Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Ironwrought Huw]

12 minutes ago, No Foes Remain said:

Gorgon Termies don't even have ranged weapons. Great editing GW.

 

I'm willing to be corrected, but it also looks like the Iron Hands praetor model isn't completely legal under the new rules either (a model released, what, 4 months ago?). Powerfist: fine. Gravitron pistol: still an IH only upgrade to plasma pistol, fine. Machinator array - I don't see how/where that can be selected... 

 

Interesting to see that the Iron Father is now a unique unit in its own right, rather than an upgrade to a Praetor. Sadly it looks to be exclusively based on the older cataphractii terminator Iron Father mini, so RIP to any kitbashes that people (and I obsessively) made.  

 

Meduson appears to have gone to college: he can now actually repair things with the servo-arm he bizarrely obtained in 2nd edition. 

 

 

I await the 3rd Edition Legacies PDF with interest.

 

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I absolutely detest it when normal wargear options suddenly disappear but I can understand some niche for Veteran Tactical Squad, they get BS5 and some different wargear options while losing melee and snipers, hopefully it does differentiate them from Recon/Seeker. This unit is basically the old Mk3/Mk4 tactical kits (bolters +2 special weapons).

 

But of course it is a completely different squad than what many of use have built, i.e. mostly melee-centric veterans. Veteran assault sounds fine but wish there was some melee-oriented veterans squad without jump packs (maybe there is a veteran command squad or something?)

 

Though ... why are chainsword gone for veterans tactical?  The Mk3s from (burning of prospero) had nice chainswords to put on their backs, but guess what, they are no longer sold... and Mk4s (from Betrayal at calth) , still being sold, only have combat knives, so these are still available as bayonets.., Hilarious

 

 

[No Foes Remain]

4 minutes ago, Lautrec the Embraced said:

I absolutely detest it when normal wargear options suddenly disappear but I can understand some niche for Veteran Tactical Squad, they get BS5 and some different wargear options while losing melee and snipers, hopefully it does differentiate them from Recon/Seeker. This unit is basically the old Mk3/Mk4 tactical kits (bolters +2 special weapons).

 

But of course it is a completely different squad than what many of use have built, i.e. mostly melee-centric veterans. Veteran assault sounds fine but wish there was some melee-oriented veterans squad without jump packs (maybe there is a veteran command squad or something?)

 

Though ... why are chainsword gone for veterans tactical?  The Mk3s from (burning of prospero) had nice chainswords to put on their backs, but guess what, they are no longer sold... and Mk4s (from Betrayal at calth) , still being sold, only have combat knives, so these are still available as bayonets.., Hilarious

 

 

It's gonna be even more annoying if basic Tatical Marines and Tactical Support Squads keep the chainsword options but the Veteran squad looses them.

[torcathmk2]

32 minutes ago, firestorm40k said:

According to these leaks, unless he's forgotten to get a picture, Fafnir Rann (who has a model) doesn't have a profile, but Camba Diaz (who doesn't have a model) does 

 

No doubt because GW will make people who want to run Fafnir buy yet more books - after paying almost £100 for their new rulebook and Liber - to get his rules 

He does, if you scroll down far enough you'll see his entry is mixed in amongst the White Scars pages

[firestorm40k]

1 minute ago, torcathmk2 said:

He does, if you scroll down far enough you'll see his entry is mixed in amongst the White Scars pages

Brilliant, thank you!  Silly me foolishly thought he'd be with the rest of the Imperial Fists 

[Marshal Rohr]

Fists lost assault cannons for everything except the Castellan and Decurion, but for some [redacted] reason the Blood Angels kept them. Absolute clown show. The Assault Cannons are still for sale right now for Fists. 

[CommissarTigh]

18 minutes ago, torcathmk2 said:

He does, if you scroll down far enough you'll see his entry is mixed in amongst the White Scars pages

Hi guys, I cant find WS pages, can you help me plz?

[Joe]

Haven't quite had the time to process everything yet, however I'd be lying if I said I wasn't thoroughly deflated after seeing some of these leaks.

 

The limiting of wargear options is antithetical to the Horus Heresy and wider Specialist Games systems, the outright removal of units with models is just plain bizarre, White Scars not receiving an option to convey Line to bike units is frankly absurd, and in broader terms the design of certain unit profiles special rules or stat lines just being plain anaemic is nonsensical.

 

This is a poor look for the company, and frankly an even poorer look for the design team at this stage for going along with what is (presumably) an order from on high. I'd be ashamed if I worked on this project.

 

As far as Destroyers go, I imagine they've been removed pending the plastic Mark IV update - only to be re-sold to us in a journal later on.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

8 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

We'll see if my terror marines keep their chain gun and chain blade options. My inductii with the murderers blades

I think worst case chain blades becomes chain swords, or the rotor-cannon squad is demoted to just a tactical support squad. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about terror marines, I think I'd worry about Raptors - they have a rather fixed loadout on their official models, just one glaive, no claws etc

 

... are there even any legion-specific warlord traits in the leaks? I can't seem to find any, and characters don't mention it either...? Have i missed somethin and we're done with warlords or am I blind?

Edited July 10 by Lautrec the Embraced

[Nephaston]

3 minutes ago, Lautrec the Embraced said:

... are there even any legion-specific warlord traits in the leaks? I can't seem to find any, and characters don't mention it either...? Have i missed somethin and we're done with warlords or am I blind?

This is prime benefit and gambits country, leave your warlords at the border.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

11 hours ago, Astartes Consul said:

 

It wasn't amazing, though they did update it. Considering that they have said that they'll allow its use in WHW/Official tournaments and events, I suspect it will be more balanced this time.

 

Also, as has been pretty obvious since the first preview event, the Journals will be introducing new units and variants of units on a more regular basis than we had previously. So maybe we'll get some of the missing and/or legacy units there?

 

 

Since this, roughly... 

 

 

 

Wrong. Jump Packs and Antigrav are two completely different techs especially in 2nd 40K. So the joke is on you.  My point still stands: Interns have been put to the task for that book.

[Marshal Loss]

Somebody leak the Liber Hereticus and put me out of my misery already. 

[Stitch5000]

6 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

My point still stands: Interns have been put to the task for that book.

It would still stand if GW hired interns (which they don;t). 

[Nephaston]

6 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

Wrong. Jump Packs and Antigrav are two completely different techs especially in 2nd 40K. So the joke is on you.  My point still stands: Interns have been put to the task for that book.

I mean, jump packs also very much counteract gravity. Granted, they do this mechanically very different, but having two different rules doing the same thing but called different because the name is somewhat specific, would also not look good.

It's kind of like having the twin linked rule for a single barrelled gun for the purposes of showing how precise it is. Technically not the right term, but not worth having a "Accurate" rule that does the same thing.

[Astartes Consul]

Ultimately, Heresy is still far more customisable than 40k. But, when 2.0 came out, I think there was a broad acceptance within the community that losing some of the more esoteric units that had no models, as well as units that had gone OOP, to the Legacies PDF was essentially the price the game paid for its continued support and the massive refresh in terms of new plastic and resin kits. I had hoped that, despite the way 40k has evolved, the game would retain the slightly more old-school ethos of encouraging conversions, customisation and variety within the rules. The way Legion-specific units have been gutted in 3.0 is, therefore, incredibly disappointing.

 

I HOPE that there is some correction to this, as PDFs, Journals and new kits are released. But it seems like that hope will be tied entirely to when / if Legion-specific units start getting new kits.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Joe said:

Haven't quite had the time to process everything yet, however I'd be lying if I said I wasn't thoroughly deflated after seeing some of these leaks.

 

The limiting of wargear options is antithetical to the Horus Heresy and wider Specialist Games systems, the outright removal of units with models is just plain bizarre, White Scars not receiving an option to convey Line to bike units is frankly absurd, and in broader terms the design of certain unit profiles special rules or stat lines just being plain anaemic is nonsensical.

 

This is a poor look for the company, and frankly an even poorer look for the design team at this stage for going along with what is (presumably) an order from on high. I'd be ashamed if I worked on this project.

 

As far as Destroyers go, I imagine they've been removed pending the plastic Mark IV update - only to be re-sold to us in a journal later on.

 

Mirroring my thoughts, although I suspect the Design Team don't really have a choice after a certain point when it comes to 'going along' with the dictates of senior management. However, there are decisions within the rules that seem unnecessarily limiting and have nothing to do with wargear options. The White Scars example you mention is one.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

21 minutes ago, Marshal Loss said:

Somebody leak the Liber Hereticus and put me out of my misery already. 

Do you really need it, you already know what will happen now. Better start popping those arms off and finding your charnabal Sabres. 

15 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

Ultimately, Heresy is still far more customisable than 40k. But, when 2.0 came out, I think there was a broad acceptance within the community that losing some of the more esoteric units that had no models, as well as units that had gone OOP, to the Legacies PDF was essentially the price the game paid for its continued support and the massive refresh in terms of new plastic and resin kits. I had hoped that, despite the way 40k has evolved, the game would retain the slightly more old-school ethos of encouraging conversions, customisation and variety within the rules. The way Legion-specific units have been gutted in 3.0 is, therefore, incredibly disappointing.

 

I HOPE that there is some correction to this, as PDFs, Journals and new kits are released. But it seems like that hope will be tied entirely to when / if Legion-specific units start getting new kits.

 

 

 

Mirroring my thoughts, although I suspect the Design Team don't really have a choice after a certain point when it comes to 'going along' with the dictates of senior management. However, there are decisions within the rules that seem unnecessarily limiting and have nothing to do with wargear options. The White Scars example you mention is one.

 

Why did senior management make Heresy lose all their options, but Old World and Necromunda are as varied as ever?

[Astartes Consul]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Why did senior management make Heresy lose all their options, but Old World and Necromunda are as varied as ever?

 

Because it's a 'Core Game' now? Because Necromunda's low model count means that you can make a profit selling upgrade kits more easily? Because Old World essentially wouldn't work - as its success is based on getting players to dust off their old armies - if you fundamentally changed unit selection from the get-go?

 

I suspect that the first of these is the main driver. A sales and performance tracking driven decision to have all Core games operate roughly in this way.

[Brofist]

Read through all the leaks and been following the community all day. General response everywhere right now seems to be largely negative. Wargear options are gutted across the board, lots of invalidated or missing units, limited ways to modify the new force org, and critically, a big loss of flavor. For example, the much toted advanced characteristics are all identical for the Primarchs, begging the question why introduce something you won't even lean into. The power level has also been brought down across the board, which is whatever as everyone is feeling it, but given the other things there's a lot of bad feels right now. We all know the legacy .pdf is where things go to die.

 

I generally liked what I saw in the core rules, but the test is always in what gets done with balance in the army lists. Its hard to talk about overall balance right now, but pushing everything into a 'rules must reflect the kit and no extras' space seems to finally have had the expected, dire, consequences on the overall direction of the game. This, the expected lack of support, and three year treadmill are tough to stomach right now.

 

Today's GW just seems incapable of reproducing anything as authentic and interesting as their earlier editions. Design from a corporate boardroom is here at last. What a disappointment this is shaping up to be!

[Marshal Rohr]

3 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

 

Because it's a 'Core Game' now? Because Necromunda's low model count means that you can make a profit selling upgrade kits more easily? Because Old World essentially wouldn't work - as its success is based on getting players to dust off their old armies - if you fundamentally changed unit selection from the get-go?

 

I suspect that the first of these is the main driver. A sales and performance tracking driven decision to have all Core games operate roughly in this way.

You would make more profit from a “core game” by sticking combi-weapons and Volkites in breacher squads because everyone has to go buy a tactical box, the Breacher upgrade box, and a special weapons box to use those or simply stick to the options in the Breacher kit which is still and upgrade to the tactical box. 
 

Money can’t be the explanation, because more options always equals more purchases by the majority of players not far enough down the funnel to get into printing and if they print, they’re not GW customers anyway. 
 

The logical explanation that makes the most sense is it was hard to balance. The interplay between legion unique rules and regular wargear was creating extremely lethal combos with the new damage system, so they picked an achievable target to meet for development (rule for only what comes in the resin kits) and stripped out everything else and now people are getting it right up the tailpipe for putting meltaguns in the special Breacher units, or taking swords on dawnbreakers, or hammers on Varagyr. 

 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Fists lost assault cannons for everything except the Castellan and Decurion, but for some [redacted] reason the Blood Angels kept them.  

 

Signature look of superiority

 

[Brofist]

The logical explanation is that an exec said this is what must be done, so here we are.

[Joe]

39 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

Mirroring my thoughts, although I suspect the Design Team don't really have a choice after a certain point when it comes to 'going along' with the dictates of senior management. However, there are decisions within the rules that seem unnecessarily limiting and have nothing to do with wargear options. The White Scars example you mention is one.

 

It's definitely an odd one. I've left jobs in the past over disagreements with policy changes (sub-contracted for the DWP working the benefits helplines), although that isn't a practical solution for everyone.

[Marshal Loss]

25 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Do you really need it, you already know what will happen now. Better start popping those arms off and finding your charnabal Sabres. 

 

With 2x Legion traits, I get twice the chance to be disappointed than anybody that's not a WE fan. Can't pass up that sort of excitement 

[Pearson73]

The lack of customisation on legion units is really daft. Really not looking forward to removing volkites from all my Immortals.

[SvenIronhand]

I'm not weeping too much over lost wargear options; I'm just starting out and getting my army together. That said, I have sympathy for everyone who lost out.