Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Corswain]

13 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Well, I'm glad I didn't take the plunge on HH now. Sweet Emperor, what a mess. The worst part being either sales will tank and GW will go "Gee, seems people don't like HH after all!" and can the whole thing, or sales will continue and GW will assume people want more of nu40K's dreck to turn the rest of their games into slop.

 

I've been doing Heresy since Angron was released and don't regret getting into it for a second but I am a collector and hobbyist first and gamer distantly last so bad rules are no real issue for me.

 

Definitely vote with your wallet though. I've worked in a large retail company for 20 years and the best way to get them to course-correct is sales data. 

Personally, I will continue to buy models but I will skip the rulebooks at this stage. 

[Irate Khornate]

20 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

Nearly all the Traitor Legions are leaked at this point.

 

And its safe to say nearly all the panic and issues were Loyalist specific.

 

Traitors kept most of their wargear options, gained in places, got more rules, more balanced prices and more fluff. 

 

TSons have 4 pages for each cult plus a Khenetai Jedi Page. 

 

WE have better Caedere weapons and two rites of war (base and heretic).

 

Those with limited wargear or lost something gained something else, including a large uptick in combi-weapons.

 

Its not even op or unbalanced internally to my eye, just mass improvements.

 

I mostly play Traitor so I am laughing, but this is weird.

 

Honestly, I cannot speak to what management was thinking greenlighting the Loyalist book.

Where are you seeing the WE rules?

[Astartes Consul]

35 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

Nearly all the Traitor Legions are leaked at this point.

 

And its safe to say nearly all the panic and issues were Loyalist specific.

 

Traitors kept most of their wargear options, gained in places, got more rules, more balanced prices and more fluff. 

 

TSons have 4 pages for each cult plus a Khenetai Jedi Page. 

 

WE have better Caedere weapons and two rites of war (base and heretic).

 

Those with limited wargear or lost something gained something else, including a large uptick in combi-weapons.

 

Its not even op or unbalanced internally to my eye, just mass improvements.

 

I mostly play Traitor so I am laughing, but this is weird.

 

Honestly, I cannot speak to what management was thinking greenlighting the Loyalist book.

 

Again, it can either be terrible project management or a really cynical sales ploy. Can't think of any other reason that isn't completely insane.

[Brother Tyler]

49 minutes ago, LameBeard said:

I think the stop-gap here is we should restart all the Tactica threads and explicitly name the new ones 3.0 tactica and the old ones 2.0 tactica.

 

I would lean more towards tags, which we as a community haven't really mastered and which the Invision developers are changing in 5.0. When we upgrade to 5.0, members will no longer be able to enter tags as free text. Instead, we'll have a pre-populated list (so it has to be pretty extensive). So tactica would be one tag and WH Horus Heresy 3e would be another; and searching for topics with both tags will (should) get the results you want. Similarly, you could combine the tags WH Horus Heresy 3e, Imperial Fists Legion, and army list in your search parameters to get you all topics about Imperial Fists Legion army lists for the 3rd edition of the Horus Heresy game. We're still working on our tags list, though.

 

Members also have the option to select one of the topic's tags to be the topic prefix, appearing before the rest of the topic title. So any topic about the current (2nd) edition of the game might have the tag WH Horus Heresy 2e selected as the topic title prefix, whereas those about the upcoming (3rd) edition might use the WH Horus Heresy 3e tag as the topic title prefix. Alternately, someone may prefer the tactica tag as the topic title prefix. We're not going to be overly prescriptive there, leaving it to members' best judgment (though we may remove/change them if we feel it is for the best).

 

We'll discuss the tags issue more, and elsewhere, when we get closer to the 5.0 update (allowing this discussion to return to the upcoming edition of the Warhammer: The Horus Heresy game ).

 

26 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

 

Again, it can either be terrible project management or a really cynical sales ploy. Can't think of any other reason that isn't completely insane.

 

Speaking as a project manager, the problem you're describing isn't project management - it's rules development.

[jaxom]

46 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

As Valrak keeps pointing out, if the legends pdf is tournament and event legal, why aren't they in the book though? It's a really weird division.

Legends = no kit to purchase off the shelf.

33 minutes ago, Ripper.McGuirl said:

Because their line of thinking is that too many options in the book confuses people if they can’t buy the model. I think most people are smart enough to be able to deal with it, but they don’t seem to want to do that with the core books.

Deal with it? Yes. On the other hand it’s a bad look for a toy company to advertise toys it doesn’t make. As many others have pointed out, GW is a company with a simple goal: make line go up. 
 

However, that does a disservice to anyone who has ever read a unit entry, got super-excited, only to find out it required skills or equipment they didn’t have to make the unit because it had no kit. Legends at least lets the reader now upfront that’s the case.

[Indy Techwisp]

5 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

GW should have announced getting Horus to join the design team, that's big from a PR angle.

 

Because the Traitor book is wildly different and retains much more flex (even moreso in some cases).

 

TSons look incredible!

Lost the fancy Pseudo-Plasma tho

[Irate Khornate]

Emperor's Children and Wordbearers got massacred

[StrangerOrders]

20 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Lost the fancy Pseudo-Plasma tho

I see that and raise you an additional five pages of abilities we lost in 2.0 and powers that aren't nearly useless or as likely to kill us.

 

Its a straight upgrade.

 

Our auxilaries are also not locked to specific units unlike loyalists lol.

 

And now I can use my automata as Perils piggy-banks!

 

I played TS enough in 2.0 to see this as a straight upgrade, we got more love than the sum of loyalists combined.

 

Also, EC were already a massacre in 2.0, this was a light shanking at best.

 

Clipping the wings of champs and neutering Jump Options is far more of a beating for the EC imo.

 

And, if we can engage with the edition on its own terms for a second, EC Prime Slot is hilariously bad. But I never used Wardens in 2.0 and that was mostly because my friend's always ended up destroyed before doing anything.

Edited Thursday at 10:26 PM by StrangerOrders

[Marshal Loss]

Need to parse over things with a fine-toothed comb, but Emperor's Children look alright to me, they're definitely not terrible. Their respective LA:EC & LH:EC traits largely stayed the same with Stupefied becoming much better I think, mainly as a result of other legion traits often getting worse and tactical statuses - rather than just pinning - becoming far more important and common (even if we still have to be shot before getting permission to be degenerates). I definitely think the Stupefied of 2.0 was the 3.0 trait shoved into the wrong edition of the game as an interim option while they were working on the new edition. 

 

Some initial thoughts:

• Palatine Blades are now armed with...Palatine Blades (aka super special charnabal sabres)! Though they can swap those for spears, so if you had rapiers/sabres, no options lost. I am relieved that I will not have to think hard about what weapon my unit is armed with, and I hope that in the future every unit has a weapon named after themselves. Glorious. 
• Both Fulgrims are, I think, better, but with a bit less flavour which seems to be the norm with Primarchs in 3.0. Fulgrim Transfigured is significantly scarier. 
• Most sad for me is that the Legion's Apothecarion influence is far less prevalent than before. From 3 surgical and 3 debased augments we are now left with two (shriekers & sonic lance), which can't be spammed, they're Command/Champion only. No 3rd Company Elite, no special Apothecary wackiness. 
• Kakophoni are a little better. Their weapons have stun, like the concussive resonator on the Saturnine Dreadnought. They're still going to be more dangerous to themselves than most scary targets though. 
• As alluded to above and in previous posts, detachments offer nothing near the flavour that the rites of war of 1.0 and 2.0 did. 

Overall I stand by my reaction to the first loyalist leaks. There's definitely things I like but I don't agree with the broader direction (detachments over rites, general loss of options - e.g. so long, massed sonic lance augments). But I'm lucky that my legion seems to have emerged from the 2.0 transition largely unscathed, both in terms of unit model options and efficacy. 

[Gorgoff]

I don't get why people think traitors look better.

My Alpha Legion. Can't play my Headhunters because GW made the weapons thry have illegal. 

My Saboteuer. Can't play him anymore because GW made his weapon options illegal. 

My Iron Warriors. Can't play my Warsmith because GW made his weapon options illegal. 

For my Death Guard I can't say anything so far because I haven't seen their rules but damn did they do my wolves dirty.

Which is crazy because I didn't touch them in three years. I started to buy and built that army at the end of 1ed and then 2ed hit the shelves and basically nuked my whole army. After considering to  completely change whole thing I just out them on a shelv and now again they nuked more of them.

Half of my troop models are now unplayable, I had two Speaker of the Dead and lets bot talk about the preposterous Varagyr. 

It is just so unnecessary. 

For instance I am cool with them putting Grey Stalkers and Slayers back together. In fact I never liked them being two different unit entries but why the didn't they give them the option to swap their axes for chainswords? It would have been so easy. Give them that option and people would still be able to use their models. And the close Combat weapon kit provides new players with enough chainswords to build them. 

Which seems important because apparently....

45 minutes ago, jaxom said:

However, that does a disservice to anyone who has ever read a unit entry, got super-excited, only to find out it required skills or equipment they didn’t have to make the unit because it had no kit. 

.... GW makes rules for the mouthbreathers this fine gentlement describes here. I get it, a ten year old will struggle to exchange the Boltguns from Breachers and replace them with Volkite Chargers from the special weapon kit, because he ate the glue or whatever but is this enough reason to nuke an option?

What should I do with my unit of Breachers? Cut off the Chsrgers again put those Boltguns back on because GW now majes rules for people who are unable to combine a unit kit with a special weapon upgrade kit? 

That is preposterous and it makes me so mad.

Not only because I lost models I will probably not play in this edition but also because they hit me AGAIN with their stupid changes which do nothing for the game but making it less appealing. 

And shall I tell you something really sad?

I find GW's “No model no rules” business model so disgusting, but I want a big, fat box full of awesome models even more, so I'm definitely going to give in.

[Dagoth Ur]

I have to say this leak series has turned from bizarre to downright horrific.

 

What do you mean no powerfists, chainfists or thunder hammers on tartaros squads of any kind?

 

What do you mean locked load-outs on consul centurions?

 

What do you mean absence of TDA options for consul centurions?

Edited Thursday at 11:08 PM by Dagoth Ur
Clarity

[Son of Rawl]

5 minutes ago, Dagoth Ur said:

I have to say this leak series has turned from bizarre to downright horrific.

 

What do you mean no powerfists, chainfists or thunder hammers on tartaros squads of any kind?

 

What do you mean locked load-outs on centurions?

 

What do you mean absence of TDA options for centurions?

 

Heard it being called "Rules Drop Massacre" and I think it fits.

[Waaagh?]

18 minutes ago, Dagoth Ur said:

I have to say this leak series has turned from bizarre to downright horrific.

 

What do you mean no powerfists, chainfists or thunder hammers on tartaros squads of any kind?

 

What do you mean locked load-outs on centurions?

 

What do you mean absence of TDA options for centurions?

 

There's a centurion in terminator armour option in the contents page and the centurion datasheet gives them access to all the usual weapon options?

 

EDIT Ah you meant Consuls

Edited Thursday at 11:06 PM by Waaagh?

[Khulu]

My Thousand Sons are looking a lot more exciting than my White Scars right now. 

[jaxom]

32 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

GW makes rules for the mouthbreathers this fine gentlement describes here. I get it, a ten year old will struggle to exchange the Boltguns from Breachers and replace them with Volkite Chargers from the special weapon kit, because he ate the glue or whatever but is this enough reason to nuke an option?

Some folks don't like converting, and yeah they're GW's bread-and-butter. GW certainly thinks its a reason to decrease options; and I'm guessing they've only seen positive responses because GW keeps doing it. I've no platitudes or witticisms, no positive advice or anything else which will change that.  At the same time, I'm not go to project why those people don't like or are unable to convert. Because, I personally don't get it. Converting is my favorite part of the hobby, but it's my favorite part. I don't know... it's like this makes me think the entire endeavor is worthless. Guess I'll go eat glue. 

 

 

[roryokane]

8 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Some folks don't like converting, and yeah they're GW's bread-and-butter. GW certainly thinks its a reason to decrease options; and I'm guessing they've only seen positive responses because GW keeps doing it. I've no platitudes or witticisms, no positive advice or anything else which will change that.  At the same time, I'm not go to project why those people don't like or are unable to convert. Because, I personally don't get it. Converting is my favorite part of the hobby, but it's my favorite part. I don't know... it's like this makes me think the entire endeavor is worthless. Guess I'll go eat glue. 

 

 

I don’t get it though. Why does giving everyone else conversion options hurt the people who don’t want to do it? :S

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

This doesn't looks good, for me.  No Reavers with Jump Packs or Paired Lightning Claws? Justaerin paying Carsoran axes?

Not good,at all.

[StrangerOrders]

1 minute ago, roryokane said:

I don’t get it though. Why does giving everyone else conversion options hurt the people who don’t want to do it? :S

The part I personally don't get it is the allocation.

 

Why do Loyalists have next to no wargear options but Traitors have gained them in places or mostly kept them?

 

Why does every traitor termi get the full Combi-List but Gorgon's don't get what they are modeled with?

 

Why do Praetors, Centurians and Optae get Jump Packs despite not usually being sold with them but no one else does? Why then do their retinues not get the option?

 

I know the flavor at this exact moment is the screaming cacophony, but the specific choices are odd enough to warrant examination.

 

Even in rules, some have gotten brutally simplified while others have gotten unprecedented depth.

 

Its not a pure strip, its almost bizarrely randomized and even weighed oddly towards the Traitors (you can choose to take personal offense at losing one option while gaining another, but you will seem kind of petulant in the face of others losing everything).

[01RTB01]

Plastic tartaros come with power fists... Can no longer take them.

 

The sky isn't falling but there's so many decisions that honestly make zero sense at all.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

Clearly the design team isn’t on a drug testing program.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

24 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Plastic tartaros come with power fists... Can no longer take them.

 

The sky isn't falling but there's so many decisions that honestly make zero sense at all.

Maybe Power Fists are included in the Power Weapon category?

(Please,please,please,...)

 

I edit myself: NO.  Power weapons are just the four classical weapons, sword,axe,maul and spear.

what a mess

Edited Friday at 12:00 AM by Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf

[StrangerOrders]

6 minutes ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

Maybe Power Fists are included in the Power Weapon category?

(Please,please,please,...)

They are on the same weapon chart...

 

Oh my god that is hilariously stupid given how many special units have 'Power Weapon' stock.

 

Edit: Nah nvm, its specified for stock and if its that general then anyone can take a Saturnine Disruption Fist... which can't possibly be the case.

Edited Thursday at 11:56 PM by StrangerOrders

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Lot of things have no sense...specially when you look closely some pictures. For example, Justaerin have no longer the paired lighting claws option, but you can see pics with miniatures using them.

 

Or they are going to fix it with a lot PDFs or this will be a disaster 

[Misterduch]

So I guess the odds of 3.0 being written by AI increased

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, roryokane said:

I don’t get it though. Why does giving everyone else conversion options hurt the people who don’t want to do it? :S

To be clear: I want conversion and kitbashing options. I, personally, do not think having some units require conversion hurts. What I think can hurt is when it is not clear which units are off-the-shelf and which are kitbashes. I think units requiring actual conversion work are a bad idea because not everyone can pull off conversions; it reeks to me of a form of pay-to-play beyond what is normal.