Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Joe]

Just now, StratoKhan said:

Can you elaborate on it not being complicated? I’ve looked at it this morning and at first glance it seems more complex than what came before.
 

Maybe it’s just because it’s unfamiliar so it feels complex, but I’d be interested in better understanding the perspective of someone who looked at it and thought “actually, that’s all right”.

 

I'm barely awake myself as well admittedly.  Going over it in detail;

• It is more complex, whilst being more loose with restrictions / how list-building is approached.
• You may choose from any detachment on the Force Organisation chart as you see fit - you must include a Primary Detachment. There's no limitation on Allied Detachments, and Auxiliary / Apex Detachments are limited by the number of Command / High Command Force Organisation slots filled (in any detachment) in the army list. The Lord of War detachment is limited to one.
• Given this, the way to look at it is a branching flowchart - if [X], then [Y] - which doesn't read to me as massively complicated.

Admittedly, this may not seem complicated to me, but may confuse the hell out of other people. Worst comes to worst the community can always do the right and proper thing and help each other out when it comes to understanding rules / assisting with list building.

 

 

[Aarik]

I'm really not loving this new FOC.  At first I thought it would require a ridiculous number of high command/command units (I'm going to lump them together into just "command") to unlock enough detachments to run a varied, non-spam list, but then realized that it's mitigated a bit by using your prime slots to unlock additional FOC slots, and I've broken my brain trying to figure it all out.  Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something. I hope I am.

 

I have listed some units below which I think represent a varied, unproblematic army (and omitting compulsory troops and HQ for now, since I don't think they are problematic in this example by themselves). It's easy to see that they fit into the old FOC:

 

• Command squad: No FOC slot/with master of the legion
• Contemptor: Elites
• Rapier battery: Elites
• Terminator squad: Elites
• Recon Squad: Troops
• Saber: Fast attack
• Jetbike squad: Fast attack
• Landspeeder: Fast attack
• Predator: Heavy support
• Leviathan: Heavy support

 

But it's much harder (for me at least) to figure out how the  to make a list with them in the new FOC.  Preliminarily, here is what I think the building block considerations are:

 

 

• Primary Detachment: 4 command slots (and thus 4 more detachments); 2 additional FOC slots from prime slots
• Officer cadre: 2 command slots (but only 1 detachment because the Officer Cadre itself costs 1 command slot); 1 additional FOC slot from prime slot.

 

So taking that into account, here is how the units slot into the new detachments/FOC:

• Command squad: Warlord or Combat Retinue Prime slot in Primary Detachment for additional FOC slot
• Contemptor: Heavy Support Prime slot in Primary Detachment for additional FOC slot
• Rapier battery: Support Prime slot in 1st Officer Cadre
• Terminator squad: Shock Assault
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Recon Squad: Combat Pioneer 
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Saber: 1st first strike 
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Jetbike squad: 1st first strike 
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Landspeeder: 2nd first strike 
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Predator: Armored support 
  • (unlocked by 1st Officer Cadre)
• Leviathan: Heavy Support Prime slot in 2nd Officer Cadre

 

Without using our prime slots on more FOC slots, these units would require NINE (9) total detachments.  The Primary Detachment gives enough command slots for four more detachments, so we would need to get five more through five more Officer Cadres.  Thus results in a whopping fourteen (14) command units.  Fourteen.

 

But if we use all our prime slots on more FOC slots and get get more Officer Cadres as needed, we can reduce that to six detachments for the listed units, plus two officer cadres.  This gets us down to "only" seven (7) command units being required (4 in Primary, 2 in 1st cadre, 1 in 2nd cadre).  Is this not absurd?

 

Now, I cherrypicked the units a bit to make a point about the ridiculous number of command units that can be required, but I think this is a very plausible collection of units.  It's also one that could easily be arrived at by a new/casual player who just grabs one of whatever they think is cool, rather than worrying about min-maxing or spamming units.  The type of player that GW is ostensibly aiming to please with these changes.  And even leaving that aside, trying to figure out how the  to fit them into the FOC was, without exaggeration, by far the worst time I've ever had trying to make a list.  God help anyone who tries to explain this to a new player.  Whereas 1-3 HQ, 0-4 Elites, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 Fast Attack, and 0-3 Heavy Support is super simple and easy. 

 

And it doesn't even do anything to combat spam.  Assuming contemptors still come in talons, I can get 8 for 2 command units (using my 2 Primary prime slots), or 9 for 3. Basically the same as before.   And outside of dreadnoughts, it encourages spam, or at least skew lists, by granting more detachment efficiency for the same units/types of units (e.g., 12 predators for 1 command slot).  This seems to be the exact opposite of fixing the problem.  It made normal army building needlessly complicated and did nothing to curb spam and skew.

Edited Wednesday at 09:18 AM by Aarik

[Stitch5000]

8 minutes ago, Aarik said:

• Command squad: No FOC slot/with master of the legion
• Contemptor: Elites
• Rapier battery: Elites
• Terminator squad: Elites
• Recon Squad: Troops
• Saber: Fast attack
• Jetbike squad: Fast attack
• Landspeeder: Fast attack
• Predator: Heavy support
• Leviathan: Heavy support

I think you need to go back and read what the rules are rather than assuming what they are. 

[CommissarXin]

Wanto discourage spam and skew? Refuse to play those that do so.

 

While I haven't liked everything I've seen, I have liked enough to be excited still. The FoC kinda reminds me of Legions Imperialis.

[Aarik]

8 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

I think you need to go back and read what the rules are rather than assuming what they are. 

 

I think you need to go back and read my post and the leaked rules.  What you quoted is the 2nd ed. FOC organization.  As you should have seen by the fact that it references the old FOC categories, not the new ones.  There is no assumption there.

Edited Wednesday at 09:21 AM by Aarik

[Cyrox]

50 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

I'm barely awake myself as well admittedly.  Going over it in detail;

• It is more complex, whilst being more loose with restrictions / how list-building is approached.
• You may choose from any detachment on the Force Organisation chart as you see fit - you must include a Primary Detachment. There's no limitation on Allied Detachments, and Auxiliary / Apex Detachments are limited by the number of Command / High Command Force Organisation slots filled (in any detachment) in the army list. The Lord of War detachment is limited to one.
• Given this, the way to look at it is a branching flowchart - if [X], then [Y] - which doesn't read to me as massively complicated.

Admittedly, this may not seem complicated to me, but may confuse the hell out of other people. Worst comes to worst the community can always do the right and proper thing and help each other out when it comes to understanding rules / assisting with list building.

 

 

 

Having had a proper look, its quote similar to how lists work in Bolt Action

[Brofist]

Blessed is the leaker, for He has delivered non blurry nokia phone pictures of critical parts of the booklet included in the box set. While it’s not the complete book, it has a lot of The Good Stuff we’ve all been craving to goon over. I’ve read everything and I’m posting my general thoughts below. Read on if you dare.

 

General Thoughts

Prepare to enter the realm of the groglord, all yee who dare to venture into the depths of 30k 3.0, the dankest scruntiest edition to have emerged from the deep groglands of groglore. The studio has definitely leaned into depth in this edition, which to me is both refreshing and relieving. It’s a totally new game, truly a ‘2.0’ of the heresy ruleset, though in practice it retains a lot of the things heresy players have grown to like about the system over the years under different names. There are an increased number of meaningful interactions and choices to be made for you and I can also see conscious steps taken to speed up play where possible, such as removing re-rolls and random effects in multiple areas.

 

I’m pretty cynical, but I really like what I see here for now. This said, the real test will be in equipment and army balance. Notably, 2.0 had tight core rules with pretty well-balanced equipment out the gate, but it also had huge holes in entire unit categories, little FAQ support, and the later army books were halfhearted at best. What does the future hold?

 

I don’t expect everyone to agree with this, but I do feel this edition is an attempt to scratch the itch many heresy gamers generally have: options, cinematic moments, interesting decisions at key moments, while retaining that pseudo historic narrative feel. So far it feels much more about that than say, sweating over competitive play with cardboard terrain.

 

Notable Changes

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• I really love the new FOC mechanic. It opens up wacky list creation, but encourages sticking to specific tropes by offering your choice of unit buffs, so all you neurodivergent WAACers can still min max. There is a lot of depth here, provided they don't break it over the next few years. Reminds me of a historical wargame, though it will take time for players to get used to thinking in detachments.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Big implication is that High Command Units (probably legion preators or unique characters) unlock additional types of detachments. This is consistent with past rumors, and in function likely is the same as RoW, just done a little differently. We're likely looking at little net change, as you had to use a character to unlock RoW in the past anyway. Keeping characters entirely separate from FOC mechanics would have been preferable for me, but the way its done seems totally fine.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• LoW can now be from any faction, so think of them as a big powerful units from anywhere you want them. Hopefully their rules aren’t an afterthought this time :)
  
  
  
  
  
   
• It seems that what you would previously consider to be your artificer "sergeant" is now a guy you pay points for separately inside his own 'command' slot. Put another way, sergeants are exploded out of unit profiles, though this is speculation on my part and not actually confirmed. So you can run a taxtical squad without a sergeants , for example. Its also possible there are just more opportunities to take mid-grade characters and sergeants are still around like we know.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Dreads now occupy their own detachment with other FOC mechanics that limit their numbers, though it’s possible you can still take a talon anyway. TBD.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Reactions are hard capped to a single reaction per unit, which is a very welcome change provided it isn't broken through other special rules. So far, it seems that there are no loopholes, and reactions have been reigned in.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Reactions have costs now, and the implication is that there may be more powerful reactions that get unlocked in larger games, or through other army construction shenanigans. The more points you take, the more reactions you get for your entire army, though it’s still relatively a small number. Certainly possible everything costs just 1 point as well.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• ZM players will be pleased to see the reposition reaction, a copy of the displace reaction from 2.0 ZM, enter the core rules with adjustments for balance.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Evade, is a new advanced reaction just for light infantry and cavalry, which makes them tricker to charge which is pretty cool. Throat singing intensifies.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Challenges have a lot of depth- they won't happen that often, but when they do they are a much-expanded cinematic mini game with room for different types of armies and factions to be good in different ways (not just, say, high initiative). Unlike before, you'll have the option to keep duking it out until the challenge resolves in a fatal conclusion, so you'll see less situations where two big HQs slug it out for multiple turns as the battle rages around them (though it’s still possible) and more single tense combats. Honestly, this section is a lot to take in, and it’s depth and changes from 2.0 make me suspect it’ll be ~the~ place where things slow down for most players learning the new rules. There’s also an implication that you can challenge units with armor values, which might mean dreadnoughts have armor values again, or perhaps something specific to knights or mechanicum.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• A notable change is that, if you get charged, and the other guy doesn't declare a challenge, you must expand a reaction in order to issue a challenge of your own. This is good, as it means the obligatory challenges of prior editions are much less likely, and gives the edge to charging players. Not every melee combat will have a challenge.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• There are no longer simultaneous attacks, which means in a challenge it’s no longer possible that two characters slay each other at the same time. Instead, you re-roll ties for who goes first. Personally, this removes some of the more fun and memorable moments from older editions... but it’s probably not that big a deal to house rule.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Falling Back, now covered by both the 'Routed' and global 'Tactical Statuses' effects, is slightly less punishing than before. Being charged or getting to the battlefield edge no longer automatically removes units from play. In the case of the battlefield edge, you have one last chance to roll LD and see if the unit regroups. In the case of being charged, you get to fight back, but everyone is at I1. You also regroup at the end of your turn, not the start. So, if you get charged and fall back, you'll fall back again right afterwards, putting more space between you and the unit that routed your unit.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Vehicles now have a new, unique, stat called 'repair' that lets them or nearby models with battlesmith remove status effects. Iron Nouns of all flavours rejoice.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Glancing Hits no longer doing damage is huge, making tanks much more durable, in addition to their general HP buff. This is slightly offset by damage being a thing. A vehicle that is glanced and already has a status effect will automatically take a single point of damage, which I would have preferred they had not included for simplicity sake, but them’s the breaks. Glances now give you one of the same status effects that other units get.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Looks like reserves are rolled on turn 1, like in ZM, outside of exceptions.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Fliers. God damn. Where to even start? I'm really impressed and ecstatic to see deeper and more interesting flier rules. They have a lot of potential and are totally reworked, something closer to a new unit type that shares some characteristics with vehicles. Notably, they have the same armor values everywhere and glances always remove an HP, so they are more fragile than ground vehicles. However fliers always start off the table and must be assigned a Combat Assignment that brings them onto the table out of reserves, meaning they only get shot at through advanced reactions, often forcing snap shots. The assignments themselves range from shooting at enemy units to redeploying your units. Each time they come into play, they leave, and go back into reserves... but it gets harder for them to return onto the table each time they do that. Fliers seem so useful now, adding a lot of flexibility to any army, albeit front loaded, a bit fragile, but with some cool and thematic advanced reactions.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Deep strike is reworked and is limited to just a single unit with physical restrictions on overall unit placement and size. Barring unique RoW type rules, you will see less deep strike lists. Instead, you'll probably see fliers fill gaps. I haven’t seen the rules for outflank, but I suspect its been reworked.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• The old, strange, and rarely used chart for BS values over 6 has been totally redone. Going over 6 now confers critical hit (X) and a unit’s ability to snap shoot increases in steps of 2 starting at BS2. A BS of 10+ automatically hits with an automatic crit, though in practice this probably is very rare.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Fear reduces ALL advanced characteristics. Night lord skinning sounds intensify.
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Line is now a special rule that increases a unit's ability to control objectives and claim victory points. It seems that most units can attempt to score objectives, but may not necessarily succeed, and may score lower amounts than specialist units. I hope to read more about missions and scoring soon.
  
  
   

 

 

I’ll post more as the leak floodgates inevitably keep opening

Edited Wednesday at 09:56 AM by Brofist
Typo

[Stitch5000]

44 minutes ago, Aarik said:

 

I think you need to go back and read my post and the leaked rules.  What you quoted is the 2nd ed. FOC organization.  As you should have seen by the fact that it references the old FOC categories, not the new ones.  There is no assumption there.

Apart from assuming Dread come in talons :) 

I think I follow you... 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

I just saw the vehicle rules and I don’t think they fixed tanks at all. Glancing hits remove an HP for two of the same status effects, so you’re looking at a squad of 10 walking autocannons or missile launchers stripping HP pretty easily and walking Lascannons killing it dead as normal. 

[Astartes Consul]

IMO the most visually confusing parts of the new FoC rules are the new symbols / categories of troops. Once I've wrapped my head around that, I think it should all slot into place.

[The boater]

59 minutes ago, Aarik said:

I'm really not loving this new FOC.  At first I thought it would require a ridiculous number of high command/command units (I'm going to lump them together into just "command") to unlock enough detachments to run a varied, non-spam list, but then realized that it's mitigated a bit by using your prime slots to unlock additional FOC slots, and I've broken my brain trying to figure it all out.  Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something. I hope I am.

 

I have listed some units below which I think represent a varied, unproblematic army (and omitting compulsory troops and HQ for now, since I don't think they are problematic in this example by themselves). It's easy to see that they fit into the old FOC:

 

• Command squad: No FOC slot/with master of the legion
• Contemptor: Elites
• Rapier battery: Elites
• Terminator squad: Elites
• Recon Squad: Troops
• Saber: Fast attack
• Jetbike squad: Fast attack
• Landspeeder: Fast attack
• Predator: Heavy support
• Leviathan: Heavy support

 

But it's much harder (for me at least) to figure out how the  to make a list with them in the new FOC.  Preliminarily, here is what I think the building block considerations are:

 

 

• Primary Detachment: 4 command slots (and thus 4 more detachments); 2 additional FOC slots from prime slots
• Officer cadre: 2 command slots (but only 1 detachment because the Officer Cadre itself costs 1 command slot); 1 additional FOC slot from prime slot.

 

So taking that into account, here is how the units slot into the new detachments/FOC:

• Command squad: Warlord or Combat Retinue Prime slot in Primary Detachment for additional FOC slot
• Contemptor: Heavy Support Prime slot in Primary Detachment for additional FOC slot
• Rapier battery: Support Prime slot in 1st Officer Cadre
• Terminator squad: Shock Assault
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Recon Squad: Combat Pioneer 
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Saber: 1st first strike 
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Jetbike squad: 1st first strike 
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Landspeeder: 2nd first strike 
  • (unlocked by Primary Detachment)
• Predator: Armored support 
  • (unlocked by 1st Officer Cadre)
• Leviathan: Heavy Support Prime slot in 2nd Officer Cadre

 

Without using our prime slots on more FOC slots, these units would require NINE (9) total detachments.  The Primary Detachment gives enough command slots for four more detachments, so we would need to get five more through five more Officer Cadres.  Thus results in a whopping fourteen (14) command units.  Fourteen.

 

But if we use all our prime slots on more FOC slots and get get more Officer Cadres as needed, we can reduce that to six detachments for the listed units, plus two officer cadres.  This gets us down to "only" seven (7) command units being required (4 in Primary, 2 in 1st cadre, 1 in 2nd cadre).  Is this not absurd?

 

Now, I cherrypicked the units a bit to make a point about the ridiculous number of command units that can be required, but I think this is a very plausible collection of units.  It's also one that could easily be arrived at by a new/casual player who just grabs one of whatever they think is cool, rather than worrying about min-maxing or spamming units.  The type of player that GW is ostensibly aiming to please with these changes.  And even leaving that aside, trying to figure out how the  to fit them into the FOC was, without exaggeration, by far the worst time I've ever had trying to make a list.  God help anyone who tries to explain this to a new player.  Whereas 1-3 HQ, 0-4 Elites, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 Fast Attack, and 0-3 Heavy Support is super simple and easy. 

 

And it doesn't even do anything to combat spam.  Assuming contemptors still come in talons, I can get 8 for 2 command units (using my 2 Primary prime slots), or 9 for 3. Basically the same as before.   And outside of dreadnoughts, it encourages spam, or at least skew lists, by granting more detachment efficiency for the same units/types of units (e.g., 12 predators for 1 command slot).  This seems to be the exact opposite of fixing the problem.  It made normal army building needlessly complicated and did nothing to curb spam and skew.

It can get a little absurd if you want a REALLY diverse army, but if you want to specialize you get a TON of freedom to do so army wide… they sold it as a “build an army however you like” but it’s really “build your own ROW with the ability to avoid the restrictions with a commander tax and no special rules”. We really don’t know what categories all units sit in, what vehicle/dread squadrons are still available, or what non modeled command options are carried over. If they keep the optae, then your scenario may become confusing but not nearly as ubsurd. 
 

Couple things things I really like:

-No restrictions on allied detachments, and they open their own auxiliary detachments. You can have all three primary factions in their own detachments on the battlefield
-You can functionally build a better version of army of dark compliance now… which is absolutely awesome.

-Primarch are restricted to 3k or more armies

-You have a toolkit to make some really interesting alternative armies, resembling some of the more interesting ROWs that were locked to specific legions.

-you can almost build the original FOC out of just three commanders, but you won’t have as many options

-you can seemingly play “movie marine” kill team now using centurions, which is kinda fun

 

things I don’t like:

-Commander tax rather than rules

-Spam will be everywhere, which could quickly become not fun, but will be overcome with the right group meta

 

Very curious to see the army lists now and start building lists

 

 

[Stitch5000]

12 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I just saw the vehicle rules and I don’t think they fixed tanks at all. Glancing hits remove an HP for two of the same status effects, so you’re looking at a squad of 10 walking autocannons or missile launchers stripping HP pretty easily and walking Lascannons killing it dead as normal. 

Why should light tanks survive a sizable barrage of dedicated light anti-tank weapons?

 

[Marshal Rohr]

1 minute ago, Stitch5000 said:

Why should light tanks survive a sizable barrage of dedicated light anti-tank weapons?

 

Is the Leman Russ Battle Tank a light tank  Or the Fellblade Super-Heavy Tank? Without a corresponding raise in AV (they didn’t mention doing this) the increase in HP won’t prevent the same issues in 2.0 from reoccurring with the Vehicle changes in 3.0. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

The FOC looks like some LI garbage. I'm not sure how to describe properly that one of that games biggest weaknesses is the completely open "FOC" that allows for some of the most horrendeous army compositions in any GW game I've seen. 

 

A lot of what marshal loss mentioned in bullets sound like positives. But the FOC and going straight up to progressive scoring (now with extra point snowball units and no restriction on who can score) are much higher negatives

[Marshal Rohr]

10 minutes ago, The boater said:

It can get a little absurd if you want a REALLY diverse army, but if you want to specialize you get a TON of freedom to do so army wide… they sold it as a “build an army however you like” but it’s really “build your own ROW with the ability to avoid the restrictions with a commander tax and no special rules”. We really don’t know what categories all units sit in, what vehicle/dread squadrons are still available, or what non modeled command options are carried over. If they keep the optae, then your scenario may become confusing but not nearly as ubsurd. 
 

Couple things things I really like:

-No restrictions on allied detachments, and they open their own auxiliary detachments. You can have all three primary factions in their own detachments on the battlefield
-You can functionally build a better version of army of dark compliance now… which is absolutely awesome.

-Primarch are restricted to 3k or more armies

-You have a toolkit to make some really interesting alternative armies, resembling some of the more interesting ROWs that were locked to specific legions.

-you can almost build the original FOC out of just three commanders, but you won’t have as many options

-you can seemingly play “movie marine” kill team now using centurions, which is kinda fun

 

things I don’t like:

-Commander tax rather than rules

-Spam will be everywhere, which could quickly become not fun, but will be overcome with the right group meta

 

Very curious to see the army lists now and start building lists

 

 

Calibrate your enthusiasm about the Allies, it looks like Legion Elite contains Legion Unqiue units and Allied Detachments can only unlock Auxiliary Detachments, not Apex Detachments. So if you wanted to run something like White Scars and Blood Angels Allies, you won’t be able to take Dawnbreakers or Angel’s Tears. 

[Stitch5000]

5 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Is the Leman Russ Battle Tank a light tank  Or the Fellblade Super-Heavy Tank? Without a corresponding raise in AV (they didn’t mention doing this) the increase in HP won’t prevent the same issues in 2.0 from reoccurring with the Vehicle changes in 3.0. 

Leman Russ and Fellblades both have AV14 in HH2 (and presumably they won't be weakened for HH3) on the front arc, so you can literally do nothing to them with autocannons (have we seen anything to do with Rending adding to Armour Pen rolls this edition? I haven't) and statistically won't even tickle them with missile launchers.

[Marshal Rohr]

4 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

Leman Russ and Fellblades both have AV14 in HH2 (and presumably they won't be weakened for HH3) on the front arc, so you can literally do nothing to them with autocannons (have we seen anything to do with Rending adding to Armour Pen rolls this edition? I haven't) and statistically won't even tickle them with missile launchers.

That’s where the “walking” issue comes in. 

[Stitch5000]

10 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

That’s where the “walking” issue comes in. 

I guess that's where weapons not being as good when you move comes in?

[Marshal Rohr]

4 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

I guess that's where weapons not being as good when you move comes in?

Yes. A squad of Lascannons or Missile Launchers shooting krak missiles can get the same number of shots off after walking as they can when not walking in 2.0, which will let them move and hit the vulnerable side of the tank, but they will not get the brand new twice as many lascannon shots if they move. So we just have to deal with the current amount of shots, with the new moving.

Edited Wednesday at 11:08 AM by Marshal Rohr

[Iron Father Ferrum]

GW is giving us a brand new all-plastic Fellblade model.  Given their past history of handling the Shiny New Releases, I doubt they'd try to sell us a big expensive tank if it's worthless on the tabletop because of fragility issues.

[The boater]

22 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Calibrate your enthusiasm about the Allies, it looks like Legion Elite contains Legion Unqiue units and Allied Detachments can only unlock Auxiliary Detachments, not Apex Detachments. So if you wanted to run something like White Scars and Blood Angels Allies, you won’t be able to take Dawnbreakers or Angel’s Tears. 

You can get around that with the prime trait “logistical benefit” adding an elite slot to the ally detachment. Also I’m not sure that ALL legion specifics will be in the elite section.you might get some in troops, shock assault, first strike, or combat retinue slots as well. 

[Marshal Rohr]

1 minute ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

GW is giving us a brand new all-plastic Fellblade model.  Given their past history of handling the Shiny New Releases, I doubt they'd try to sell us a big expensive tank if it's worthless on the tabletop because of fragility issues.

The issue is the new movement and deep strike rules seem to make the new vehicle rules a sidegrade instead of the upgrade pitched by marketing. They sold plenty of everything in 2.0 with Lascannon meta-spam erasing whole units each turn. 

[Marshal Rohr]

1 minute ago, The boater said:

You can get around that with the prime trait “logistical benefit” adding an elite slot to the ally detachment. Also I’m not sure that ALL legion specifics will be in the elite section.you might get some in troops, shock assault, first strike, or combat retinue slots as well. 

That’s possible from what we can see right now, but you’d be trading the ability to take a Praetor which will likely unlock whatever form Rites of War take in 3.0 and is the main draw of Allied Legion detachments, getting a nice little double Rite flavor. 

[Misterduch]

9 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Yes. A squad of Lascannons or Missile Launchers shooting krak missiles can get the same number of shots off after walking as they can when not walking in 2.0, which will let them move and hit the vulnerable side of the tank, but they will not get the brand new twice as many lascannon shots if they move. So we just have to deal with the current amount of shots, with the new moving.

 

same amount of shots that can never instantly blow up your entire tank squadron with a few lucky 6's and need, at best, 3 stationary shots to take down a single pred?

[Marshal Rohr]

2 minutes ago, Misterduch said:

 

same amount of shots that can never instantly blow up your entire tank squadron with a few lucky 6's and need, at best, 3 stationary shots to take down a single pred?

Heavy Support Squads are ten strong.