Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[MARK0SIAN]

4 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

There was also 2 praetors in the Age of Darkness box. Both plastic. Now we have the Saturnine Praetor in plastic. 

 

There was also 2 praetors in the Age of Darkness box. Both plastic. Now we have the Saturnine Praetor in plastic. 

How on earth did I forget them 

 

I still think the Legion specific ones will remain resin though.

[Mogger351]

10 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

 

This guy is imo the default centurion of sorts, more bling, but not overly so.

Ultrashrek

[Nephaston]

8 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Ultrashrek

 

WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY SWAMP? All right, get out of here. All of you. Move it. Let's go.

[Astartes Consul]

Is anyone else quite intrigued to see how the various blogs / channels / content creators have reacted when the embargo lifts tomorrow? Given the issues and fairly unanimous reaction online, I can’t imagine anyone exactly singing the praises of the Libers. Might actually give GW a pause for thought (stranger things have happened)

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Aarik said:

Each iteration should be moving closer towards (and in increasingly smaller increments) the Platonic ideal of your rules system.  If you are not narrowing in with each successive iteration, you lack a coherent direction.

One of the reasons it took me so long to give up hope on this edition was because there's enough present to see what could be and it does look like trying to reach that Platonic Ideal. One of my major criticisms of many GW rulesets is they aren't about anything; you can't read them and know what the game is about (other than killing enemy units). The 3rd ed ruleset tells me:

1. It is a game of maneuver (no penalties for moving), setting up advantage (statuses), and being the right place to maximize them (bonuses for not moving).
2. It is a game of heroic combat between champions (challenges) whose ideals and fighting styles give them unique advantages (legion and special character specific gambits).
3. It is a game of the mighty armies which conquered the galaxy (for example: detachment structure based on Legiones Astartes in BB1; though I think they really botched the execution here).

Hell, I can even see how the new Rites of War and Legion Detachments could have been a much more faithful update of the Old Rites. Imagine this:

• Rites of War gives access to the following:
  • Legion Tactica - A single rule with benefits for all or most Legion units.
  • Legion Gambit
  • Legion Advanced Reaction
  • Legion specific Prime Advantage (currently in war gear... for reasons?)
  • Heroes of the Legion - gives access to one Reaction modification of your choice (out of three) which you Warlord and his unit can perform EDIT: and the unit can do so twice per battle in addition to the once for the army /EDIT. Similar to old warlord traits, but leans into 3rd ed's focus on characters having Cinematic Moments, similar to the books where a character isn't having a macro-level effect... that's up to the player using the unit correctly. I don't know if I'm expressing that concept correctly... think of Raldoran; he's an amazing general, but the general part in a game is deployment and the player using units; and the cinematic moments in the books are Raldoran acting at the squad and personal level.
  • Legion Formations - Access to Legion specific Primary Detachments.
    • Each detachment would have the unit slots one would expect for the formation.
    • Each detachment would have a single rule which benefits all or most unit types in the Primary Detachment, but does apply to the whole army (Crusade Detachment would be something to improve Ld and Cool as they represent the tried-and-true formation which took the Legions from the Sol System to the edge of the galaxy).
    • Each detachment would have a unique Prime Advantage.

Such a system makes being an Old Rite even easier because it is not tied to playing a game large enough for a Praetor or taking a Delegatus. I'd love a game with that for army composition... especially of all the units made the transition too.

Edited Friday at 10:38 PM by jaxom

[Lord Marshal]

Solar Auxilia contents page is on the NZ site.

 

 

From squinting it looks like: 
 

Quote

HC - Supreme Command Section?

 

C - Tactical Command Section?

C - Veletaris Command Section

C - Hermes Command Command?

C - Armoured Command Section?

 

E - Veletaris Storm Section

E - Veletaris Vanguard Section

 

HS - Charonites

 

Troops - Lasrifle Section

 

S - Basilisk 

S - Medusaa

S - Rapier

S - Veletaris Hermes?

 

WE - Aethon

 

Transport - Arvus

 

HT - Dracosan

 

R - Hermes Light

 

FA - Lightning

FA - Thunderbolt

 

A - Leman Russ Strike

A - Leman Russ Assault

A - Malcador

A - Infernus

A - Valdor

 

LoW - Stormhammer

 

 

Companion Sections, Medicae, Jovan, the Aurox (guh?) and the Cyclops appear have been given the boot.

 

Legate Marshal and Lifewards were probably merged into the High Command unit.

 

Edited Friday at 10:07 PM by Lord Marshal

[jaxom]

49 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Spoiler

One of the reasons it took me so long to give up hope on this edition was because there's enough present to see what could be and it does look like trying to reach that Platonic Ideal. One of my major criticisms of many GW rulesets is they aren't about anything; you can't read them and know what the game is about (other than killing enemy units). The 3rd ed ruleset tells me:

1. It is a game of maneuver (no penalties for moving), setting up advantage (statuses), and being the right place to maximize them (bonuses for not moving).
2. It is a game of heroic combat between champions (challenges) whose ideals and fighting styles give them unique advantages (legion and special character specific gambits).
3. It is a game of the mighty armies which conquered the galaxy (for example: detachment structure based on Legiones Astartes in BB1; though I think they really botched the execution here).

Hell, I can even see how the new Rites of War and Legion Detachments could have been a much more faithful update of the Old Rites. Imagine this:

• Rites of War gives access to the following:
  • Legion Tactica - A single rule with benefits for all or most Legion units.
  • Legion Gambit
  • Legion Advanced Reaction
  • Legion specific Prime Advantage (currently in war gear... for reasons?)
  • Heroes of the Legion - gives access to one Reaction of your choice (out of three) which you Warlord and his unit can perform. Similar to old warlord traits, but leans into 3rd ed's focus on characters having Cinematic Moments, similar to the books where a character isn't having a macro-level effect... that's up to the player using the unit correctly. I don't know if I'm expressing that concept correctly... think of Raldoran; he's an amazing general, but the general part in a game is deployment and the player using units; and the cinematic moments in the books are Raldoran acting at the squad and personal level.
  • Legion Formations - Access to Legion specific Primary Detachments.
    • Each detachment would have the unit slots one would expect for the formation.
    • Each detachment would have a single rule which benefits all or most unit types in the Primary Detachment, but does apply to the whole army (Crusade Detachment would be something to improve Ld and Cool as they represent the tried-and-true formation which took the Legions from the Sol System to the edge of the galaxy).
    • Each detachment would have a unique Prime Advantage.

Such a system makes being an Old Rite even easier because it is not tied to playing a game large enough for a Praetor or taking a Delegatus. I'd love a game with that for army composition... especially of all the units made the transition too.

 

 

Following up on this with a rough example:

 

Blood Angels

• Legion Tactica - w/e the studio came up with.
• Legion Gambit - w/e the studio came up with.
• Legion Advanced Reaction - w/e the studio came up with.
• Legion specific Prime Advantage - w/e the studio came up with
• Heroes of the Legion
  • Encarmine Paladin (Loyalist only) - gain Fear when using Legion reaction.
  • Paragon of Unity - remove one Status when using Legion reaction.
  • Thrall of the Red Thirst (Traitor only) - improve melee punch when using Legion reaction.
• Legion Formations - Access to Legion specific Primary Detachments.
  • Day of Revelation
    • 1 High Command slot, 3 Character slots, 2 Troop slots, 1 First Strike slot, 1 Vanguard slot (can only be Dawnbreakers), 2 Transport slots
    • All units deployed normally have Fearless until the start of the controlling player's second turn.
    • Prime Advantage: Instead of making a Reserve roll for the unit to see when it enters play, before the battle starts choose which turn it will enter from Reserves.
  • Day of Sorrows
    • 1 High Command slot, 3 Character slots, 2 Troop slots, 2 Vanguard slots (can only be Crimson Paladins).
    • All units gain Expendable (1) or improve their Expendable value by 1; and improve their Expendable value by a further 1 when within 6" of an Objective.
    • Prime Advantage: Gain a damage mitigation when at or less than half unit strength.

Edited Friday at 10:54 PM by jaxom

[Sigismund's Ghost]

I think Day of Revelation is no longer viable.

[Djangomatic82]

12 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Also again remember that you are all getting a Legion book. So some things might comeback in one shape or form. 

That makes it worse, you do see that, don't you?

We have to wait for the "possibility", not "guarantee", that GW will give us the opportunity to pay another fee, on top of the cost of accessing the base rules+the faction Libers, to bring our current models BACK into to legality.

If it existed in 2.0, there's no reason that it should be gate kept behind a journal.

The Libers, from edition to edition, SHOULD contain the models and rules that were released during the previous editions life cycle.

The Journals SHOULD be used to introduce COMPLETELY NEW models and rules that did not exist prior to its release.

Your argument is to wait on a GW cash grab, nothing more.

[Mardi]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

1. There's more than enough been seen to make judgements.

 

2. Tournaments shouldn't dictate anything. They were a huge reason that 40k nosedived. Heresy was supposed to be sanctuary away from tournamentification of the games. You may have therefore encountered people taking "best" but there's plenty of us that enjoyed the freedom for modelling and narrative purposes. My dual charnabal sabres centurion with boarding shield wasn't causing anyone problems. He was there to lead some breachers on Isstvan III to keep the traitors at bay as long as possible. 

 

But it's ok though as I've not got a clear picture of everything...

Ah, sorry I meant events of course. Haven’t been in any tournament. As I said previously, I do feel bad for anyone with fluffy loadouts that are now illegal. Erm.. with boarding shield it’s not like you’ve gotten any extra attacks from two sabres before, you just paid 10 points for the looks. I don’t see how you couldn’t keep your model as is, if it hasn’t troubled you before.

[jaxom]

Dark Angels

• Legion Tactica - The Angels of Death (the one the studio came up with).
• Legion Gambit - Sword of the Order (the one the studio came up with).
• Legion Advanced Reaction - Vengeance of the First Legion (the one the studio came up with).
• Legion specific Prime Advantage - Paladin of the Hekatonystika (the one the studio came up with, not a huge fan personally).
• Heroes of the Legion (this is where I'd use Paladin of the Hekatonystika)
  • Marshall of the Crown - gain additional combat resolution when using Legion reaction.
  • Seneschal of the Keys - gain Hatred against engaged enemy type when using Legion reaction.
• Legion Formations - Access to Legion specific Primary Detachments.
  • The Steel Fist --> Ironwing Gauntlet
    • 1 High Command slot, 3 Character slots, 2 Troop slots, 2 Heavy Support slots, 2 Transport slots
    • All Vehicles gain Autorepair or improve autorepair.
    • Prime Advantage: Gain a bonus to ranged attacks after disembarking from a transport.
  • The Eskaton Imperative --> Dreadwing Cadre
    • 1 High Command slot, 3 Character slots, 2 Troop slots, 2 Support slots (can only be Interemptors or Rapier Batteries), 4 Transport slots.
    • All units have -1 RS and gain a Phage effect on ranged weapons.
    • Prime Advantage: Ignore any Status effects from Rad and Phosphex weapons.
  • The Storm of War --> Stormwing Muster
    • 1 High Command slot, 3 Character slots, 2 Troop slots, 2 Shock Assault slots (can only be Veteran Tactical Squads), 4 Transport slots.
    • All Infantry units increase BS and WS by 1 while above half strength.
    • Prime Advantage: Gain the Stubborn special rule.
  • The Unbroken Vow --> Deathwing Conclave
    • 1 High Command slot, 3 Character slots, 2 Shock Assault slots, 2 Vanguard slots (can only be Inner Circle Companions), 4 Transport slots.
    • All units gain Vanguard (1) or improve their Vanguard value by 1.
    • Prime Advantage: +1 Attack while within 12" of an Objective.
  • The Seeker's Arrow --> Ravenwing Lance
    • 1 High Command slot, 3 Character slots, 4 First Strike slots.
    • Something improving movement, I'd need to read all the rules dealing with moving to decide what is appropriate.
    • Prime Advantage: Gain Outflank rule.
  • The Serpent's Bane --> Firewing Echelon
    • 1 High Command slot, 3 Character slots, 2 Combat Pioneer slots, 2 Vanguard slots (Seeker Squads only).
    • All weapons gain Precision or improve their Precision by 1.
    • Prime Advantage: Gain +1 Attack when in combat with a Character or his unit.

 

•  

[Schrödingers Primarch]

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

From squinting it looks like: 
 

 

Companion Sections, Medicae, Jovan, the Aurox (guh?) and the Cyclops appear have been given the boot.

 

Legate Marshal and Lifewards were probably merged into the High Command unit.

 

It's very odd the Cyclops would be in Legions Imperialis and not in Age of Darkness. This has me more convinced that some units (& formations) will be re-introduced through Journals and other media. Resin models or units without a current model seem to be targeted. Legion Destroyers are another odd exemption, when even the new Moritat sheet mentions them.....

If I'm right, extremely bad look by GW pay walling (& invalidating for a time) previously available armies & units.

[Northern Walker]

2 hours ago, Astartes Consul said:

Is anyone else quite intrigued to see how the various blogs / channels / content creators have reacted when the embargo lifts tomorrow? Given the issues and fairly unanimous reaction online, I can’t imagine anyone exactly singing the praises of the Libers. Might actually give GW a pause for thought (stranger things have happened)

I suspect shilling, followed by backpeddling.

[Kizzdougs]

3 hours ago, Urauloth said:

I love Centurions and Consuls and I'd be very happy to add a ton of them. My options for that aren't actually very good, though. Most of them are resin direct-only models which I can't get from my preferred stores and set me back almost as much as a whole box of plastics, and now their wargear is locked which restricts me when it comes to personalising them or kitbashing my own.

 

Actually, what does a generic Centurion look like? Some of the old FW guys were mostly distinguished from the ranks by fancy hats and pauldrons, while the Mk.II Centurion in Saturnine looks more like the Praetors from the previous launch box in terms of bling. I guess it's up to you when you model them and varies by legion, but you see what I mean? If I sit down and say "I'm going to kitbash myself a plastic Centurion" am I starting with the command squad box or taking a saw to a Praetor?

 

I guess I wish we had some kind of Centurion kit like the old 40k Captain box people got so much mileage out of back in the day: an officer in artificer armour with a few options who'd make an "out of the box" Centurion for any legion or a blank slate for conversions. This is off topic now, though, my bad!

If you're limited to plastic kits then the Command Squad box + a close combat weapons kit will give you everything you need for a basic Centurion. He doesn't need to be too fancy, he's just a line officer.

[Nephaston]

Marine specific detachments

[BitsHammer]

So I've been rolling things around in my head quite a bit since the leaks dropped and to start with this is why I think GW teased things out too much. If they were more upfront with the changes and let use see things in more detail sooner it would have helped set expectations. That's on them and the fact people are reacting this strongly is because we couldn't set expectations in line with the actual game they're selling us.

 

I have mixed feelings about the game as it stands because while it's clear they have a clear design ethos around trying to make the game easier to get into for new people and reduce how much a bad die roll can ruin the game. And frankly that isn't a bad design ethos in a vacuum even though I am never happy about losing legacy options even if I can get the logic behind why they may choose to do it.

 

The biggest issue I currently have with the game is they also paired that design with stuff like the Night Lords and World Eaters getting their army rules based it being gated behind multiple die rolls which is frankly design I don't agree with. If the army has a core rule and gets a better rule because of die rolls I'd be all for it, but we don't see that. I just don't like this kind of design element, especially when it's not applied across every army and only some armies have to deal with randomly having an army rule. Also, if my army rule is dependent on inflicting status conditions then I need a built in buff to actually force tests, not just make people take them at a lower value when they have to do them. Like give Terror Squads and Night Raptors built in panic as a unit rule or something.

 

I have a bunch of questions in general as well (like the video they put out on army building mentions an army of bikes....but we don't see characters having access to bikes), which makes me wonder if we're missing stuff that was put in the journals because it wasn't ready for the book, or if we're looking at a day one patch.

 

I don't think the world is on fire, but this isn't exactly lighting a fire under me to crank out an army right this minute either. I'm lukewarm about things at the moment at best.

Edited Saturday at 01:19 AM by BitsHammer

[Marshal Rohr]

35 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Marine specific detachments

What’s the loyalist version of the Daemons choice. 

[Djangomatic82]

looking over the rules, things that have stuck out to me as missing or removed.

 

Missing- What is the distance of a Pile-In move? the charge rules call it out explicitly as a Pile-In, but list the actual distance nowhere in the section. Maybe it will be in a glossary, but it stuck out as something missing.

 

Changed-

Melee has been toned down significantly, seemingly in favor of shooting and the Challenge phases.

 

1.You can ONLY initiate a charge against a visible unit within 12".

 

2. Total charge distance has been reduced SIGNIFICANTLY.

-the new set up move depends on base move characteristic+initiative value+any rules.

-EX:Tacticals can set up move as follows (M7"+I4=11=3" set up move. An

-Assault Squad can set up move as follows (M12"+I4=16=5" set up move.)

-You must move the closest model straight towards the closes target unit model=to the maximum set up move, up to base contact. Then, if the model is not in base contact, you roll 2D6 for the charge roll, DISCARD the lowest dice and use the remaining dice value to make the charge move. If you cannot finish the Charge move in Base contact with an enemy unit, the Charge is Failed and you make a Cool Check to see if you are Stunned.

SO 

TOTAL charge distance a Tactical squad can move is between 4"-9"

TOTAL charge distance an Assault Squad can Move is 6"-11".

 

3. The total number of attacks a unit now makes seems to be the cumulative printed on the unit profile + any additional attacks granted by their weapon selection (EX:paired lighting claws give +2A, where as a single claw uses the characters attack stat.) + any granted by legion or special rules (I haven't noticed any).

EX: Tactical squad (bolters, bolt pistol, bayonette)

combined unit Attack attribute (Sgt=1 attack, 9x Tacticals =9 attacks)=10 attacks. 

No +1A for Charging (removed)

No +1A for having 2x melee weapons or 1x melee+1x pistol (removed)

No +1A for having a Chainsword (removed from Tacticals as a weapon option and the +1A was replaced by Shred(6+))

4. Instant Death and 2xS doubling out

I have not seen the INSTANT DEATH USR in either core rule book or SM liber leaks, so it looks like it has been removed .

-Also, It looks like doubling out on S vs T to instant kill an enemy is no longer a rule. Though the rules around determining wounds is on P.196 and I haven't seen that yet. Maybe there is still a doubling out instant death mechanic, but it wouldn't surprise me either way if it goes the way of the Dodo.

I think it may be a good thing that it is gone, but i think it was a neat trick to hit an enemy with rad grenades and a S6 weapon and see them get insta gibbed. Se La Vie.

Edited Saturday at 02:16 AM by Djangomatic82
added missing info

[Ripper.McGuirl]

14 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

What’s the loyalist version of the Daemons choice. 

Ya know I had been looking at all the leaks thinking “it’s so weird they didnt do anything like give the vigilator a recon auxilary detachment of some kind”, and this just goes to show we still don’t have the full picture.

[Nephaston]

20 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

What’s the loyalist version of the Daemons choice. 

No clue yet, though I wouldn't be surprised if loyalists simply didn't get anything like that. 

[Brofist]

Tried to build some lists today and while I was able to come close to my 2.0 list, they all lost flavor and abilities. The overall weapon and equipment balance seems worse than 2.0, but there are less armywide holes (like super heavies and artillery, for example). Still lots of dumb things they never fix, like giving fliers assault vehicle rules, making less powerful weapons cheaper, or scaling weapon profiles with cost. As always they over index on nerfing certain areas and the things they buffed that sucked in the last edition are the new outliers. Its just more of the same with less flavor and the corporate mandate of nothing fun allowed unless its on the sprue.

[MDops]

Has there been anything on the consuls leaked or have i missed a link?

[Djangomatic82]

Interesting, though I don't think it fixes the problem with Deepstriking. We are still locked into only being able to Deepstrike with a maximum of 4 units throughout the game. If you dont bring this consul, you can only deepstrike with 3 units. 

It really puts a damper on bringing more than 3 jumpack units and totally kills the BA Day of Revelation type of Army, which the BA rules add nothing to enable.

[Marshal Rohr]

That’s because they’ll be releasing a Drop Pod special mission that will be the mission where the rules to bring in more than one unit a time will come from the mission itself instead of Army rules so if you want to play a Drop Pod army you have to get the consent of the person being drop podded onto. 

[Djangomatic82]

4 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

That’s because they’ll be releasing a Drop Pod special mission that will be the mission where the rules to bring in more than one unit a time will come from the mission itself instead of Army rules so if you want to play a Drop Pod army you have to get the consent of the person being drop podded onto. 

blech