Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Cleon]

If I was someone who was an 'influencer' (I hate that term) gamer who loved the game and I'd been given the Libre but not the legacies PDF I'd be wondering what I was supposed to think...

[Jings]

20 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

They quite literally told us BEFORE The preorder dates that there was a pdf Legacies document that was tournament supported coming, so once again, I'm really not sure what they could've done that wouldn't have ended up with a certain demographic being up in arms.  It's part and parcel with the hobby; there's always going to be someone angry.

 

 

Funny that a company can simultaneously be incompetent but also be able to fully produce this legacies PDF overnight.

Should GW more transparent?  Sure.  Do I think this is a situation where they could've been more transparent? Maybe?  It kind've feels like they told everyone about the .pdf document (Hell even I knew about it and I basically only interact with HH on this board in any appreciable way) and people ignored it for jumping on the hate train with the bigotry laden release of the scanned libers instead of waiting for actual confirmation.

 

And GW doesn't do much on weekends and probably had this in the hopper for today already planned.  4 days isn't that long of a time, really, and it's just a knock-on effect from our hyperactive, attention deficit disorder society that demands instant gratification that you think 4 days is egregious. 

 

As far as (most) of the missing units go, there's been a bit of chicken little going on. That's a given as we knew the Legacies PDF was coming. The missing options were the greater grievance from my observations, and I don't know the extent to which the PDF will cover the missing options. The article is a good sign, but it's still a bit early in the day to be holier-than-thou about how GW have handled the Libers. 

[Doobles57]

4 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

GW actually haven't confirmed they will allow Legacies in their tournaments. They notably worded it very specifically:

 

They did in a previous article. In fact looking back they even call out that the Libers will deal with the current range and the pdf with everything else.

[Inquisitor Verhek]

So much I want to say about all of this, but it's all been hashed out one way or another already.

I am honestly wondering why though, with GW being such a big money-grubbing, make us buy all new models, only want our money, etc... , they aren't printing all of the legacies options in a hard bound book as Legacies of Heresy.

 

I understand the Libers as being for current and upcoming models, it just makes sense. Yes, there are some questionable choices we don't know all the details to fully understand, but it makes sense for the long run and life of the game. But with the volume of the Legacies lists, it just seems like a perfect opportunity for them to prove how they are just out for our money if they had printed it as a collector's edition, limited run printing. With full explanation of what it was and why.

 

Instead, we get it for free.... Talk about questionable business choices, that's just stupid.

 

 

Now, if the Legion rules were just a bit more, how to put it, substantial? I think I would once again be eagerly excited for the new edition.

[Redcomet]

24 minutes ago, Cleon said:

If I was someone who was an 'influencer' (I hate that term) gamer who loved the game and I'd been given the Libre but not the legacies PDF I'd be wondering what I was supposed to think...

Do what you are hired to do. Influence people to buy the product. You are a glorified ad reader after all 

[OttoVonAwesome]

Well.... How about that article on the legacy document. Feeling silly boys?

 

On a side note I noticed two things... The new Tartaros Terminator box won't have power fists in it... Strange... And also I geuss Sanguinary Guard are gettting an official kit cuase they didn't make the cut and right as I finished bringing them to life in Blender lol.

Edited Wednesday at 06:06 PM by OttoVonAwesome

[roryokane]

2 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Most likely means a new kit is arriving soon, without powerfists in it

 

2 hours ago, Urauloth said:

New kit imminent, I'm guessing.

 

Anyway, the legacies confirmation is great news. Glad to hear it's all "official" and there isn't a two-tier system like the legends pdfs in other GW games. Surprised how much is on that list - didn't think Indomitus armour would make it. I'm sure the survival of the Castraferrum will make a lot of people happy, boxnauts have a big cult following.

 

2 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

They’re still not being honest with this article. Tartaros terminators are a current, in-production kit that has power fists in the box. They do not fit any of their justifications for them not being in the libers.

 

2 hours ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

The idea of "Tartaros Terminator Siege Squad" because they can use power and chain fists or thunder hammers, specially as a completely separate type of squad is more than weird. It's nearly, stupid. 

Tartaros armor is the most advanced and equilibrated terminator model of all. As agile and fast as a power armor but with improved protection beyond the any power armor mark. If it's necessary to make a "Terminator Siege Squad" ,that must be the Cataphractii,right?

 

In the the other hand,why separate "Tactical" and "Assault"/ "Siege" some squads, as in the Codex era? Why such "Guillimanesque" specialised division in Great Crusade/ Heresy era?.

 

Those are some of the ideas, that make feel GW Studio made some terrible mistakes and omissions,and are trying to patching as they discovered how disgusted/angry/etc are most of the community,and realise the hook for new customers is not working as they expect.

They plan,idea,whatever just blowed up as soon the leaks started,and now they trying a damage control.

At least,that's my opinion and feelings about this.

I've got to be honest chaps,  that Tartaros Siege Squad switcheroo absolutely enraged me. I went on a bit of a mad one on their facebook page. It's a clear cop-out to that glaring exception to their stated "The Box comes with the most commonly-used wargear".

They have basically decided that Tartaros Terminators shouldn't have power fists/chainfists/thunder hammers any more. No justification as to WHY - clearly they think the Terminator kits should have more USPs to differentiate them, which no one in the player base asked for. Clearly they're going "OOOH, LIGHT TERMINATORS VS HEAVY TERMINATORS" which misses the entire point, as Agramar said.

Some people just like the aesthetic of Tartaros Terminators as sortof Mk IV/Mini-contemptor hybrids. Gotta be honest, that High Great Crusade era look of mk IV/ Tartaros/Contemptor suits looks GREAT, and losing out on equipment options because GW arbitrarily decided that they shouldn't have the big heavy melee weapons is just beyond foolish.

I bet if they made terminator weapon boxes like they did with the assault weapon boxes they'd sell like hot cakes. Instead GW are like "NO, WE HAVE TO MAKE THE WARGEAR DISTINCT BECAUSE IF WE DON'T PEOPLE WON'T BUY THEM FOR THAT SPECIFIC ROLE" which again shows how little they understand the HH player base.

The "Veteran" squad types to take the equipment that was pinched off them is just dumb - just add the units into the PDF and add all the equipment back for all units. 
Losing pintle options on the Javelin Land Speeder when every single vehicle comes with a pintle sprue of the same weapons land speeders have on their pintle mounts... it's just bonkers.
Poor blood angels and their iliastus assault cannons on vehicles- it looks like the IFs might get the armoury rules for them, but not the Blood Angels...
Every single option needs to come back, IMHO.


I think GW has fundamentally misunderstood what makes HH and its player base tick, and they tried to sortof copy-paste their approach from 40k, and have been met with howls of fury, and rightly so.

If they'd spent a little more time working out how best to approach the problem, they'd have seen that something akin to what they did for the power-armoured marines and the leviathan dreadnoughts (mark-agnostic weapon sprues or separate ranged and melee sprues) would have worked a treat. People were always going to buy new Terminators, but by reducing their weapon options (even if they try to say "no but the siege squads") they've basically made people certain to think twice about it.
It's such an unforced error on their part!

Edited Wednesday at 06:22 PM by roryokane

[Shard of Magnus]

5 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

It is not as permissive as all this. You need three Centurions specifically to unlock six detachments. You need to maximize your Prime Slots as much as possible to work Dreadnaughts in or you waste a whole detachment on them. If you use the Ultramarine Legion special detachment (Primus Demi-Company) for all six auxiliary choices you have a total of 9 Prime Slotes, 8 of which can be used to take Logistical Benefit (2 Prime Slots from the Primary Detachment, 6 from the Demi-Company, and 1 from Apex). Army building has been polluted in such a way you will need a massive number of tactical squads or characters to build anything remotely resembling an old FOC in spite of luring you in with a more permissive attitude. There is also no direct connection to the commander taken and the detachment they unlock which is, narratively, total horse poop. 

Logistical benefit is limited to once per detachment.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

They quite literally told us BEFORE The preorder dates that there was a pdf Legacies document that was tournament supported coming, so once again, I'm really not sure what they could've done that wouldn't have ended up with a certain demographic being up in arms.  It's part and parcel with the hobby; there's always going to be someone angry.

 

 

Funny that a company can simultaneously be incompetent but also be able to fully produce this legacies PDF overnight.

Should GW more transparent?  Sure.  Do I think this is a situation where they could've been more transparent? Maybe?  It kind've feels like they told everyone about the .pdf document (Hell even I knew about it and I basically only interact with HH on this board in any appreciable way) and people ignored it for jumping on the hate train with the bigotry laden release of the scanned libers instead of waiting for actual confirmation.

 

And GW doesn't do much on weekends and probably had this in the hopper for today already planned.  4 days isn't that long of a time, really, and it's just a knock-on effect from our hyperactive, attention deficit disorder society that demands instant gratification that you think 4 days is egregious. 

I am so confused right now.

 

You've told me you aren't sure what more they could have done whilst agreeing they could have been more transparent and acknowledging a gap between initial info and the solution to the gap. So it kinda sounds like you know they could have been more explicit earlier.

 

You only get one first impression, that for a lot of people was one of "my units don't exist in the books any more", which again, is completely avoidable if they outlined what the Legacies document was for, why exactly it existed and what it would contain (or conversely what the libers lacked) ahead of the review embargo lifting.

 

It seems amazing to me that 4-5 days of frankly ruinous press is an acceptable and excusable idea.

[SvenIronhand]

6 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

It seems amazing to me that 4-5 days of frankly ruinous press is an acceptable and excusable idea.

4-5 days only brought about by action outside of the company.

[Timberley]

9 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Well.... How about that article on the legacy document. Feeling silly boys?

 

On a side note I noticed two things... The new Tartaros Terminator box won't have power fists in it... Strange... And also I geuss Sanguinary Guard are gettting an official kit cuase they didn't make the cut and right as I finished bringing them to life in Blender lol.

Not really, no.  GW should've been aware that this outrage would've sprung up in the wake of the leaks and gotten in front of it days ago, perhaps having an article similar to the current WarCom article that released on preorder Saturday, when the embargo lifted.  They cannot be so naïve as to think that the average wargamer would patiently wait for a Legacies Liber to come along and add their units back in, given the way things have shaken out in their other games with the wholesale removal of units/models, despite indications to the contrary?

 

I do agree with you that having a Terminator squad of any kind without power fists as a stock choice is an incredibly odd decision.  However, as the leaked rules showed, it's no longer an option for a standard Tartaros squad, so the models reflect the rules or vica versa.

[OttoVonAwesome]

10 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

I am so confused right now.

 

You've told me you aren't sure what more they could have done whilst agreeing they could have been more transparent and acknowledging a gap between initial info and the solution to the gap. So it kinda sounds like you know they could have been more explicit earlier.

 

You only get one first impression, that for a lot of people was one of "my units don't exist in the books any more", which again, is completely avoidable if they outlined what the Legacies document was for, why exactly it existed and what it would contain (or conversely what the libers lacked) ahead of the review embargo lifting.

 

It seems amazing to me that 4-5 days of frankly ruinous press is an acceptable and excusable idea.

They actually did just not in so many words but hey people like losing thier :cuss: over stuff.

[Robbienw]

I think the only conceivable reason doing a new Tartaros kit without all the historical options is because they decided it will only be a standard specialist games one sprue 5 body infantry kit.  This will only have room 1 weapon set each, and no room for all the other options.

[Urauloth]

What do the Cataphractii options look like in the Liber? Is it possible there's a general split coming where "siege terminators" are a distinct unit category like "assault terminators" are in WH40k? I could see them making a "body" sprue for new TDA and then separate weapon sets so you're buying a box with the bodies and one batch of loadout options like you do with dreads.

[Jings]

13 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

I think the only conceivable reason doing a new Tartaros kit without all the historical options is because they decided it will only be a standard specialist games one sprue 5 body infantry kit.  This will only have room 1 weapon set each, and no room for all the other options.

 

It's crazy that we're getting a new Tartaros kit with no option for fists to replace the Tartaros kit that had (nearly) no options for Power Weapons. You'd have thought they'd have learned the first time. Utterly bizarre that they aren't compressing the 10-man squad into 1-2 sprues for bodies and heads with a third sprue for arms and weapon options. Three frames that can be doubled up as needed to kit out 10 guys is such a home run. 

[Nephaston]

8 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

What do the Cataphractii options look like in the Liber? Is it possible there's a general split coming where "siege terminators" are a distinct unit category like "assault terminators" are in WH40k? I could see them making a "body" sprue for new TDA and then separate weapon sets so you're buying a box with the bodies and one batch of loadout options like you do with dreads.

Minimum of 5, maximum of 12, whole unit comes with volkite charges and power weapon baseline

[OttoVonAwesome]

16 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

I think the only conceivable reason doing a new Tartaros kit without all the historical options is because they decided it will only be a standard specialist games one sprue 5 body infantry kit.  This will only have room 1 weapon set each, and no room for all the other options.

Pretty much. Sprue space has to be the reason. Funnily enough though I always built them as cheaper units with power weapons to bully lighter infantry as they lacked the 4+ invulnerable save the Cataphractii have that make them so good at trashing elites. I kinda wish they differentiated them a bit more with new heavy weapon or other options like how the Saturnine have.

[LameBeard]

Hey I like to feel I didn’t lose my head over the Liber leaks but I admit I was wrong about the Tormentor - it made it! And surely there can’t be many of those in the wild? Please post pics and prove me wrong!

[Marshal Rohr]

Discord rumors, so take with salt, have mentioned the document has been expanded post backlash. You can believe it or not, but given the timetable, I believe it. 

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Totally. Full damage-control-mode to prevent the edition from being DOA.

 

(Which it will probably still be, given all the multidous reasons we have seen and discussed before, here and elsewhere.)

[Corswain]

Glad that Tartaros will have power fists again. Baffled that they would decide to do it in a seperate listing.

 

Don't believe for a second that they did it so that we don't have to buy multiple kits. That's exactly how the rest of the range works.

[Xirix]

I'm glad that missing options are going to be in Legacies, I still don't really agree with said options not being in the Liber though, kitbashing is a big part of the hobby, gets you creative. When I was playing 40K back in the day, the fact that Dreadnoughts could have Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters and Autocannons and the like didn't confuse or annoy me just because the boxset only came with Multi-Melta, Twin-Linked Lascannon and Assault Cannon. (And missile launcher if not the Venerable kit), it allowed me to want to make those options if I wanted.

Especially with HQ choices, you want tons of options for those so you can make interesting and unique dudes, making it so you need to reference extended material seems, a lame choice to me. Regardless of it being a free PDF.

Edited Wednesday at 07:57 PM by Xirix

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

I am so confused right now.

 

You've told me you aren't sure what more they could have done whilst agreeing they could have been more transparent and acknowledging a gap between initial info and the solution to the gap. So it kinda sounds like you know they could have been more explicit earlier.

 

You only get one first impression, that for a lot of people was one of "my units don't exist in the books any more", which again, is completely avoidable if they outlined what the Legacies document was for, why exactly it existed and what it would contain (or conversely what the libers lacked) ahead of the review embargo lifting.

 

It seems amazing to me that 4-5 days of frankly ruinous press is an acceptable and excusable idea.

 

Every company can be more transparent.  That being factual doesn't really make a difference when GW wasn't the one who showed you Libers first, it was a lunatic on Discord.  The bad press wasn't coming from their influencers they let look at the books, it came from a nutjob scrawling profanities on phone camera pics that were taken as gospel.  The community lost their over something that GW didn't even do, and some people are still falling to pieces over it.

 

And they didn't even get to have a first impression, is kind of the point, right?  Like GW's first impression would've been this article, stating "Hey when you get your hand on those libers, they're going to look a little thin compared to what your collection has.  Remember that we mentioned weeks ago that there's a legacy document for all the stuff that already exists.  We're here to remind you that in two weeks when you get your hands on those books, remember these PDF's that we are supporting FULLY for Warhammer World things, which is the closest this game system is going to get to 'tournament approved' since there are no HH tournaments in our vision of the game, there are Narrative Events, which are just tournaments but without the WAAC, hopefully."

 

You can act like this was GW shooting itself in their foot, but they had a plan for how all of this shook out, and it absolutely wasn't "Deranged weirdo witha  chip on his shoulder spams out the books out of context of the greater release schedule and without any sort of backup from the company making the product."  They fully expected the "We have a legacies PDF that has pretty much everything not in the libers" as a product from the announcement of the libers, and you'd ALWAYS have had the option of reading that before EVER getting hands on with the Libers.  That was taken away from them, and they're pivoting.  GW has never been a nimble company.  Frankly 4 days later is light speed for them, compared to, idk, literally any other 'scandal' that they've had.

Edited Wednesday at 08:04 PM by DemonGSides

[ThaneOfTas]

5 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

I am happy to see that it looks like the Exemplary Battle units got merged in, will be neater to look them up than having two pdfs.

Not all of them unfortunately, my 30k Sang Guard are either waiting on a Journal, or more likely, waiting on Panoptica to re-add them. 

 

Contingent on what my local Heresy scene is going to do.

[Redcomet]

1 hour ago, SvenIronhand said:

4-5 days only brought about by action outside of the company.

This.

 

Peoples ridiculous need to know everything weeks ahead of the games release and the community’s knee jerk response to everything the company does. 
 

There is an almost glee and a desire to have the absolute worst reactions to everything they do.

 

If the edition is DOA, which it won’t be, then it the community has itself partly to blame.