Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[BitsHammer]

On 8/10/2025 at 9:35 AM, jaxom said:

3.0 army building reminds me of Nigel Stillman's advice on collecting, painting, and gaming. Vexing if one is working off the 1.0/2.0 zeitgeist, but very valuable if starting from scratch in this new40k 3rd ed/HH3.0 zeitgeist.

Honestly Heresy always supported building more towards a theme than chasing a meta. Sure you can grow your force over time but with the quasi-historical framework the game really encourages you to build to a theme and not chase the dragon. 

 

On 8/10/2025 at 10:45 AM, SlickSamos said:

I could write an essay on what they did wrong because, for me, it is so close to being excellent. 

 

But the short version is:

If everyone had a wider range of detachment choices (e.g. Dark Angels) then I think it would be less stressful for the players without missing what SDS was probably aiming for; and, 

If each detachment had a tiny bonus associated with it then it'll feel so much better adhering to it and make them feel like actual detachments

I have two issues with detachments: 

1. They should have used icons. Sillouhettes were not a good choice.

2. Even with a low number of detachments per legion (excluding Dark Angels who are pulling a spiders George and breaking the curve) if they had a unique prime slot bonus per detachment, it would have done a lot to splash legion flavor into the armies. The Atramentar detachment having the Atramentar prime slot bonus should have been the standard for every detachment. It doesn't have to be anything crazy for a bonus, but there should be a bonus because the generic prime slot bonuses are so thin and don't really offer much for flavor.

 

Speaking of which: Primarchs shouldn't only give their thematic bonus for a single turn. So many of those bonuses are just useless because you only get them for one turn out of the game.

 

I don't hate detachments as a concept, or the idea of splitting up slot types, or even moving away from an FOC to try and make a more flexible system that doesn't require you run specific characters just to get to do certain characters as troops. I just think it didn't go far enough for making customization matter or encourage us to lean into the flavors the legion detachments should add to the legions instead of grabbing them to squeeze in a couple extra slots.

Edited Monday at 04:56 PM by BitsHammer

[Bung]

2 hours ago, Brofist said:

So.... how about the tags they started adding that do nothing on various unit entries?

 

You mean the Traits?

 

They are partly future proofing. They do nothing on their own, they are for other rules to interact like the weapon traits.

[Brofist]

I'd argue they're confusing- if they don't actually do anything they shouldn't be included. Is this trait intentionally pointless, or is it a missing rule? Impossible to know anymore.

[BitsHammer]

If we're talking the labels like labels High Command, Heavy Assault, Troops, Support, etc then I think it was so they could further subdivide units to better fit their roles for theme reasons while also making possible for legions to lean into unit types they'd want extra of without unlocking everything. Like how Terminators and Veterans are two different detachment slot types. If they want a legion to focus more on veteran units than terminators (or vice versa) it's easier to do so with a detachment than juggling the "take X to make Y troops" of old system that tended to get rather clunky. This approach also means you don't need to have a special rule just to free up more slots in the old FOC just so you can take more bikes in a White Scars army for example.

 

It's not perfect but I get the intent of trying to make it easier to break units up into smaller groups so they could lean into flavoring the legions without needing special rules or messing with changing what slots certain units are in, even if I think they have some missed opportunities around the Prime Slot aspect of the system and how the legions could stand to be flavored a bit harder than taking detachments that pass out extra slots that fit the legion's way of organizing. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Nothing more narrative than needing two line captains to take four squads of five terminators

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

5 hours ago, Brofist said:

So.... how about the tags they started adding that do nothing on various unit entries?

Well,maybe now are useless but it's early to know. Perhaps,in a near future some will do something.

 

BTW, I was thinking something about Istvaan V supplement. If I recall correctly, the Master of Descent had no "make-your-own" suggestion, like the other two new units. Do you think it's a clear indication of a new official miniature, coming "soon"?

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Nothing more narrative than needing two line captains to take four squads of five terminators

One Centurion lets you take 2 additional auxillery detachments in addition to the one apex or aux detachment they unlock by filling a command slot. So with just one model you can bring 6 units of Terminators.

[Shard of Magnus]

2 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

One Centurion lets you take 2 additional auxillery detachments in addition to the one apex or aux detachment they unlock by filling a command slot. So with just one model you can bring 6 units of Terminators.

That is…not correct. Centurions let you take two aux, instead of one that a consul type would unlock.  One prime slot per detachment can be used for logistical advantage.  Apex requires high command slot to be filled.

[MagicHat]

I love that they finally started adding traits. 

 

IF Fire Discipline gives +1 to hit for Bolt and Auto weapons? What is an Auto or bolt weapon, well look at the weapon traits and they will tell you.

 

Want to use a certain Reaction, well the unit needs those traits to trigger.

 

And best of all, it is futureproof, so any future bolt, auto, Shield, or smokescreen releases wont need an errata to the current rules to include the future releases.

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Nothing more narrative than needing two line captains to take four squads of five terminators

Or, from another point of view, a Senior Lieutenant (Centurion) let’s you take up to 40 Terminators (2 detachments of 2 full squads each); almost a half company.

Edited yesterday at 01:43 AM by jaxom
More details

[BitsHammer]

2 hours ago, Shard of Magnus said:

That is…not correct. Centurions let you take two aux, instead of one that a consul type would unlock.  One prime slot per detachment can be used for logistical advantage.  Apex requires high command slot to be filled.

You are right. I missed the "instead of just one" bit. That's on me. Point stands: you don't need 2 officers to get two detachments worth of Terminators. Just one Centurion does the trick.

 

This would be a lot easier to reference and error check if GW had just released an app.

[Shard of Magnus]

I’m (im)patiently waiting for everything to be working in New Recruit.  But likely going to end up making pretty detach/unit cards for what I have available regardless; sort of like old epic card system. There are so many ways to build lists now that I’m not sure an app is going to be most effective for me.  The card system is like an old glove with how much epic I once played.

 

To focus on the reply to Marshal Rohr - yes, a single centurion in the primary detachment will enable 4 units of terminators, and have option to logistical benefit something else.  Now…it does depend what types of terminators are wanted as some are heavy assault and some are retinue. Won’t be able to mix and match those very effectively with a single centurion. It also doesn’t provide an option for any transports as that would require a 3rd aux detachment for armored fist; unless the logistical benefit is used to pick up a single transport.

 

One can field 60 cataphractii (50 tartaros) with a single centurion if walking is okay.  A praetor with combat retinue + logistical benefit could field 4 retinues of 10-12 terminators. Not quite what pride of legion could match for maximum raw numbers (95?).  And again missing the dedicated transport options.

Edited yesterday at 01:11 AM by Shard of Magnus
Fixing typing errors

[Marshal Rohr]

The Optae is the Lieutenant profile, the Centurion is the line Captain profile. You can game it if you want, but it’s not a Lieutenant Profile. There’s a substantial difference between lieutenants and line captains now. 

[Bung]

14 hours ago, Brofist said:

I'd argue they're confusing- if they don't actually do anything they shouldn't be included. Is this trait intentionally pointless, or is it a missing rule? Impossible to know anymore.

 

They do already.

The Shield Trait gives you access to the Shieldwall Reaction from the SM Libers.

You gain that trait with Boarding Shields and some others like the IF Stormshield, or some Squads like the Salamanders Terminators have it.

[jaxom]

7 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The Optae is the Lieutenant profile

Optae is a Liesutant profile, but not the lieatuent profile; that’s why I specified Senior Lieutenant.
 

Optae’s description states it is a “lower-ranking warrior” with a “brevet command” and  sometimes called lieutenant. I think someone on the board called them field-promoted Veteran Sergeants? Hence, Junior Lieutenant.

 

Centurion description states it includes “a shield-lieutenant given charge of a boarding party.” Hence, Senior Lieutenant. 

[BitsHammer]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

Optae is a Liesutant profile, but not the lieatuent profile; that’s why I specified Senior Lieutenant.
 

Optae’s description states it is a “lower-ranking warrior” with a “brevet command” and  sometimes called lieutenant. I think someone on the board called them field-promoted Veteran Sergeants? Hence, Junior Lieutenant.

 

Centurion description states it includes “a shield-lieutenant given charge of a boarding party.” Hence, Senior Lieutenant. 

That description makes me think the Optae is a butter bar, while the Centurion is a 1st LT in modern military parlance.

Edited yesterday at 01:49 PM by BitsHammer

[jaxom]

46 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

That description makes me think the Optae is a butter bar, while the Centurion is a 1st LT in modern military parlance.

Sounds about right. Terminators would definitely be a special formation; makes sense to be led by a 1st LT equivalent. The BB describes the smallest strategic unit in the Principia as two Tactical Squads and a Support Squad, led by a lieutenant, presumably the bog standard butter bar equivalent.

Perhaps it’d be more appropriate to go with:

- Chapter Master - Praetor with Paragon of War
- Commander - Praetor
- Captain - Centurion with Paragon of War
- 1st LT/JG Captain - Centurion

- 2nd LT/Brevet LT - Optae

[Loishy]

If we refer to the previous organization of the astartes legions, the centurion is the equivalent of a Captain with a hundred astartes under is commad :  



So personally I would go with 

- Chapter Master (10 companies under is command) - Praetor 
- Commander (5 companies under is command forming a Battalion) - Centurion with Paragon of War
- Captain (1 company under is command with 3 lieutenants) - Centurion
- Lieutenant  (3 squads under is command) - Optae

And a Praetor with Paragon of War would then be the Chapter Master designed to lead several other chapter master in a fleet in which the Primach is not present.

But I suppose that a centurion from a line company (companies II, III, and IV) cannot easily demand a large number of terminators from company I. That's why I'm not surprised that a centurion only gives access to a maximum of 4 terminator squads in 3.0.

[Khulu]

Is there any way to give a Praetor Paragon of Battle? If so, how?

[jaxom]

50 minutes ago, Loishy said:

If we refer to the previous organization of the astartes legions, the centurion is the equivalent of a Captain with a hundred astartes under is commad

I dunno, Optae states it is a brevet LT rank and that makes me think a proper TOB Lieutenant should be represented using the Centurion stat block. On the other hand, Optae also states it covers Dominars; an LT equivalent title in the TOB. I guess at the end of the day it’s less about rank and more about the character one is trying to portray with their Fancy Little Plastic Dude? A brand new Optae LT leading Inductae compared to a grizzled Praetor LT leading Veterans (for example Shattered Legions because who’s promoting people?), etc.

[Gorgoff]

I've finally found a way to write an army list without going crazy.

It's not done yet but I am on my way.

[jaxom]

Some sort of drag-and-drop GUI makes a lot of sense!

[Marshal Loss]

3 hours ago, Khulu said:

Is there any way to give a Praetor Paragon of Battle? If so, how?

 

Emperor's Children can do it with the Brotherhood of the Phoenix detachment

[Irate Khornate]

On 8/12/2025 at 8:49 AM, BitsHammer said:

That description makes me think the Optae is a butter bar, while the Centurion is a 1st LT in modern military parlance.

A corp where all the officers are mustangs? Oh yes. 

[Irate Khornate]

22 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

I've finally found a way to write an army list without going crazy.

It's not done yet but I am on my way.

Oh hey, an evidence board!