Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Sky Potato]

Wouldn’t surprise me!

[Wibbling]

14 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

3) The Legions rules need a total overhaul. A "faction Legacies" would assuage the issues here.

 

Could you explain what you mean, please? Are they not thematic/dramatic/in depth enough/confusing? 

[Astartes Consul]

Yeah, there was a *lot* of marketing done in the lead in. Easily as much as a new edition of 40k or AoS gets, all though probably over even a longer period because of the ‘Hearsay’ stuff. But clearly the leaks - combined with that was in them - have killed a lot of hype off and GW took over a week to put out the article in Legacies when a much quicker response might have salvaged something…

[Wibbling]

14 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

The contempt GW has for their own players seems to have reached spiteful levels at this point.

 

It is not contempt. It's important to remember that the people working at Workshop are decent, caring folk who enjoy what they do. They're not paid squillions so there's a lot more love than folk imagine. 

 

What the edition feels like is competing business units vying for different outcomes for their own different BU reasons. I think everyone understands there's a 'tension' between the quality of a product and the sale/marketing of it. One side wants it to be good and hang when it goes out. The other wants to release, regardless. Both sides are understandable for different reasons. 

 

Language such as contempt are unfair to the individuals. 

[caladancid]

1 hour ago, Wibbling said:

 

It is not contempt. It's important to remember that the people working at Workshop are decent, caring folk who enjoy what they do. They're not paid squillions so there's a lot more love than folk imagine. 

 

What the edition feels like is competing business units vying for different outcomes for their own different BU reasons. I think everyone understands there's a 'tension' between the quality of a product and the sale/marketing of it. One side wants it to be good and hang when it goes out. The other wants to release, regardless. Both sides are understandable for different reasons. 

 

Language such as contempt are unfair to the individuals. 

 

Not to go too far down the rabbit hole here- but this is all made up just as much as you propose the word 'contempt' is made up. You want it to be true, and it sounds good, but you don't know any of this or have proof of it.

 

You could just as easily say that the sale/marketing side understands that great games sell better, but the design side really wants to push power levels and doesn't care whether it is received well. There is just as much evidence of that.

 

This edition is rough so far. The basic rules, for the most part, I am very excited about. The legion rules are not awesome. Particularly if you compare how the transition was done from 1st to 2nd edition, this is a huge step back. That blame is on someone, do any of us really know who that is? No. But speculating based on the facts as we know them seems fair.

[MARK0SIAN]

1 hour ago, Wibbling said:

 

It is not contempt. It's important to remember that the people working at Workshop are decent, caring folk who enjoy what they do. They're not paid squillions so there's a lot more love than folk imagine. 

 

What the edition feels like is competing business units vying for different outcomes for their own different BU reasons. I think everyone understands there's a 'tension' between the quality of a product and the sale/marketing of it. One side wants it to be good and hang when it goes out. The other wants to release, regardless. Both sides are understandable for different reasons. 

 

Language such as contempt are unfair to the individuals. 

I disagree because I’m not just talking about a tension between trying to make it amazing on one hand and trying to get it out the door on the other (although it also doesn’t show much respect for your customers if you think it’s ok to release something so riddled with errors and rely on a patch to fix it).

 

I’m talking about the fact that in books and other sources that were available just 1-2 months ago they encouraged conversions to make units that didn’t have specific kits along with wargear selections available for lots of different roles. They then just turn around and with no regard for the effort people have put into that just say ‘No, can’t do that anymore!’ That’s showing nothing but contempt for your customers. I played at an event against a player with an amazing Sisters of Silence army, he’d converted all the different units including crocodiles made from Seraphon models, the only thing he didn’t have were the sisters on jetbikes. He must’ve spent over a hundred hours, not to mention the financial cost to build that army. Now he can’t even play it. I honestly can’t fathom the mindset that thinks it’s ok to do that to your customers, it’s certainly not one that has any respect for said customers.

[Pacific81]

There are interviews with Rick Priestley & Co saying that sales/marketing were dictating releases as far back ago as Gorkamorka and 3rd/4th edition 40k. So it stands to reason, especially after the company was floated on the stock market & is now a massive company worth hundreds of £millions on the ftse-100 list, this is going to be the case more than ever.

 

No developer names on their work, no credited artists or creatives. I have no doubt there are good folks still there and trying to do their best, but it feels like they are squished behind deadlines and aggressive release cycles. And the proof is in the quality of the rules, or lack of, and its crazy that we have a company of this size and scale letting the community playtest for them.. 

So absolutely not contempt from the creatives, whoever they might be, but very much so from a sales division that knows however they treat their customer base it will just keep coming back (acting as though in a monopoly, which in many respects they are).

Edited 22 hours ago by Pacific81

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, caladancid said:

Not to go too far down the rabbit hole here- but this is all made up just as much as you propose the word 'contempt' is made up. You want it to be true, and it sounds good, but you don't know any of this or have proof of it.

 

Not to mention we do have proof of people acting in ways that could indicate contempt for customers.

 

For example, whoever made the decision to delete entire ranges of units/loadouts that were common until now could certainly be said to have contempt for the time people put into building their massive HH armies.

 

Whoever is pushing for a harder split between ranges to make it more difficult for people to use their HH models in official 40k events after hard selling cross compatibility (i.e. Leviathan dreads) seems to not be all that concerned about how customers might feel.

 

Whoever chose to release a premium cost rulebook that needs a large Day One DLC to fix it probably cares less about getting a quality product into people's hands than he does about getting people's money into GW's bank accounts.

 

And so on. That kind of person is who people are referring to when they speak about "contempt," not the Peachies and Louises and the real nerdy fanboys grinding things out under The Man.

[Northern Walker]

15 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Not to mention we do have proof of people acting in ways that could indicate contempt for customers.

 

For example, whoever made the decision to delete entire ranges of units/loadouts that were common until now could certainly be said to have contempt for the time people put into building their massive HH armies.

 

Whoever is pushing for a harder split between ranges to make it more difficult for people to use their HH models in official 40k events after hard selling cross compatibility (i.e. Leviathan dreads) seems to not be all that concerned about how customers might feel.

 

Whoever chose to release a premium cost rulebook that needs a large Day One DLC to fix it probably cares less about getting a quality product into people's hands than he does about getting people's money into GW's bank accounts.

 

And so on. That kind of person is who people are referring to when they speak about "contempt," not the Peachies and Louises and the real nerdy fanboys grinding things out under The Man.

I think this is really well put. The company shows contempt, many of the employees are good people. Whether some of them are any use at rules writing is debatable of course  but the driving force of all that we complain about will be corporate.

[Bung]

6 hours ago, Sky Potato said:

What a damp squib of an edition launch. Nothing on WarCom, nothing on YouTube. No Day One release of legends. No fanfare.

 

Compared to the launch of Leviathan - https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/4OAFR8uP/leviathan-launch-party-join-us-for-a-day-of-hobby-tips-live-battles-and-more/

 

Warcom doesnt do articles on Saturdays.

There are still some laws protecting workers in the UK.

 

Is it really that bad to wait another 23 days for something you dont even need to pay for?

[BitsHammer]

10 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

Warcom doesnt do articles on Saturdays.

There are still some laws protecting workers in the UK.

 

Is it really that bad to wait another 23 days for something you dont even need to pay for?

We do get an article announcing the pre-order window opening (times with North America's pre-order window) but that stuff is scheduled.

 

But yeah we don't get big edition launch articles on the Saturday stuff hits the street date.

[Sky Potato]

6 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

Warcom doesnt do articles on Saturdays.

There are still some laws protecting workers in the UK.

 

Is it really that bad to wait another 23 days for something you dont even need to pay for?

Apart from the linked article in that post, from Saturday 24 June 2023 - launch day of 10th Ed? WarCom do frequently post on Saturdays - or at least, they used to.

 

I’m not sure what laws protecting workers you’re on about. There’s nothing stopping the social media team uploading content on a Saturday. Sunday is the protected day in the UK, and even then people are allowed to work.
 

I’m sure all the retail staff and other parts of the business are putting a shift in today, so I’m a little surprised to have radio silence from the marketing department on edition launch day.

 

I’m not sure where waiting another 23 days has come from, but I’d very much like to see what models from my collection that were arbitrarily removed from the £50 rulebooks I’ll actually be able to use this edition. 

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Maybe they’re just waiting for the US time zones to catch up? Not on sale yet here.

[Bung]

19 minutes ago, Sky Potato said:

Apart from the linked article in that post, from Saturday 24 June 2023 - launch day of 10th Ed? WarCom do frequently post on Saturdays - or at least, they used to.

 

I’m not sure what laws protecting workers you’re on about. There’s nothing stopping the social media team uploading content on a Saturday. Sunday is the protected day in the UK, and even then people are allowed to work.
 

I’m sure all the retail staff and other parts of the business are putting a shift in today, so I’m a little surprised to have radio silence from the marketing department on edition launch day.

 

I’m not sure where waiting another 23 days has come from, but I’d very much like to see what models from my collection that were arbitrarily removed from the £50 rulebooks I’ll actually be able to use this edition. 

 

I dont follow 40k for some Editions now, but its still way bigger than Horus Heresy and has probably more marketing behind it.

 

For your removed Models, GW made their policy rather clear with all other games now: If we dont sell it, its not in our rulebooks and a new customer shall have any option he needs only from GW, no third party and no 3d Prints needed.

 

Think about this, GW as a company is in the middle of streamlining their resin production. How many complaints do you see daily with: I want to buy xy but its not in stock?

I expect in the next years Resin production reduced to single Infantry Models, Shoulderpads and similar upgrades you just need to glue on the model and big models like Titans and similar display style miniaturs which arent sold that often.

 

[Sky Potato]

 

16 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Maybe they’re just waiting for the US time zones to catch up? Not on sale yet here.

 

Maybe, but that doesn’t usually affect the usual Saturday articles. Articles on Saturdays normally drop on or around 1000 GMT or BST. Those emails might be region specific depending on where you’re Warhammer account is region locked to.

 

Realistically, would it matter if release day stuff came out slightly early due to time zones, as long as it was on release day itself?

 

34 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

We do get an article announcing the pre-order window opening (times with North America's pre-order window) but that stuff is scheduled.

 

But yeah we don't get big edition launch articles on the Saturday stuff hits the street date.

Except we did with Leviathan and 10th. I linked to it above. And I’m pretty sure we did for Heresy 2nd Ed, but they’ve gone back and nuked several of the old 2nd Ed WarCom articles for some reason.

 

For Leviathan and Skaventide, there was a global campaign run for a week or so from launch day. For Heresy, nothing.

 

Somebody mentioned something in the White Dwarf thread, which I completely agree with - it all seems like marketing laziness at the moment. Somewhat ironically, as it very much seems that the marketing/corporate departments have rushed this edition out prematurely in order to meet a summer launch date. Now the release date has been met but marketing have gone radio silent.

 

There’s very little launch day fanfare from any of the channels I follow on YouTube either. There was a little flurry of Saturnine painting tutorials last week, but almost all of the people who get advance stuff aren’t capitalising on edition launch day. I know this isn’t something that GW have control over, but it just seems unusual to me.

 

As I said, it all feels like a damp squib of an edition launch day. I know all of this will pass, but I just find it weird that this edition is getting less effort on release day than 40K or even AOS.

[Sky Potato]

35 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

I dont follow 40k for some Editions now, but its still way bigger than Horus Heresy and has probably more marketing behind it.

 

For your removed Models, GW made their policy rather clear with all other games now: If we dont sell it, its not in our rulebooks and a new customer shall have any option he needs only from GW, no third party and no 3d Prints needed.

 

Think about this, GW as a company is in the middle of streamlining their resin production. How many complaints do you see daily with: I want to buy xy but its not in stock?

I expect in the next years Resin production reduced to single Infantry Models, Shoulderpads and similar upgrades you just need to glue on the model and big models like Titans and similar display style miniaturs which arent sold that often.

 

I know this, and yet for Heresy it seems like a self inflicted problem. It took them 2 1/2 years to release a melee weapons sprue for an edition that lasted 3 years.

They’ve removed Destroyers from the Libers. They will be in Legends so until that drops, I can’t use those models. Those models are still on the website by the way - out of stock, but still listed on the GW website.

 

What many people are expecting is a future Journal Tactica to drop mid way through the edition at the same time as plastic destroyers. Which long term will be nice, having plastic destroyers, as well as breachers etc - but how they are going about it seems very anti consumer. Removing a currently legal option, putting the rules for the new version behind a paywall, and only having that new version available for less than the 3 year duration of the edition.

 

Which is why I’m a bit annoyed they’ve not bothered to release the Legends units on release day. They’ve upset many people with what they’ve done in the Libers, and they know it’s the promise of Legends that are keeping a lot of people on tenterhooks about this edition. But they couldn’t be bothered to have Legends prepared and ready to be released on release day for the edition.

Edited 19 hours ago by Sky Potato

[BitsHammer]

Heresy pdfs are fully legal additions to whatever is in the libers. If anyone says they aren't they are lying to you.

 

Don't let people bring that 40k nonsense about not using Legends into Heresy.

[Antarius]

I am not usually in the "doom and gloom" camp, but yeah, this edition launch has been quite bad.

 

Some of the reasons are probably beyond GWs control and I would certainly never ascribe bad motives to the creatives working there (I am sure they're lovely people and I'm sure they want to produce the best game they can, under the circumstances), but most of the problems do seem to have to do with either marketing or the actual content of the game (some of this last point might well be marketing's fault too, either directly or indirectly).

 

I don't think it's unfair to say that, whether GW as a company cares about their Horus Heresy customers or not, they have certainly given (or, more charitably, not done enough to avoid) the impression that they don't. I am sure it must be heartbreaking for the specialist games designers, as I am sure they pour a lot of themselves in to their work, but whatever the reason, 3rd edition simply has too many problems to bother with. I've put my rulebook up for sale and I won't be buying any of the Libers or journals, because the game is simply too much of a hassle, not because the rules aren't dumbed down enough (if anyone from marketing is reading this...), but because of the convoluted writing and the dripfeeding of ocntent over an already disastrously short edition cycle.

[Redcomet]

The negativity on this forum.

 

Holy moly.

[Allart01]

12 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

The negativity on this forum.

 

Holy moly.

I appreciate the effort to try and look at the bright side, but the same can be said about forced positivity.

 

Some of the complaints in this topic are quite legitimate.

[Captain Idaho]

7 hours ago, Wibbling said:

 

Could you explain what you mean, please? Are they not thematic/dramatic/in depth enough/confusing? 

 

Hey. Yes, the faction specific rules are poorly done and lack the character of the last edition.

 

As an example, the Ultramarines capacity to get a single Reaction point once a turn for free, in a game where both sides have reactions each turn anyway, can't repeat Reactions infinitely and everyone will use the return fire capacity anyway because the game is shooting focused, is negligible since it won't change how anyone plays in practice.

 

Compared to receiving +1 to hit for units that target units already targeted by another friend within 6", which gives the impression of mutual and coordinated efforts working together. It's unique, more effective and concise.

 

Then the Rites of War like the Logos Lectora which is unique and gives tangible benefits to a themed army that would otherwise be limited. Which doesn't exist now.

 

Doesn't take into account things like anemic unit and special character rules.

Edited 17 hours ago by Captain Idaho

[StratoKhan]

30 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

The negativity on this forum.

 

Holy moly.

 

Negativity compared to what?

[caladancid]

I wouldn't even worry about the folks who come in with comments like that. I wouldn't say it's bad faith, but it isn't good faith either. It's similar to the "you need to play before you make any comments" reactions rolling around, which of course ignores the fact that swathes of our armies are not playable today or until GW releases this free PDF.

 

It just is what it is. Some people really hate criticism of GW, almost taking it personally. I can't explain it, it seems obvious that not holding them to a standard just makes the product worse in the long run, but we repeatedly see it.

 

I've actually thought that most of the comments about problems are fairly restrained and considered.

[Irate Khornate]

They have pretty much weeded out the people that are tired of the lack of stability in their main two games which are 40K and AOS. 

 

Some people outright left the hobby and that's understandable, but others found refuge in both 30k and TOW. And from what it looks like, that's a large chunk of their player base. People tired of the churn that want to be able to take their time working on their armies as a passion project.

 

You have now taken one said refuges and replaced what was promised as stability and not many changes with the same exact churn that people are so sick of. Not only that, Games workshop lied to us at the very beginning. Had the leaks not come out people would have bought it and only after they had bought it would they realize they had been lied to.

 

So yeah, there's going to be an ungodly amount of negativity. There's going to be a sharp decline in sales because people are pissed. There are good reasons why retailers are selling this box and some selling all their 30k stock in general basically at cost. 

 

Now here comes the big question, does Games workshop learn from this, do they continue as if nothing happened, or do they abandon the game? We will see.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Antarius said:

I am not usually in the "doom and gloom" camp, but yeah, this edition launch has been quite bad.

 

Went by my FLGS today for some paint and they did have maybe 8 Saturnine boxes marked for pre-order pickup behind the cash register. Aside from that, it looked like they had sold one copy of the Space Marines rules and nothing else. The whole display was full, including the rest of their Saturnine boxes.

 

Store was packed but the new HH stuff was just not getting any pickup.

 

So I guess the people who wanted to get their box early are definitely going to get it, and otherwise it is not moving the needle.