Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Lord Sondar]

4 minutes ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

I think is the second  option.

 

So...we can lit torches, grab clubs, sharp knives and rise guillotines or not?

I think someone is very feverishly writing an updated pdf as we speak too. But well never know.

 

I actually felt a physical weight lifted from my shoulders.  I've been building my Blood Angels since before the Black Books so I have a few more esoteric models in my collection.

[LSM]

Just now, Dried said:

They already said a few weeks ago, they intended to publish a "legacy" pdf and that it'll be tournament legal. I think it was the plan all along.
But it's really poor communication.

 

Yeah.

 

This article (from the July 2nd) says: "The Liber books deal with units which are part of the current Horus Heresy miniatures range, but there have been many units with rules in past editions which never had miniatures, or which have left the range... all official Warhammer-run events will allow legacy units."

 

Their plan seems to always have been this.

 

13 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

GW baffle me, why voluntarily piss people off for a week?

 

I mean... they didn't leak the books. 

 

They've reacted way too slowly in putting out a statement of: "hey, no, the tournament-legal Legacy pdf's will cover all that stuff you're kvetching over."

 

But they didn't plan on people knowing what was cut out of the Libers before knowing that it was (mostly) just bumped to digital, and not gone.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

They have misrepresented, or outright lied about the release since the beginning. The legacies are as big as the Libers now that they’ve been called out. White Scars all grav armies will still be unworkable as cavalry doesn’t have vanguard or line. Blood Angels Day of Revelation is dead because of the prohibition on number of units that can deep strike. I could go on, but what is the point.

[StrangerOrders]

15 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

Yeah.

 

This article (from the July 2nd) says: "The Liber books deal with units which are part of the current Horus Heresy miniatures range, but there have been many units with rules in past editions which never had miniatures, or which have left the range... all official Warhammer-run events will allow legacy units."

 

Their plan seems to always have been this.

 

 

I mean... they didn't leak the books. 

 

They've reacted way too slowly in putting out a statement of: "hey, no, the tournament-legal Legacy pdf's will cover all that stuff you're kvetching over."

 

But they didn't plan on people knowing what was cut out of the Libers before knowing that it was (mostly) just bumped to digital, and not gone.

I hate to point fingers but some of the internet rage got silly to the point of deluded.

 

Saw a top-voted comment on reddit (I know, I know) complaining about the cruelty of GW for cutting out Palatine's Jump Pack option.

 

Which is kind of incredible given that said option has been a different unit (Aquilae), in a Legacy PDF,  for an edition. Which has now unsurprisingly been confirmed to still be in the next PDF.

 

Some of the panic was warranted but folks definitely milked it. Honestly including the leaker probably given how many slurs they took the opportunity to air while at it.

Edited Wednesday at 02:45 PM by StrangerOrders

[jaxom]

12 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

 

I mean... they didn't leak the books. 

 

They've reacted way too slowly in putting out a statement of: "hey, no, the tournament-legal Legacy pdf's will cover all that stuff you're kvetching over."

 

But they didn't plan on people knowing what was cut out of the Libers before knowing that it was (mostly) just bumped to digital, and not gone.

Even if there were no leak, I’d expect an article like this on Monday following the weekend of first reviews where the missing units would have been revealed.

 

Quote

The army lists in the Liber books are a reflection of the current range of miniatures. They are written to reflect the contents of boxed units, so new players can build armies without feeling the need to buy multiple kits just to make one unit.

Mmm, vindication.

[Cleon]

35 minutes ago, Lord Sondar said:

I think someone is very feverishly writing an updated pdf as we speak too. But well never know.

 

I actually felt a physical weight lifted from my shoulders.  I've been building my Blood Angels since before the Black Books so I have a few more esoteric models in my collection.

 

I'm looking at my Blood Angels (both built and planned and seeing....
No 'Additional Legion armoury options' under the Blood Angels heading.

No Angels Tears slot that could give them back Chainswords and/or assault cannons

No Crimson Paladins slot to give them back access to fists, or any other AP2 melee.

No Dreadnought slot to give my shooty (not jumpy) contemptors their assault cannon fists back.

 

So yeah, happy for other folks but all my Blood angles specific units that aren't special characters still look illegal.

Edited Wednesday at 03:03 PM by Cleon

[jaxom]

2 minutes ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

White Scars all grav armies will still be unworkable as cavalry doesn’t have vanguard or line.

Could you explain further please? I’m not sure what this means.

[Sigismund's Ghost]

1 minute ago, jaxom said:

Could you explain further please? I’m not sure what this means.

Without these rules conventional scoring will be impossible. No points for eliminating enemies on an objective and no points for holding one. If you want to win, table your opponent.

[dicebod]

1 minute ago, jaxom said:

Could you explain further please? I’m not sure what this means.

In 3.0, cavalry can't score objectives. So an all Jetbike mounted army would have no way to score points other than via Vanguard or through secondaries.

It's good to see all these unit added back in...but there are still some glaring omisssions in terms of army wargear options. We have no idea what "Additional Legion Armoury Options" means...that doesn't sound like it would be generic stuff, like adding chainswords to Angel's Tears. Maybe it's more giving Word Bearers Warpfire back?

I could see wargear options being added back in via an *errata*...but that may just be grasping at straws at this point.

[Mogger351]

24 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

They didn't.  People leaked the books that should never have been seen before this Legends document.

It's not like GW said "here take a look at these books".  Some dude got really angry and started uploading them.

No, they did. The embargo for reviews and content providers lifted Saturday, the community would have had a run down of multiple community figure heads all saying the same thing about the books that Random Joe's did, so they still allowed this maybe just to a shorter span of time.

[StrangerOrders]

17 minutes ago, Sigismund's Ghost said:

Without these rules conventional scoring will be impossible. No points for eliminating enemies on an objective and no points for holding one. If you want to win, table your opponent.

I am mildly disturbed at the prospect of not trying to table your enemy, granted part of the reason I do considerably better with Heresy than 40k in the first place is my insatiable blood lust.

 

Go ahead, tally your little marks on your paper, it will mean little when naught remains but a mountain of plastic (and some resins still tbf) corpses!

 

...You know, I might have been too harsh on WEs in the past...

Edited Wednesday at 03:07 PM by StrangerOrders

[DemonGSides]

2 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

No, they did. The embargo for reviews and content providers lifted Saturday, the community would have had a run down of multiple community figure heads all saying the same thing about the books that Random Joe's did, so they still allowed this maybe just to a shorter span of time.

 

So they've released something within 4 days of most of those articles going up and that's not a quick enough reaction time for you?

[Son of Rawl]

48 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

Would LOVE to know if this was always planned as such or if there has been some very rapidly designed rules porting

I think its a panicked damage control. GW don't usually disscuss leaked rules, unless they can joke about it. 

 

And I don't think the omissions were a mistake. As there are far too many of them for it to be a mistake, if so they need to fire the entire proof reading/quality control they have.

[01RTB01]

3 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

So they've released something within 4 days of most of those articles going up and that's not a quick enough reaction time for you?

If they'd have put this out at the outset, it would have avoided a lot of what followed. They weren't to know leaks would happen, however, they'd have to be dim not to think that people would be upset/ angry once the reality of the libers started hitting the net. This should have gone on Monday or last week.

[bloodhound23]

29 minutes ago, Cerbero666 said:

I get the thing people say about GW being a miniature company foremost as an explanation for them not putting units rules on rulebooks if those units don't have their proper miniatures, but I personally find it lame. On the one hand, with those rules you motivate people to make their own conversions, yeah I guess third party companies are gonna take advantage of that and release a version of those units, but still you got a lot of people doing their own conversions with YOUR miniatures. Besides, that was a big part of the hobby back in the day, and they even motivated it on their Exemplary Battles pdfs not so long ago (Atramentar, Huscarls, Karaoghlanlar, etc). On the other hand, if you are worried about third party companies doing a version of your units, DO IT YOURSELF. I supposed a lot of us would want an offical version of units like the Atramentar, the Huscarls, the Excindio (Men of Iron!!!!!), the Morlocks or characters like Rylanor, Cassian Dracos, Autek Mor, Kyr Vhalen... Do it so no other company would take that money from you. But they choose the worst way on any given situation, always. 

99% of kitbashes are 95% GW models, often producing way fewer models than would would expect for the total cost of the bits involved. I just really don’t understand the histrionics that lead to writing the rules around what’s available in a single given box. People are going to buy extra boxes to make the one box a little different. How is that not a huge financial win? They should be encouraging this frankly wasteful behavior on our parts (lol), as we are plastic-addicted enough to spend $100 to make 5 dudes. 
 

I feel like it doesn’t do anything for new players to eliminate this sort of incentive for kitbashers.

[StratoKhan]

6 hours ago, Mandragola said:

A big difference with these rules is that there are very few restrictions. You can have pretty much whatever you want if you’ll pay a character tax. 

I think this is the main item for me. I don’t want to spend more points on characters and less on troops.
 

It’s not a design philosophy I particularly like the implications of. If all other assumptions remain largely the same, it implies 3.0 armies will be smaller and characters will be more numerous.

 

But I guess with all the resin consul HQs that have been released, maybe someone is banking on selling more consuls.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

8 minutes ago, Son of Rawl said:

I think its a panicked damage control. GW don't usually disscuss leaked rules, unless they can joke about it. 

 

And I don't think the omissions were a mistake. As there are far too many of them for it to be a mistake, if so they need to fire the entire proof reading/quality control they have.

The changes to wargear and units in the Libers should have never happened in the first place. Putting them into PDFs won´t let them earn the trust of the community back. The damage has been done and GW demonstrated what they think of your model collections which took you years to build and paint. 

[Irate Khornate]

Copied my own comments on Reddit because Im lazy.

 

I've hit a point of apathy with everything honestly.

 

Do I think there were going to be a good bit of units in the legacies PDF? Yes. 

 

Do I think they spent the last couple of days adding more units and a LOT of wargear patches to the PDF? Absolutely.

 

Does this change how I feel about 3rd edition? Not really. After watching just how clunky the game looks and feels on a few batreps I'm just not that interested. The rules still read like word salad, and let's be honest they wouldn't have taken away the options from the Consuls in the first place if they'd intended to keep those options anyway.

I've seen too many times what happens to legacies units in their other games to think this fight is over. This will become a point of contention in the future again, they've just realized they weren't going to win this battle.

[StrangerOrders]

11 minutes ago, StratoKhan said:

I think this is the main item for me. I don’t want to spend more points on characters and less on troops.
 

It’s not a design philosophy I particularly like the implications of. If all other assumptions remain largely the same, it implies 3.0 armies will be smaller and characters will be more numerous.

 

But I guess with all the resin consul HQs that have been released, maybe someone is banking on selling more consuls.

Kind of?

 

I've been playing with the point values and army lists leaked with my local group.

 

A Centurian unlocks two slots and alot of Auxiliaries, especially the Legion-Specifics give you alot of slots. Combine that with Logistical Support being the most auto-include Prime Benefit for alot of armies and it is actually a bit of a struggle to stay *below* 3k with what you got for 2 Centurians and a Praetor.

 

That's 5 Detachments, alot of which can run you 800 points per easy... To say nothing of the Crusade Detachment itself.

 

We've been debating bumping our standard to 4k, depending on how the rest of the armies look.

 

To give an example look at the EC specific one alone:

-1 Retinue

-1 Elite

-2 Fast Attack

 

Grab a full squad of Phoenix, Palatines (Aquilae if they share the slot and that will likely cost more), two Scimitar Squads and you are looking at near 600 pts with minimum squad sizes and no upgrades... for 1 Auxiliary.

Edited Wednesday at 03:19 PM by StrangerOrders

[lokkorex]

Welp, I don't see either Kyr Vhalen or Erasmus Golg in that list, and I doubt a Warsmith upgrade is part of the expanded armoury for Iron Warriors, more like we'll get back shrapnel munitions and maybe some graviton variants for dreadnoughts.

 

Just my speculation, put down that pitchfork...

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, Astartes Consul said:

Would LOVE to know if this was always planned as such or if there has been some very rapidly designed rules porting

It was always planned, they've said it will be released since saturnine was announced.

[Mandragola]

4 hours ago, apologist said:

Whether planned or not, this is good to hear. It's nice to see a clear rundown on what's in, what's not, and perhaps most critically, an explanation of why certain decisions were made.

 

It looks like a thorough list, so fair play to them for addressing things properly, rather than more vague statements that further inflame things.

 

(and on a related note, I'll happily retract my prediction that Tartaros Terminators' loss of Power Fists suggested that they were being rethought as a unit, since that's an example explicitly called out.)

 

+++Edit+++

Although now I read a bit more closely... is the implication actually that it is intentional that Tartaros won't have power fists except through this PDF?

My take is that there’s a new kit coming and the Liber was written for it. Then someone noticed there were now-illegal models still on shelves today, and they wrote this. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:19 PM by Mandragola

[Sigismund's Ghost]

It’s just more gaslighting from a truly untrustworthy company that has no regard for their customers. There is a bright side though, with the money I’m saving by not buying this hot garbage I can get a nice 3D printer.

[Gree]

So, wait, the Tartaros Terminators not having fists wasn't a typo? That was intentional?

[Son of Rawl]

8 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

The changes to wargear and units in the Libers should have never happened in the first place. Putting them into PDFs won´t let them earn the trust of the community back. The damage has been done and GW demonstrated what they think of your model collections which took you years to build and paint. 

You are right, it won't. But people will still buy the product, either out of love for the setting or how awesome the models look. GW know this, which is why they can release any book in this state.

And the more you think about it, the worse it gets. Its either;

 

A - They made a mistake, but calculated it would be far cheaper to not reprint the books and offer a PDF with an empty BP Oil Company style "We're Sorry" message. While still expecting you to pay full price for incomplete mistake filled books.

B - They fully intended for these changes, and expected you to go with it, as you would need to spend even more to make an army you have carefully crafted to be legal.

 

The reason I am angry about this, is because I have hated day one patches and DLC in video games since that started. And I will not tolerate it for a physical rulebook and product.