The legacies are as big as the Libers now that they’ve been called out. White Scars all grav armies will still be unworkable as cavalry doesn’t have vanguard or line. Blood Angels Day of Revelation is dead because of the prohibition on number of units that can deep strike. I could go on, but what is the point.

They’re still not being honest with this article. Tartaros terminators are a current, in-production kit that has power fists in the box. They do not fit any of their justifications for them not being in the libers.

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

GW baffle me, why voluntarily piss people off for a week?

Probably took a week to see pre-order impact upstairs. 

11 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

They’re still not being honest with this article. Tartaros terminators are a current, in-production kit that has power fists in the box. They do not fit any of their justifications for them not being in the libers.

This means everything in the Liber has a kit in the works with the options in the book besides the characters and big planes and super-heavies. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

The idea of "Tartaros Terminator Siege Squad" because they can use power and chain fists or thunder hammers, specially as a completely separate type of squad is more than weird. It's nearly, stupid. 

Tartaros armor is the most advanced and equilibrated terminator model of all. As agile and fast as a power armor but with improved protection beyond the any power armor mark. If it's necessary to make a "Terminator Siege Squad" ,that must be the Cataphractii,right?

 

In the the other hand,why separate "Tactical" and "Assault"/ "Siege" some squads, as in the Codex era? Why such "Guillimanesque" specialised division in Great Crusade/ Heresy era?.

 

Those are some of the ideas, that make feel GW Studio made some terrible mistakes and omissions,and are trying to patching as they discovered how disgusted/angry/etc are most of the community,and realise the hook for new customers is not working as they expect.

They plan,idea,whatever just blowed up as soon the leaks started,and now they trying a damage control.

At least,that's my opinion and feelings about this.

[Doobles57]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

They didn't.  People leaked the books that should never have been seen before this Legends document.

It's not like GW said "here take a look at these books".  Some dude got really angry and started uploading them.

Kinda true, but they also sent them out to influencers and reviewers, many of whom have been raising exactly the same issues about missing units since their embargo lifted on Saturday. So they let people get pissed off for half a week I guess.

 

17 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

They’re still not being honest with this article. Tartaros terminators are a current, in-production kit that has power fists in the box. They do not fit any of their justifications for them not being in the libers.

 

Don't be shocked to see them alongside new volkite wielding Cataphractii in the preview show on Friday. Take the fact that they're in the Liber in this way as confirmation of a new kit coming.

 

 

 

How much this pdf differs from the one that existed in GW's hands 2 weeks ago we'll never know. I'm ok with this as it is - big book mirrors the current (and upcoming in some cases) model range available, pdf gives you everything else you can build yourself. That's fine. It really should have been communicated that way some time ago though to avoid this backlash.

 

Wargear for consuls being in this is great to see too. Also, Im really hoping the points and rules for the Baneblade/hammer/etc are even half decent as I'd love an excuse to get one for my Solar Aux. 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:01 PM by Doobles57

[Vassakov]

I mean, if on Friday they reveal new Tartaros and Cataphractii Terminators then by the time the books are actually in players hands, the new kits will be public knowledge.

 

Again, from a purely technical point of view we're not supposed to have seen detailed pages from the books yet. If all we had to go on was the reviews, then this would probably be an oddity but then on Friday BOOM new kits, and presumably a "Don't worry, the classic sculpts are now Siege Terminators in the Legacies file" and then... some degree of this might have been avoided.

 

Yeah, it's still odd that we've got two separate datasheets for basically the same unit, and Tartaros seems to be split whereas Cataphractii just got more options, but very little about this makes sense.

 

Oh, and in terms of "your armies will be playable" - it seems apparent now that that statement is overwhelmingly true, even if some bits might require some tweaking or some of the weapons might not perfectly translate to the new rules on some specialist squads.

 

Your armies being good, or playing the same way as they used to - well, that might not be the case. We still don't know exactly how it'll actually play in practice, but there are clearly some changes they've made around Deep Strike and Reserves that are fundamental changes. However, your models are still usable even if "I'm Deep Striking my entire army, good luck" is dead. 

[Fire Golem]

46 minutes ago, Xenith said:

It was always planned, they've said it will be released since saturnine was announced.

I wouldn’t bother, people have convinced themselves they wrote the whole PDF in the last 4 days despite them always saying it was coming and the fact that last edition also had a hefty Legacies pdf. At the most, I think they’ve maybe added back wargear options. Any units I’m betting were always gonna be here. 

[Doghouse]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

They didn't.  People leaked the books that should never have been seen before this Legends document.

It's not like GW said "here take a look at these books".  Some dude got really angry and started uploading them.

 

I agree and think this is definitely the case. Had the leaks not happened then the Legacy drop would been on time for release and the backlash would have been significantly smaller.

 

I think there would still be a few people saying that it's legacy so not supported or they're not official regardless of what GW said but no where near as much as it has been. I don't think the players were wrong in their reaction though because they were acting on the only information they had at the time which looked dire. 

 

This is why I really am not a fan of leaks or spreading them.

[MoriyaSchism]

This Legacy PDF list is looking a bit anemic. Doesn't seem consistent for each faction.

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:10 PM by MoriyaSchism

[MARK0SIAN]

14 minutes ago, Doobles57 said:

 

 

Don't be shocked to see them alongside new volkite wielding Cataphractii in the preview show on Friday. Take the fact that they're in the Liber in this way as confirmation of a new kit coming.

 

 

Oh yeah, I get what the real reason is that they’re not in the liber. My point is just that they’re not being honest about why they aren’t in it.

Edited Wednesday at 04:12 PM by MARK0SIAN

[Captain Idaho]

2 hours ago, apologist said:

Although now I read a bit more closely... is the implication actually that it is intentional that Tartaros won't have power fists except through this PDF?

 

I believe it's reactionary. They've not realised the harm they've caused and are trying to fix their mistakes.

 

The Legions specific rules are pretty shocking mind. That's what's holding me from buying in at present, I've even refunded my Liber purchases because of it.

 

***

 

Guys, you don't need to pay for Centurions to get more detachments. You need to fill in command slots, which includes Optae. A 50pts sergeant.

 

From the leaks I've seen anyway? Can someone confirm?

Edited Wednesday at 04:18 PM by Captain Idaho

[Irate Khornate]

8 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

I believe it's reactionary. They've not realised the harm they've caused and are trying to fix their mistakes.

 

The Legions specific rules are pretty shocking mind. That's what's holding me from buying in at present, I've even refunded my Liber purchases because of it.

 

***

 

Guys, you don't need to pay for Centurions to get more detachments. You need to fill in command slots, which includes Optae. A 50pts sergeant.

 

From the leaks I've seen anyway? Can someone confirm?

Centurions are more slot efficient since they unlock two slots and I recall them being 80 points so 40 points per detachment versus 50

[Jings]

Confirmation of return of some options is pleasant news, but it's going to be a wait and see to see the full extent of the damage. Didn't see Biker command squads, which makes me worry for my Scars but we'll see. 

 

The article itself is for sure damage control, but I think a few of us have been crossing our fingers for the Legacies PDF sorting things out. Proof will be in the pudding. Splitting some units does seem very daft though all in all. If they return Power Weapons and Chainswords to Veteran squads, it might actually wind up allow my Dark Angel plans to become more interesting, albeit with a bit of shaking things up here and there (and many more Centurions). 

[Cerbero666]

1 hour ago, bloodhound23 said:

99% of kitbashes are 95% GW models, often producing way fewer models than would would expect for the total cost of the bits involved. I just really don’t understand the histrionics that lead to writing the rules around what’s available in a single given box. People are going to buy extra boxes to make the one box a little different. How is that not a huge financial win? They should be encouraging this frankly wasteful behavior on our parts (lol), as we are plastic-addicted enough to spend $100 to make 5 dudes. 
 

I feel like it doesn’t do anything for new players to eliminate this sort of incentive for kitbashers.

 

THIS.

 

And there's the topic on new units with rules being given miniatures over time. I guess all of us (or most of us at the very least) are on 30K for things more let say 'esoteric' that what we could find on 40K. We are not here for unit upon unit of rank and file astartes with common weapons. We want things like phosphex and rad grenades (therefore Destroyers), eerie automata, heat-ray weapons, alchem-munitions, epic characters with unique appearances or lore (Kyr Vhalen's half-melted face, Autek Mor sinister background, etc), and unique units that represent the symbolism and ideosyncracy of their legions (Atramentar, Huscarls, Morlocks, Excindio...). Why abandon all those possible money sources leaving them on a Legacy pdf or worse, back to the void, and removing part of what makes the Horus Heresy so unique and alluring? 

 

Dude, I misss Alan Bligh. IMO he didn't care if a unit or character was going to have a proper unit, he just created the lore and rules and let his imagination fly with it because it was fitting to the setting. It could pass from just rules with no miniatures to miniatures for those rules, but the point was expanding the lore and setting.

Edited Wednesday at 04:35 PM by Cerbero666

[Elzender]

Happy to see the upcoming legacies pdf seems to cover a lot of gaps the liber leaks were revealing, let's hope it means most armies of our fellow fraters (and all hobbyists) are still playable without major issues.

 

I have not personally seen the new Breachers unit entry for 3.0, but from what I read I understood the special weapons were heavily restricted or completely gone. I assume the Veteran Breacher Squad will include the old options, with the price of them no longer being troops but likely Army Vanguard as other veteran units. If that is the case, it is a pity as the only Breacher unit I currently have built will no longer be a troops option, and it will require either a High Command unit or a Prime Slot. I guess when I eventually get around to build the other units, I will need to magnetize the special weapons or avoid them if I want a unit as troops.

 

Could any kind Frater let me know if my rambling makes sense?

[Fire Golem]

7 minutes ago, Jings said:

Confirmation of return of some options is pleasant news, but it's going to be a wait and see to see the full extent of the damage. Didn't see Biker command squads, which makes me worry for my Scars but we'll see. 

 

The article itself is for sure damage control, but I think a few of us have been crossing our fingers for the Legacies PDF sorting things out. Proof will be in the pudding. Splitting some units does seem very daft though all in all. If they return Power Weapons and Chainswords to Veteran squads, it might actually wind up allow my Dark Angel plans to become more interesting, albeit with a bit of shaking things up here and there (and many more Centurions). 

 

[1ncarnadine]

It's good to see that Death Guard & some other legions seem to be getting some of their armoury back in Legacies. Though I think it's weird that Blood Angels are missing a similar entry. They could have at least done an Angels Tears Fire Support Squad with assault cannons in a support slot or something.

 

Also, while I'm on the topic of chem flamers... I noticed in the leaks that the Grave Wardens Heavy Alchem Flamer doesn't cause Panic like normal flamers. The weapons that have been described as either alchemical emerald fire or aerosolized gouts of deadly microbial and biochemical solutions? The latter I'm imagining as being like tear gas sprayers but instead of just painful spicy air, your target's flesh melts off. That's not causing Panic!? Either of those are somehow less terrifying than your average flamer? Come on, SG team. Hopefully that gets changed.

[Northern Walker]

Damage control and deflection. They're trying to put a lid on things for now, and then invalidate it all later. They say the game is designed for narrative, but actions speak far louder than words.

[Jings]

8 minutes ago, Fire Golem said:

 

 

Fantastic news. Fingers crossed all the options remain!

[jaxom]

12 minutes ago, Northern Walker said:

They say the game is designed for narrative, but actions speak far louder than words.

I think the game is designed for narrative. I think the units are designed for product.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

5 minutes ago, jaxom said:

I think the game is designed for narrative. I think the units are designed for product.

I agree.  Units and characters are always designed to be a tasty product,not only as figures. About the game,they tried in that way, clearly, but I believe with little success.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

... to keep playing the game created by the untrustworthy company?

So transparency at a corporate level is a big thing to me, it wouldn't have been hard for them to say on the pre-order day in the article "p.s. we know it appears some options are limited, the Legacies PDF coming Monday will address this".

Why is that a harder concept than not letting people sit in outrage for nearly 5 days?

 

They quite literally told us BEFORE The preorder dates that there was a pdf Legacies document that was tournament supported coming, so once again, I'm really not sure what they could've done that wouldn't have ended up with a certain demographic being up in arms.  It's part and parcel with the hobby; there's always going to be someone angry.

 

 

Funny that a company can simultaneously be incompetent but also be able to fully produce this legacies PDF overnight.

Should GW more transparent?  Sure.  Do I think this is a situation where they could've been more transparent? Maybe?  It kind've feels like they told everyone about the .pdf document (Hell even I knew about it and I basically only interact with HH on this board in any appreciable way) and people ignored it for jumping on the hate train with the bigotry laden release of the scanned libers instead of waiting for actual confirmation.

 

And GW doesn't do much on weekends and probably had this in the hopper for today already planned.  4 days isn't that long of a time, really, and it's just a knock-on effect from our hyperactive, attention deficit disorder society that demands instant gratification that you think 4 days is egregious. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:12 PM by DemonGSides

[Captain Idaho]

GW actually haven't confirmed they will allow Legacies in their tournaments. They notably worded it very specifically: