Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Timberley]

50 minutes ago, Matcap86 said:

 

To be fair, the box set and all other stuff will be available for years to come. No need to buy into it before you've got all the info. 

 I agree with you there, but given the current edition grind for the other games, people do want to be on the front foot when their game changes to the new edition, as otherwise they can be left behind if their group changes to the new rules and they don't have access to them yet.  You could argue that they should wait and see how it shakes out first, but given GW's odd approach to releases, it can easily be halfway through the edition cycle before you're in a position to make a fully informed decision.  Granted, the Liber books have all gone up for preorder at the same time (their other games could learn a lot from this approach), but their 'Journal Tactica' series sounds like their way of pushing new plastic and changing things up, which you will probably need to get a couple of, depending upon your faction, and who knows what their release schedule is for those.  For long time HH players, they've gone from 10 years (1.0) to 3 years (2.0), which implies they've got to get on that hamster wheel, the same as 40K and AoS players, which means a different mindset.

[Nephaston]

6 hours ago, Fire Golem said:

Either way, even if the new heresy Termis don’t go as big as the Indomitus, they should definitely be a bit bigger to be more in line with the newer plastic marines.

 

It won't take much either judging by the size of the Contekar and Ebon Keshig

 

 

[BitsHammer]

16 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

 

It won't take much either judging by the size of the Contekar and Ebon Keshig

 

 

Thank Contekar is clearly as tall as the Tartaros he's next too, he's just on a taller base.

[Corswain]

13 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

 

It won't take much either judging by the size of the Contekar and Ebon Keshig

 

 

I have the Contekar and the plastic Tartaros and I would say that they are a little closer than that image suggests. They are bigger, just not that much bigger. Tactical rock pose exaggerates the difference too.

 

If new stuff lines up with Contekar I think it will be about right.

[phandaal]

15 hours ago, Norman Paperman said:

Absolutely top tier nerd drama. I hope GW never loses sight of the fact that a community as passionate as this is a vibrant life blood that shows how good of a thing you've got going. 

 

This is the right approach in my opinion. People get worked up because they are passionate. There is always a small contingent of people who will then come in on top of the drama and make themselves out to be above it all and better than the lower class of nerd who did get upset, but it usually just means they have not been burned in a way that personally bothers them at the time.

 

15 hours ago, Norman Paperman said:

And fair play to GW as well. I've only been in this hobby a touch under two years, but they're far from the anti-player/consumer monsters that they get called so often. 

 

I respectfully submit that you should just wait and see. GW as a company can be negligent at times with the way that the company seems to take its fan base for granted, and they have an acknowledged lack of interest for long-term customers compared to new customers who might be ready to throw down big bucks on a brand new army. Unless they can turn a long-term customer into a new one, i.e. by changing army composition in a big way.

 

And fair warning - if you do get too comfortable painting your fellow hobbyists as the insult-du-jour, you may find that when something does seriously bug you and you complain about it, not many people step in to get your back. (The rhetorical "you" in this case. I don't think you personally are doing that.)

Edited Thursday at 11:56 AM by phandaal

[Marshal Rohr]

2 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

This is the right approach in my opinion. People get worked up because they are passionate. There is always a small contingent of people who will then come in on top of the drama and make themselves out to be above it all and better than the lower class of nerd who did get upset, but it usually just means they have not been burned in a way that personally bothers them at the time.

 

 

I respectfully submit that you should just wait and see. GW as a company can be negligent at times with the way that the company seems to take its fan base for granted, and they have an acknowledged lack of interest for long-term customers compared to new customers who might be ready to throw down big bucks on a brand new army. Unless they can turn a long-term customer into a new one, i.e. by changing army composition in a big way.

 

And fair warning - if you do get too comfortable painting your fellow hobbyists as the insult-du-jour, you may find that when something does seriously bug you and you complain about it, not many people step in to get your back. (The rhetorical "you" in this case. I don't think you personally are doing that.)

They’ve gotta learn the hard way like the rest of us. 

[Nephaston]

16 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Thank Contekar is clearly as tall as the Tartaros he's next too, he's just on a taller base.

 

It has one foot on a rock, the other is obstructed by the tuft

 

Having one foot raised doesn't add height if the knee is bent.

[Evil Eye]

I actually like the current HH Terminator sizes, which are about in line with the 4E-5E metal Terminator character sculpts like the lovely metal Chaplain; so taller than the old plastics but shorter than the newer, very large ones. If they do upscale them I hope it's not to excess; the 10E Terminators are nice models but they are very large, more than they should be IMO.

(Side note, if you have any old FW Tartaros armour and old ball-waisted plastic Terminators, using the Tartaros legs and plastic chests makes for really good, nicely proportioned hybrid armour; I used Phoenix Terminators and last-gen Chaos Termies and the results were great, need to dig up some pics. The reverse actually works well too but they are obviously a touch shorter than the first way round).

[Captain Idaho]

People are defending GW by saying they're not reacting to the community and it was all planned all along, yet they literally posted this on Warhammer Community:

 

 

 

Sure, that entire article where they're addressing directly things the community is complaining about shows they don't listen to us at all.

 

Let's be real; their article shows there has been an impact. If things didn't matter then they wouldn't have needed to bother would they, eh. They could just carry on and reap the rewards of all those orders from their success, right?

 

***

 

I realised what this new edition nightmare is - it's when the Chaos Space Marines Codex 3.5 of 40K was replaced with the atrocious 4th Codex.

 

Clearly GW haven't learned any lessons.

[BitsHammer]

Just now, Captain Idaho said:

People are defending GW by saying they're not reacting to the community and it was all planned all along, yet they literally posted this on Warhammer Community:

 

 

 

Sure, that entire article where they're addressing directly things the community is complaining about shows they don't listen to us at all.

 

Let's be real; their article shows there has been an impact. If things didn't matter then they wouldn't have needed to bother would they, eh. They could just carry on and reap the rewards of all those orders from their success, right?

 

***

 

I realised what this new edition nightmare is - it's when the Chaos Space Marines Codex 3.5 of 40K was replaced with the atrocious 4th Codex.

 

Clearly GW haven't learned any lessons.

The article was definitely damage control (and may have delayed the PDF because these articles need approval before release) but the PDF was likely not massively updated in response to the community. That is unless they already had all this stuff sitting around in a document somewhere and copied and pasted it in.

[Captain Idaho]

We haven't seen the document yet, so it takes 5 mins to write an article.

[BitsHammer]

1 minute ago, Captain Idaho said:

We haven't seen the document yet, so it takes 5 mins to write an article.

5 minutes to write an article? Sure. But not 5 minutes to send it up the chain and get approval. I may not have worked for GW, but I've held and office job and any time you need to get approval on something it takes time, sometimes days, just to get it looked at, "corrections" issued, changes made, sent back for approval again, and then eventually approved.

 

I just find the more likely answer is that they had planned to have most of the (if not all) of the datasheets mentioned in the article in the pdf well before we got the article. The only way I'd believe they didn't have them is if someone had done the work on those datasheets and they'd been removed from the army lists and they just pulled up the old draft and copied them back in, something that would be reasonably quick and easy to do.

[Brother Sutek]

41 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I actually like the current HH Terminator sizes, which are about in line with the 4E-5E metal Terminator character sculpts like the lovely metal Chaplain; so taller than the old plastics but shorter than the newer, very large ones. If they do upscale them I hope it's not to excess; the 10E Terminators are nice models but they are very large, more than they should be IMO.

(Side note, if you have any old FW Tartaros armour and old ball-waisted plastic Terminators, using the Tartaros legs and plastic chests makes for really good, nicely proportioned hybrid armour; I used Phoenix Terminators and last-gen Chaos Termies and the results were great, need to dig up some pics. The reverse actually works well too but they are obviously a touch shorter than the first way round).

If you want to get in the way back machine with me then look at the old Librarian models for Space Hulk. I love them and their simplistic style and use them as force axe armed Death Guard Terminators, however they are tiny! Also very primitive models to be fair and don't hold up as well as the other Terminators of the time.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

The pdf may address the wargear problems, it may not. It won’t do anything to return the flavor and flexibility of the rites of war. 

[Joe]

I'm doubtful the PDF has been delayed at all either - it was always slated to come out in July per the roadmap (this can shift admittedly, god bless those roadmaps), however it was never going to come out on a weekend.

 

28th to the 31st for the PDF, which is really where it wouldn've dropped anyway. So nothing has perceptibly changed from what was initially announced, we're just heaping on more speculation now for the sake of chasing internet points. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BitsHammer]

2 minutes ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

The pdf may address the wargear problems, it may not. It won’t do anything to return the flavor and flexibility of the rites of war. 

I don't know if the flexibility of rites of war is needed with the current system as much as the ability to give line or vanguard to units. Like sure we're getting bikes back on models but without line or vanguard they're going to struggle to score effectively (assuming calvary can score since I haven't seen the unit types breakdown). I also haven't tried list building with the new system yet so that may be giving me a bias about the need for different units to be troops choices.

[BitsHammer]

So something I noticed worth noting is that Primarchs do mess with the force org a bit. For example Curze turns all troops into Prime Slots if you take four or more Terror Squads and/or Assault Squads (and yes, Assault Squads are a troops choice) in your list.

 

 

Something worth looking at for your legion picks as there may be an option to turn on some extra slots through Logistical Benefit. Sure it means taking a Primarch, but statistically that's one of the more popular inclusions in people's armies.

[Karhedron]

23 hours ago, skylerboodie said:

The upcoming Legacies of the Age of Darkness PDF is a huge document which will allow you to continue to use the vast majority of miniatures you’ve amassed over the last decade of collecting.

 

So basically they have introduced Legends to HH. I am not impressed by this approach. We know from 40K that moving stuff to Legends is basically a postponed death sentence for the unit and effectively restricts it to friendly games only.

[BitsHammer]

3 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

So basically they have introduced Legends to HH. I am not impressed by this approach. We know from 40K that moving stuff to Legends is basically a postponed death sentence for the unit and effectively restricts it to friendly games only.

Legends isn't a new thing for 30k. We have it for 2.0 too. In fact if you go to the Horus Heresy downloads page on Warhammer Community you can still find them: 

[crimsondave]

1 minute ago, Karhedron said:

 

So basically they have introduced Legends to HH. I am not impressed by this approach. We know from 40K that moving stuff to Legends is basically a postponed death sentence for the unit and effectively restricts it to friendly games only.

To be fair, GW said they should be used in all games unless the event organizer decides against its.  They said they will be allowed in GW events.

 

My main complaint about 40K legends is they should be available in the app.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

23 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

I don't know if the flexibility of rites of war is needed with the current system as much as the ability to give line or vanguard to units. Like sure we're getting bikes back on models but without line or vanguard they're going to struggle to score effectively (assuming calvary can score since I haven't seen the unit types breakdown). I also haven't tried list building with the new system yet so that may be giving me a bias about the need for different units to be troops choices.

I think you’re spot on about the jetbikes. The deep strike limitations eviscerate Day of Revalation, I can’t see that getting fixed. Well, not in the pdf in any event. For me it’s not “the game you know and love” and I can’t “just add another centurion” . These were lies, or at the least misinformation. I can’t abide a liar and I’m certainly not going to give a pack of them my money.

[Indy Techwisp]

16 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

So basically they have introduced Legends to HH. I am not impressed by this approach. We know from 40K that moving stuff to Legends is basically a postponed death sentence for the unit and effectively restricts it to friendly games only.

 

The difference between 40k Legends and Horus Heresy Legacies is that HH is actually balanced around those units being used as GW expects them to make appearances at official events where as 40k is not balanced with Legends in mind since those units are not allowed at Official Events.

[Captain Idaho]

37 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

5 minutes to write an article? Sure. But not 5 minutes to send it up the chain and get approval. I may not have worked for GW, but I've held and office job and any time you need to get approval on something it takes time, sometimes days, just to get it looked at, "corrections" issued, changes made, sent back for approval again, and then eventually approved.

 

It's not quite the Administration of Holy Terra. When I worked for Lloyds Bank, you were tasked to do something, you sent a copy of it to your QC team and they looked at it, then it was out the door.

 

When dealing with projects we'd send an explanation of your work to the line manager who would send you a thumbs up and that's done.

 

The article could have been done in 5 mins easily.

[Indy Techwisp]

30 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

I don't know if the flexibility of rites of war is needed with the current system as much as the ability to give line or vanguard to units. Like sure we're getting bikes back on models but without line or vanguard they're going to struggle to score effectively (assuming calvary can score since I haven't seen the unit types breakdown). I also haven't tried list building with the new system yet so that may be giving me a bias about the need for different units to be troops choices.

 

Also, I feel like playing Devil's advocate a bit but if there's Jetbike/Outrider character units in the Legacies PDF couldn't one of those have some ability/trait which gives (some) Jetbikes/Outriders Line?

 

Say, the character unit grants Line to Outrider models taken in the slot(s) that character adds to your army?

[BitsHammer]

9 minutes ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

I think you’re spot on about the jetbikes. The deep strike limitations eviscerate Day of Revalation, I can’t see that getting fixed. Well, not in the pdf in any event. For me it’s not “the game you know and love” and I can’t “just add another centurion” . These were lies, or at the least misinformation. I can’t abide a liar and I’m certainly not going to give a pack of them my money.

Trust me, as someone who has been waiting patiently for plastic bikes so I could build a Night Lords Swift Blade army (bikes and jetbikes, no Curze/Sevatar/Heavy models, the special feature was having 5 characters that all count as your warlord) because I want a biker gang, I fully feel that. Outriders have a similar issue as the Jetbikes by being Calvary, though they have Vanguard (1) so they don't suffer quite as much.

 

And sure, I could build a Jump Pack Night Lords list and stop complaining but it's just one of those flavorful things they took away that really disappoints me. Then again I shouldn't be shocked when NL went from 4 RoW in 1.0 to 2 in 2.0.

 

At least they made Atramentar less bad, shame I can't use Saturnine in the Atramentar detachment though. The free deep strike on them would have been a nice option for people who don't want to put a melee character into a ranged unit.

 

Like I said before, this edition really has given me mixed feelings. Like even when I find something I like I've had a criticism come out of my mouth in the same breath.

Edited Thursday at 01:44 PM by BitsHammer