Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[SvenIronhand]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Ooof, that’s straight trash. RIP the thing that made Heresy more fun than 40K decrapments and strategems. 

Pretty sure it’s one of several traits, since Tactica is plural.

[Irate Khornate]

Another swing and a miss for me. 

[Marshal Rohr]

31 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

Pretty sure it’s one of several traits, since Tactica is plural.

No dude, all that stuff that came with the Rites are not getting rolled into one big blob of rules. Ironfire, Vigil Opertii, Armored Breakthrough, all that stuff is dead and gone. I thought the FOC change was going to bad and this confirms it. Spade Wolves might get a cool charge or Raven Guard might get a crappy gambit and they think that covers it, but Rites were what gave the armies flavor. Changing the Force Org and getting Bonuses. 

[BitsHammer]

Honestly these are the kinds of articles I despise the most. It's just enough info to go "well things changed" but not enough to see the full picture. Like how many detachments are each legion getting? Is it the same number or are some legions going to get more than others? I get that they are fully committed to "teasers" but if you just tease a dog you just make them worked up and upset. Likewise constantly teasing the community with incomplete information without a pay off is just creating negative feelings.

[TheTrans]

Plonked this on FB but I generally find convesations are generally a bit more reasonable over here! 

So spotted the new Space Wolves 'Tactica'... and like, wow... it looks pretty anemic, so though I better go back and look at what 1 and two looked like in regards to Legion Traits etc for the Wolves.. and god damn, if GW keeps thinning stuff out at this rate, their trait..sorry..tactica... in the next edition will be 'paint them grey and stick a wolf helmet on them'

So, just going off of wolves, just as we know their trait.

So in 1.0 we had the following for Wolves overall rules.

Legiones Astartes (Space Wolves)
Legiones Astartes: Can Always Regroup
Bestial Savagery: +1 WS when they charge. Gain Counter attack, must always Sweeping advance if able
Hunter's Gait: +1" to Run and Consolidation moves if not equipped with TDA and Jump Pack.
Preternatural Senses: Ignore Night Fight, Can re-roll which board edge they come on with Outflank. No Infiltrators within 18"

Specific Build Requirements:
-Compulsory HQ must be a Praetor or Cent
-1 HQ per 1000 points, allowing it to go over normal force org.
-Primus Medicae, Chaplain and Librarian replaced with the Priest of Fenris.
-Grey Slaers must be your Compulsory Troop Choices

6 Different Warlord Traits
-The Get of the Wyrm
-The Howl of the Death Wolf
-The Hunger of the Void
-The Waster of the Land
-The Crown Breaker
-The Shield of the Wolf King

2 ROWS:
The Pale Hunters
- The Circling Wolves: +1 to Reserve Rolls
- Bleed & Harry: All non TDA infantry gain Hit & Run, roll 2d6 instead of 3d6 for it.
- The Fury of the Pack: If charge an already engaged unit, +1 attack per charging model.

Limitations:
-No Artillery, Fortifications or Drop Pods
-Only a Single HS Slot

The Bloodied Claws
-Oath of the Bloodied Claw: All Grey Slayers and Assault squads gain Furious Charge, but must charge a unit if able
-Overwhelming Assault: +1 to combat res in enemy deployment
-Gains the Howls of the Death Wolf Rules from Warlord Traits (All run and charges can be re-rolled for a turn, one per game)

Limitations:
-No Immobile, Artillery or Slow and Purposeful Units
-May not take an Allied Space Marine Detachment

Equipment and Wargear
-Frost Weapons
-Fenrisian Wolves 
-Aetherune Armour

Units
-Deathsworn
-Varagyr Wolf Guard Terminators 
-Grey Slayer pack
-Geigor Fell-Hand
-Hvarl Red-Blade
-Speaker
-Wolf Priest
-Leman Russ
-Freki and Geri

2.0
Legion Trait:
Bestial Savagry: Run and Shoot and Charge. Or +1 WS if Can't Run When Charging/Charged. Vehicle Ram Attacks +1S.

Specific Build Requirements:

None

3 Different Warlord Traits
-Howl of Morkai
-Hunger of the Void
-Crown Breaker

3 ROWS:
Black Watch
-Hatred (Traitor), PE (Primarch)
-Fearless when getting stomped by Primarch
-+2" When Charging A Primarch
Limitations:
- Only Allied
- No Vehicles or Primarch
- Loyalist Only

The Pale Hunters:
-Special Hit & Run
-Fleet (2), Rage (2) When Flanking Assualt
-Up to 3 Inf or Cav gain Outfalnk for free
Limitations
-Single HS Choice
-At least one unit must be Flanking Assault

The Bloodied Claw:
-Once Per game +1 to combat res. Fleet (2), Furious Charge (1), Stubborn, or upgrade from Stubborn to Fearless.
Limitations
-When Kicking off the One Per Game benefit, must charge if able. 

Equipment and Wargear
-Fenrisian Axe
-Frost Weapons
-Aether Rune Armour

Units
-Jarl Praetor Upgrade
-Consuls: Pack Thegn, Speaker, Caster
-Deathsworn
-Varagyr Wolf Guard Terminators 
-Grey Slayer pack
-Grey Hunter pack
-Geigor Fell-Hand
-Hvarl Red-Blade
-Leman Russ
-Freki and Geri

3.0 (only going off what we know, but lets try and not glug too much cope, or spill too much salt!).
Space Wolves 'Rite of War'
Legion Tactica: +2" to 'charge setup'.
Gambit: 1 I imagine
Warlord Trait: 3.. maybe?
Detachments: Who knows, but presume it, much like the new 'FoC' will allow you to take more SP special units or something with no downsides.
Wargear: Probably the Same given they have models.
Units: Same, given they all have models

So, like... as much as people will want to reee and say that 30k isn't going the way of 40k... like I think there is a clear direction of rules thinning and removal of restrictions.

I get it seems a lot of the player base is very restriction adverse for whatever reason, but I feel restrictions generally helped players at least be guided into the vibe of a legion. Like with list building in 3.0 we're really not far off just 'take whatever you want'... like a 60 point Cent 'tax' at 3k is a drop in the bucket... 

But yeah, thougths on the constant degradation of flavour and abilities?
 

[Marshal Loss]

24 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Honestly these are the kinds of articles I despise the most. It's just enough info to go "well things changed" but not enough to see the full picture. Like how many detachments are each legion getting? Is it the same number or are some legions going to get more than others? I get that they are fully committed to "teasers" but if you just tease a dog you just make them worked up and upset. Likewise constantly teasing the community with incomplete information without a pay off is just creating negative feelings.

 

Yeah I don't understand why they couldn't at least give each loyalist legion something in the article. One gets their legion trait, one gets their legion gambit, one gets their legion reaction, and two other legions get mentioned in the text (one twice). The standout unit is a Centurion which is loyalist/traitor agnostic. Four of the nine loyalist legions get nothing at all, including the edition's posterchild. I don't want to hear a playtester rattle through a number of ad hoc examples, I want to get a glimpse at what has changed for each of the individual legions. 

 

I guess hopefully the EC are one of the lucky few that get something shown in the traitor article, otherwise I'l have to wait until the 12th to get any idea of what's changed for them. 

Edited July 1 by Marshal Loss

[Nephaston]

yeah, not gonna form a thought about these until I get to see the full book. Can't actually smell what they're cooking when I'm glimpsing at them from two blocks away with a blurry phone camera zoom.

[Irate Khornate]

5 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

Honestly these are the kinds of articles I despise the most. It's just enough info to go "well things changed" but not enough to see the full picture. Like how many detachments are each legion getting? Is it the same number or are some legions going to get more than others? I get that they are fully committed to "teasers" but if you just tease a dog you just make them worked up and upset. Likewise constantly teasing the community with incomplete information without a pay off is just creating negative feelings.

I hate to say it but in this particular instance it's probably better that they tease it out like this. If everything released so far had dropped en masse I believe it would have had a lot of the community foaming at the mouth  because they outright lied to us at the beginning.

 

This at least gave people time to get acclimated to the changes that were coming instead of dropping them into the freezing water immediately. 

[Irate Khornate]

3 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

Snip

 

I'm watching the possibility of my passion project World Eaters getting rug pulled for the second time by the same company.

 

It's really not a good feeling and generally is the reason for my dislike of the coming edition. First time shame on you, second time shame on me.

[BitsHammer]

11 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

I hate to say it but in this particular instance it's probably better that they tease it out like this. If everything released so far had dropped en masse I believe it would have had a lot of the community foaming at the mouth  because they outright lied to us at the beginning.

 

This at least gave people time to get acclimated to the changes that were coming instead of dropping them into the freezing water immediately. 

I'd much rather they just rip the bandage off so I can see the full image. I already don't have much hope for Jadhek Clan Night Lords getting any love, so now I just want to know how things work so I can make real plans.

[TheTrans]

16 minutes ago, BitsHammer said:

I'd much rather they just rip the bandage off so I can see the full image. I already don't have much hope for Jadhek Clan Night Lords getting any love, so now I just want to know how things work so I can make real plans.

They don't want that, I feel they want to edge everyone along and force some impulse purchases/pre-orders before we know what rules and traits etc look like. 

[BitsHammer]

46 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

They don't want that, I feel they want to edge everyone along and force some impulse purchases/pre-orders before we know what rules and traits etc look like. 

Oh I still plan on getting the box and the Liber, but I want to know what I'll be doing with them to make an effective Night Lords army, not go in blind.

 

I just hope Night Lords keep their rule about outnumbering stuff over a fear effect being their core mechanic. Both are very Night Lords, but I'd rather they baked fear in elsewhere like as a wargear option as before.

[Captain Idaho]

I'll more than happily criticise GW when they do wrong (you may have noticed) and things like the weapons for the Saturnine Dreadnought are one example... but I don't have any issues with the rules as shown so far for the Legions. It's likely every Legion is getting one of each of the examples.

 

Maybe not, but there's surely other stuff under the hood.

 

Too early just yet, though we could be concerned that things are being limited of course.

[beefeb]

I find it puzzling....this process of leaks and teases is supposed to generate enthusiasm for a new release....but from what Im seeing of the dumbed down ruleset its actually turning me totally off it.  I dont play much, being more of a collector, but tbh I think Ill likely stick with previous ruleset if this is indeed indicative of a dumbed down game.  For those who like it i say...good, glad you do, each to their own.  

 

Ill probably just skip the whole thing tbh.  Besides....the new models dont really fit the aesthetic of my existing collections (Ultramarines and Wolves) anyway, so its a good excuse to save the money.

[Gorgoff]

31 minutes ago, beefeb said:

I find it puzzling....this process of leaks and teases is supposed to generate enthusiasm for a new release....but from what Im seeing of the dumbed down ruleset its actually turning me totally off it.  I dont play much, being more of a collector, but tbh I think Ill likely stick with previous ruleset if this is indeed indicative of a dumbed down game.  For those who like it i say...good, glad you do, each to their own.  

 

Ill probably just skip the whole thing tbh.  Besides....the new models dont really fit the aesthetic of my existing collections (Ultramarines and Wolves) anyway, so its a good excuse to save the money.

In that case I'd stick to first edition tbh. No :cuss:ty reactions, writing dtyle of the rules was way better, legions had way more flavorful rules. 

2ed felt like a first try of a adding reactions and GW failed as usual when they introduce new mechanics. 

Even more units available for everybody. SA, Militia and Daemons way more playable as well. 

Plus we could play against the 7th edition codices if we wanted to we have full rules for Skitarii, Imperial Guard aka Imperial Army and so on. 

I liked 2ed mainly for adding individual movement values and some legions straight up played better but generally speaking I don't see a reason to stay with 2ed if 3ed turns out to be crap. 

[Astartes Consul]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'll more than happily criticise GW when they do wrong (you may have noticed) and things like the weapons for the Saturnine Dreadnought are one example... but I don't have any issues with the rules as shown so far for the Legions. It's likely every Legion is getting one of each of the examples.

 

Maybe not, but there's surely other stuff under the hood.

 

Too early just yet, though we could be concerned that things are being limited of course.

 

It certainly seems like this edition is relying very heavily on the new Force Org / Army Composition mechanics...so I'm going to reserve my cynicism about Legion-specific rules until we see those.

[Joe]

15 hours ago, Nephaston said:

 

More like, in your case:

• Liber Astartes
• Liber Hereticus
• Journal: Thramas Crusade (perhaps multipart)
• Journal: Dropsite Massacre  (definitely multipart)
• Journal: Siege of Cthonia
• Journal: Battle of Isstvan III
• Journal: Battle of Beta-Garmon
• Journal: Siege of Terra (definitely multipart)
• Journal: Battle of Trisolian
• Journal: Battle of Perditus
• Journal: Battle of Zepath
• Journal: Battle of Molech

probably a dozen more.

 

The article says the will be coming "thick and fast", does that mean quarterly? or are they gonna burn everyone out with bi-monthly(every second month) or even monthly journals?

 

This is assuming I'd want any of that lol. Unless there's some super cool and unique unit in a given journal that I want to include then I can easily pass on the examples listed there.

[Gorgoff]

13 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

This is assuming I'd want any of that lol. Unless there's some super cool and unique unit in a given journal that I want to include then I can easily pass on the examples listed there.

I am sure they'll put something for everyone in every journal to mske them interesting. At least the campaign things. 

[Wibbling]

8 hours ago, Irate Khornate said:

It's really not a good feeling and generally is the reason for my dislike of the coming edition. First time shame on you, second time shame on me.

 

Then don't buy it. Don't play it. Let it pass you buy. Find other players who want to stick with 2nd. You're not forced to. It's a game. Not law. 

[Nephaston]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

 

This is assuming I'd want any of that lol. Unless there's some super cool and unique unit in a given journal that I want to include then I can easily pass on the examples listed there.

Lmao yeah. At least judging by this first journal it's gonna be units vaguely relevant to the theater of war, so a drop pod commander, a reaction improving squad, the missile rhino as well as an interdiction prime benefit. The commander, judging by the snapshots of the initial reveal, makes deep strikes better with a strato-vox, so only really interesting for players with a preference for deep striking units. The Hyperios will appeal to your rocket and vehicle enthusiasts, but probably less to "only infantry" players. The Command and Control Squad however can make reactions cheaper, which is probably interesting for just about anyone.

 

Hard to make out a trend with only one example but I wouldn't be surprised to see these quarterly at the slowest, with three units of various kitbashibility, and at least one of them with almost universal appeal. And the idea of officially sanctioned kitbashes is still hilarious to me, though I do welcome it.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Also, lets not forget about the age old workaround to some of these issues: having friends.

Not everyone needs to have everything. As long as someone in the crew has it, everyone has it. We’ve been photocopying/printing “I just need these 4 pages” out of game books of all kinds for 30 years, and it’s even easier now that pdfs are so good.

 

[Lord Marshal]

Traitor Legion Preview. Also confirms Night Fighting is gone for the Core missions.

 

Quote

As the course of the Heresy progresses, the Loyalists and Traitors start to diverge in tactics and even troops. The Emperor's Children and World Eaters are the first to see big changes, and they both get two Rites of War each: one representing their forces in the earlier years of the Heresy and another representing their corrupted incarnations as the civil war draws to a close. 

 

Remember to shadow box every time your World Eaters fail a Leadership Check:

 

 

And the teases of teases regarding unit rules:

 

Quote

My favourite Unit so far is the Thousand Sons Saturnine Dreadnought and taking one of these with the Pavoni Prosperine Arcana is great. At the cost of a Reaction Point, you can use the Stoneform Psychic Reaction to give the model +2 Toughness for the remainder of the Shooting sub-phase, making it a mighty Toughness 10. Add to that its thermal diffraction field and you have even lascannon and multi-meltas wounding it on 6s. This is great until Perils of the Warp inevitably removes its last wound and it explodes… but at least it goes out doing what it loves: channeling uncontrollable amounts of Warp energy.

Quote

Next I’d have to go with Ashen Circle from the Word Bearers, whose role on the battlefield is clearer than ever before. This unit steers hard into the new Tactical Statuses, with their Akkadic Hand Flamers causing Panic (2), hitting opponents with the Routed condition even before you charge them – almost guaranteeing you Victory Points from their Vanguard (3) Special Rule if the enemy is on an Objective. Their Axe-Rakes are nothing to turn your nose up at either: Phage (M) hamstrings enemy units you wound for the rest of the game!

 

Edited July 1 by Lord Marshal

[Nephaston]

WE and EC doubling up on rites for falling to corruption, Pert having challengers gunned down, NL tactical routing themselves, TS wizard Saturnine dreads, and WB ashen circle jumping around torching stuff.

 

Interesting, but I need...

[roryokane]

Is it just me or did the Traitor article actually  give a bit of flavour, some of which was… good?

[Mmmmm Napalm]

this journal tactica format makes me think we're losing the lengthy, in-universe-history campaign books like the Black Books, Siege of Cthonia, etc. I know they'll have some fluff but at just 50 or so pages. i doubt there will be much room for setting stuff that the old stuff was chock-full of. unfortunate.