New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

They were scalping the box, not playing with it.

I'd laugh my ass off if they really only sold the box and not its content. 

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I would bet money (not a lot but some) this comes back in some form. 

I can only repeat myself. What a banger that would be. Each vehicle with their own individual damage chart. 

[BitsHammer]

It wouldn't be the first time someone only sold the box to something for a stupid price.

[Brother Sutek]

2 hours ago, BitsHammer said:

It wouldn't be the first time someone only sold the box to something for a stupid price.

If I knew that people would pay stupid money for my old fantasy boxes I would have kept them in better condition! I've had dumb offers for my Dogs of War boxes. 

[TheArtilleryman]

22 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

“but the important thing to know is that it’s still the game you’ve all been playing for more than a decade now.”

 

*Proceeds to outline changes that make it clear it’s definitely not the same game*
 

 

Based on those weapon profiles I 100% concur. I’m looking at them and it is like I’m reading a foreign language. Very disappointing move from GW. They could have just left the rules alone and given us a cool new box set and a campaign supplement. I am willing to bet they would still have sold buttloads.

[arnesh88]

Slept on the reveals from yesterday after reflecting some of my posts.

 

- Damage is a lot lower than I was expecting, which is good. I was worried that it was going to be unnecessarily high scaling, but it looks tame comparing Lascannon to Dreadnought/Primarch Wounds value. Melta might be the outlying factor, but I’ll burn that bridge when I cross it. Not freaking out just yet. Melta weapons may be vulnerable to movement reactions like Flame weapons were in 2nd.

 

- AP working as before is another positive for me. The change from classic AP to current version was something I was originally excited for in 8th, but came to dislike it because even at -1 to Armour Saves it made Terminators and Space Marines feel like they’re wearing paper.

 

- Removal of Rapid Fire is weird to me. They might have done that to give Tactical/Breacher Squads a feeling of being more involved than before? I guess I’m indifferent, not needed but not hating it.

 

- Melee weapons are looking good, biggest glow up to me. Initiative modifier instead of Unwieldy I think will play out more effectively and have a smoother experience. If some legion rules carry over, like Emperor’s Children, it will be easier for newer players to understand if they rewrite it as “improve the IM of melee weapons by 1”. Scaling between the different weapons also looks good so far, hopefully they keep it going.

 

- Heavy(X) is the largest mixed bag. I like the variety of it, I like how some weapons seem to have little downside to moving vs standing still (Heavy Bolter), while others have rather substantial drop off (Lascannons doing half as much damage). However, the level of mobility allowed for infantry carrying seems a little too loose. Not sure how much of this will be abused, as someone pointed out that Heavy Support Squads will likely not change how they play because of the sheer Range of them (I agree, I don’t think we’ll see a lot of lascannon squads riding around the table in rhinos). Shorter Ranged heavy weapons are getting a bigger bump from this, which is why I think the Multi-melta is the one to keep an eye out for. They were good last edition, when they were on Dreadnoughts/Bikes/Vehicles. Infantry could mass them up, but that lack of mobility and points cost made it difficult to field. This can accidentally swing it too hard in the other direction. I’m worried that it will be a boogie man unit build because I already have a unit built and painted and I might not play it often because it leads to bad game experiences. Definitely wait-and-see for me, depends on weapon profiles and points cost.

[Valkyrion]

Maybe a small trick has been missed with one of the suppression type counters.

 

quick example;

Player A - Shooting with a Tactical Squad.

Do I want to roll to hit, wound and save as normal, or do I want to Suppress?

If Suppress, you roll to hit as normal. If you score twice as many hits as there are wounds in the unit, you place a Suppressed token on the unit.

You don't roll to wound, the enemy unit does not roll to save, but the enemy unit reduces its save by 1 for each Suppressed token on it. 

Keep AP as is - 2+ save stills saves AP3, but the number you roll is reduced by 1.  So suppressed terminators are saving stuff on 3+ rather than 2+, but can still attempt a save against AP3 - that make sense?

 

I'm just thinking out loud and have given zero thought as to potential consequences!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

8 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

Maybe a small trick has been missed with one of the suppression type counters.

 

quick example;

Player A - Shooting with a Tactical Squad.

Do I want to roll to hit, wound and save as normal, or do I want to Suppress?

If Suppress, you roll to hit as normal. If you score twice as many hits as there are wounds in the unit, you place a Suppressed token on the unit.

You don't roll to wound, the enemy unit does not roll to save, but the enemy unit reduces its save by 1 for each Suppressed token on it. 

Keep AP as is - 2+ save stills saves AP3, but the number you roll is reduced by 1.  So suppressed terminators are saving stuff on 3+ rather than 2+, but can still attempt a save against AP3 - that make sense?

 

I'm just thinking out loud and have given zero thought as to potential consequences!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Was that a rule they mentioned

Edited 18 hours ago by Marshal Rohr

[Marshal Mittens]

I have been playing since early 3rd and still played some 2e games, though j skipped 7th.

 

Melta has 1 shot most vehicles in melta range, dreads in range in general, normal marines, and stands a good chance of one shooting termies that entire time, including since 1.0 HH. In 2.0 they were weaker than they historically had been against dreads, but still extremely gold when in range against everything else. 

 

I think Melta will be stronger against dreads and primarchs now, but not massively so, and otherwise will be the same as it's always been. Even in 2.0 if it got within melta range, it was probably going to penatrate you tank and an HSS or TSS was likely going to kill it, or kill a dread. 

 

The change is not really that big, impact wise. 

[Gorgoff]

6 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Maybe a small trick has been missed with one of the suppression type counters.

 

 

Whwre did you get any of that? 

6 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

I have been playing since early 3rd and still played some 2e games, though j skipped 7th.

 

Melta has 1 shot most vehicles in melta range, dreads in range in general, normal marines, and stands a good chance of one shooting termies that entire time, including since 1.0 HH. In 2.0 they were weaker than they historically had been against dreads, but still extremely gold when in range against everything else. 

 

I think Melta will be stronger against dreads and primarchs now, but not massively so, and otherwise will be the same as it's always been. Even in 2.0 if it got within melta range, it was probably going to penatrate you tank and an HSS or TSS was likely going to kill it, or kill a dread. 

 

The change is not really that big, impact wise. 

Multimelter being able to move and shoot is a big difference. There is a reason why we saw them only on Death Guard Heavy Support Squads and in armies which could infiltrate them. I'm not concerned though.

They made them a real competition for lascannons now which is a good thing. 

Hopefully they did that for all heavy weapons. 

I am especially interested in how the heavy Bolter will perform in comparison to the volkite culverine. So far it got outshined by the King of choom in any ways.

[Petitioner's City]

10 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

 

- Heavy(X) is the largest mixed bag. I like the variety of it, I like how some weapons seem to have little downside to moving vs standing still (Heavy Bolter), while others have rather substantial drop off (Lascannons doing half as much damage). However, the level of mobility allowed for infantry carrying seems a little too loose. Not sure how much of this will be abused, as someone pointed out that Heavy Support Squads will likely not change how they play because of the sheer Range of them (I agree, I don’t think we’ll see a lot of lascannon squads riding around the table in rhinos). Shorter Ranged heavy weapons are getting a bigger bump from this, which is why I think the Multi-melta is the one to keep an eye out for. They were good last edition, when they were on Dreadnoughts/Bikes/Vehicles. Infantry could mass them up, but that lack of mobility and points cost made it difficult to field. This can accidentally swing it too hard in the other direction. I’m worried that it will be a boogie man unit build because I already have a unit built and painted and I might not play it often because it leads to bad game experiences. Definitely wait-and-see for me, depends on weapon profiles and points cost.

 

So im curious how this affects things which formerly had relentless - ie jetbikes, termies, etc.

 

Do they retain this, and thus always benefit from the Heavy (x) benefit?  Even though, arguably, it's very hard to shoot from a fast moving bike, for example? (And somehow shoot the pistol too, and the other guns attached).

 

Whereas being able to move and shoot heavy weapons, and suffer a slight reduction in accuracy - it almost removes the need for relentless? 

[Captain Idaho]

Ooo was justing about twin bolters... if bolters fire twice at 24", what do combi-bolters do?

 

Cataphractii will get a firepower boost on this.

[Mandragola]

One thing to bear in mind with these WHC articles is that they always get stuff wrong, as they did with the Centurion’s initiative. That stood out but any other errors won’t be so glaring. 
 

Having said that, it’s clear this edition is going to be very different. Changing unit and weapon stats this much is already a bigger change than v1 to 2.  I think they’re saying that it’s still the same game because they’ve seen how the community pretty much universally wants only incremental changes and tidying up, to avoid a backlash. 
 

Personally though I do like most of the changes I’ve seen. A damage stat on weapons is kind of obviously a good thing, which instant death and Brutal do/did a far less good job of handing. I’m less sure about the treatment of Heavy. 
 

Having said that, in a sense these rules details don’t matter all that much if the overall feel of the game is the same. In a year we’ll probably be playing fairly similar games to what we are now, and wondering if or when we’ll get a FAQ for 3.0. 

[Astartes Consul]

11 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

I have been playing since early 3rd and still played some 2e games, though j skipped 7th.

 

Melta has 1 shot most vehicles in melta range, dreads in range in general, normal marines, and stands a good chance of one shooting termies that entire time, including since 1.0 HH. In 2.0 they were weaker than they historically had been against dreads, but still extremely gold when in range against everything else. 

 

I think Melta will be stronger against dreads and primarchs now, but not massively so, and otherwise will be the same as it's always been. Even in 2.0 if it got within melta range, it was probably going to penatrate you tank and an HSS or TSS was likely going to kill it, or kill a dread. 

 

The change is not really that big, impact wise. 

Yeah, Melta has always been a killer at close range - in 40k and 30k. It’s the delivery / survivability that requires thought. I don’t see that changing with these rules tbh. A ten man Melta support squad can delete almost any vehicle. But it’s a very soft target. 

 

Although if the Heavy rule now allows moving and firing, then Multi Melta heavy weapon squads might actually be a thing?

[redmapa]

Well they did mention drop pods as returning and with RoW potentially gone it could mean that drop pods just become a dedicated transport, so 10 man multi melta squads will soon be raining on everyone who doesn't have infiltrators pushing their lines forward. 

[Astartes Consul]

30 minutes ago, redmapa said:

Well they did mention drop pods as returning and with RoW potentially gone it could mean that drop pods just become a dedicated transport, so 10 man multi melta squads will soon be raining on everyone who doesn't have infiltrators pushing their lines forward. 

*laughs in Intercept* 

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Ooo was justing about twin bolters... if bolters fire twice at 24", what do combi-bolters do?

What they do now: being twin linked 

[Captain Idaho]

38 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

What they do now: being twin linked 

 

Also interesting to see what that does differently too.

[Gorgoff]

23 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Also interesting to see what that does differently too.

Why would they change that? You probably rhink about 40k where twin linked means more shots, yes? 

[Marshal Rohr]

Gravis will double FP and D, Twin-linked will improve FP, maybe?

Edited 5 hours ago by Marshal Rohr

[Gorgoff]

5 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Gravis will double FP and D, Twin-linked will improve FP, maybe?

Or re-rolling to hit. Don't see why they would change this. 

[Misterduch]

Frankly I don't think you can even reasonably "buff" the gravis melta weaponry compared to the meltagun, unless GW actually wants the predator/kratos melta cannons to just delete heavy tanks at 18"

 

Hell, I expect that the higher range melta's will loose some of it.

Edited 4 hours ago by Misterduch

[BitsHammer]

9 minutes ago, Misterduch said:

Frankly I don't think you can even reasonably "buff" the gravis melta weaponry compared to the meltagun, unless GW actually wants the predator/kratos melta cannons to just delete heavy tanks at 18"

 

Hell, I expect that the higher range melta's will loose some of it.

Gravis doesn't need to compete against melta vs tanks, it needs to be better than melta as an option vs TEQs. That could be accomplished with range, and maybe giving it the ability to stun or suppress targets.

[Marshal Rohr]

I imagine the new and shiny D characteristic of 3 for even the basic meltagun will allow the big melta to delete one or two terminators per turn. 

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Gorgoff said:

Why would they change that? You probably rhink about 40k where twin linked means more shots, yes? 

It doesn't actually, it currently means re roll to wound.

 

I'd honestly skip what things currently do. We're in for hefty change and just need to wait and see.

[MARK0SIAN]

A lot of people are arguing that melta traditionally one-shot dreads for a long time and this is correct. However in my view, one of the best things that 2.0 did was make dreads actually tough and survivable precisely because they couldn't be insta-killed of have their weapons destroyed etc. Now don't get me wrong, 2.0 had plenty of issues with dreads being a pain but I largely think they got their rules right, they were just way too cheap and shouldn't have been able to be taken in Talons.

 

Dreadnoughts should be these terrifying monsters on the battlefield, provided they're costed properly. I don't want a return to Dreads being easily killed or feeling feeble.