Horus Heresy New Edition, or Just Horus Hearsay?

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Well, they won't be doing that.

 

This is character-bloat-edition, and they want you to buy all the indivual models one by one to cash in more.

[MARK0SIAN]

1 hour ago, The boater said:

Well for one, you don’t have to take a praetor to be able to build a lot of the core RoWs. I don’t think Space marines were really affected too bad by this to be honest, but it really fixes a lot of the weirdness that was the solar auxiliary list, and makes list building a core mechanic instead of having different rules for different armies which is a good thing in my book. I’m stoked by it because it is more like a modern army (or actually really like a modern adaptation of the Roman legion structure) so it’s a cool nod.

 

I’d hardly call taking one or two more models is jumping through hoops… Most non abusive lists in 2.0 will easily translate to 3.0 and it opens up a ton of options for folks that are willing to get a little creative. All around win in my book

I can agree that having a standardised system across the factions is a good idea but I definitely consider it jumping through hoops to need 5+ separate detachments to field a standard army. 
 

Adding a couple of models wouldn’t be too bad if they weren’t HQs that will eat up point s quickly. Having to add a couple of hundred points of additional centurions might mean I’d have to cut a tank or dread for example. Ironically leaving me with less options. 
 

Now this is not a rhetorical or facetious question, I’m genuinely asking, what other options does it open up that weren’t available under the old system? The only one I can see is HQ spam, I honestly can’t see any others. 

Edited yesterday at 06:56 PM by MARK0SIAN

[Mogger351]

12 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

So one other take away is that, in perhaps predictable style, the preview article not actually including all of the various Detachments in full makes for a very confused picture of what this will look like.

 

Including an example of a 2.0 List transposed into the new system was helpful. But it was quite a basic list so hardly showed off how a lot of the interactions between Detachments will work. 

Does this help?

[Marshal Mittens]

35 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

So writing my piece pre-coffee and looking at it later i can see i was really unclear in what i was trying to say, to the point where i come off as talking about something else entirely lol.

 

When i said "no chance of instant kills" i meant to talk about a single dedicated anti tank gun (like a lascannon) rolling a penetrating hit and wrecking or exploding it. Instead, you'll see more volume of fire from dedicated anti tank guns stripping hull points off, in a way that is more equivalent to how tanks were killed in 8th. It wasn't meant as a commentary on how you won't be able to blast an infantrys wound pool any more with the removal of the instant death mechanic.

 

 

 

 

That's fair. I wonder if they are trying to make "as many lascannons as I can fit" not the default choice for lists. 

 

I think Lascannons will be good, but like you said, they can not destroy a tank in one shot anymore. 

 

It feels like they are making Melta a more viable option in that they are having shorter ranged, but can do 6 damage each at close range, compared to 2 for a Lascannon that can hide at the back of the board most of the match. 

 

Will be interesting to see the Melta weapon stats for Leviathans and Kratos. I wonder if a Leviathan will pick up predator or contemptor squadrons each shot. 

[firestorm40k]

24 minutes ago, Bradeh said:

You can just proxy a Sergeant or two as a Centurion or Command or similar until you can add to your army. Being dramatic for the sake of it

That's assuming I have suitable models  and over looks the fact that the 83 models I have in my army were two years worth of work. I wish it was that easy to have assembled and painted miniatures ready for use that quickly! For some people building and painting armies is a massive commitment of time and effort, so when this is adversely effected by changes of rules, you might find complaints are a bit more than 'being dramatic for the sake of it' 

[Astartes Consul]

11 minutes ago, Marshal Mittens said:

I wish they were dropping a kit that was like "Build your own Consel", maybe like a 3 pack with 1 of each armor MK and a lot of arms and weapons and heads. It feels like they are pushing leaders a lot more.

Still one of the most useful kits GW has ever produced…

 

[Marshal Rohr]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Logistical benefit is one per detachment so the max you can get is two additional slots per faction. One from Prime, One from Apex, none from auxiliary. 

Rulebook leak. It’s a once per detachment selection and only the prime and apex detachments have the circles. Allied detachment also has it but no option for high command so only a single logistical benefit. Ironically, they’ve made it harder to run the armies you could in 1 and 2 AND neutered Allies after expanding them in 2. You will be hard pressed to recreate your 2.0 list without maxing out centurions if you ran anything but tactical spam. 

[derLumpi]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mittens said:

I wish they were dropping a kit that was like "Build your own Consel", maybe like a 3 pack with 1 of each armor MK and a lot of arms and weapons and heads. It feels like they are pushing leaders a lot more.

I bought 2 MK3 Command Squads and the Melee Weapons. Guess I will use those to build cheap generic HQ guys. 

[jaxom]

Woo, work done and thoughts gathered.

 

Clearly feelings are on a continuum about the new way to build armies. I sympathize with those whose hard work in assembly and painting your dudes have been seriously impacted. My only comment in that regard is I expect Legion-specific options to still cater to specialties. a White Scar specific options make fielding all Zoomy units easier, while a jetbike-themed World Eaters army will have to make do with whatever they can muster from Crusade Primary Detachment.

 

I think Legion-agnostic perspective is key to working with this new framework absent those Legion-specific options. It is easier to build limited specialized/skew lists that imitate old Legion-specific Rites of War, while more difficult to build those same lists. Of course, that is also points dependent. It's a lot easier now to build specialized/skew lists that imitate old Legion-specific Rites of War at 1000 points because limited united slot have less impact. For example, currently 1035 gets a Centurion on Jetbike, two 10-man Jetbike Squads, and 2 5-man Jetbike Squads; and legal in the new system.

 

Just working a hypothetical...

 

Terminators in Land Raiders with Outrider Squad scouts.

Crusade Primary Detachment: Centurion in Terminator Armour - Prime Logistical Benefits

Shock Assault Secondary Detachment: 2x Terminator Squads

Armoured Fist Detachment: 2x Land Raiders

Logistical Benefit Unit: Outrider unit

960 points minimum - 1660 maximum if Land Raiders are Spartans

 

Any other hypotheticals or current armies for me to see what the system handle?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SalamandersBro]

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Does this help?

This actually helps a lot. My adhd wasn't comprehending anything. 

[No Foes Remain]

Yeah, trying to work my tired, hot brain over this new "FoC" and I don't think my 2k SoH list is legal in 3.0. Unless Delegatus or whatever RoWs turn into change things. There was someone on reddit found how many times GW said things weren't changing much but they're changing a bloody lot.

[Mogger351]

So I read the melee rules, I found the concept of srtike groups, hit tests and wound tests all to be overly wordy and the only way I can explain the whole process of melee is that it feels they wrote a dissertation to replace common sense?

[Captain Idaho]

I'd really like to stick at my Maccragge's Honour themed 1st company list, so I'm a little apprehensive about that theme.

[de Selby]

I am struggling mightily with the new army building rules.

 

If I understand correctly the system most naturally leads to armies made of only a few unit types, each filling out an auxiliary detachment. My existing armies made with a diversity of unit types under the old FOC are now illegal, and to legalise them I basically need to add centurions to get more auxiliary detachments.

 

For example my ultramarines need an auxiliary detachment for

terminators

spartans

heavy support squads

each dreadnought (!)

 

making 6 auxiliary detachments to field my current not-very-extensive collection.

 

Each centurion opens up 2 auxiliary detachments, and my general plus logistical benefit another 2. That means a max of 8 auxiliary detachments based on 4 characters in a primary detachment, and if I replace one auxiliary detachment with an apex detachment of 2 centurions and more logistical benefit (?) I can push that to 12.

 

My ultras and word bearers each need a third character model minimum, and not sure about my alpha legion.

 

I've actually quite liked a lot of the new 3.0 rules, but overall I am not seeing any benefits of this system. I'm not even sure I understand it, I only typed all this out so someone can tell me if I'm wrong.

 

edit: some of the above is wrong, logistical benefit is an extra slot, not detachment, but also not restricted to characters, so my 3-character primary detachment allows 5 auxiliary detachments plus 2 slots, and 4 characters gives 7+2, and then adding an apex detachment is +3 aux detachments and yet more slots.

This is actually really complicated IMO.

 

edit 2: still wrong, logistical benefit is once per detachment as per leaks, so 3 characters is 5 aux plus 1 slot, 4 characters is 7+1, 6 characters is 10+2.   And you lose an aux for each character you make a consul instead of a centurion.

I'm glad boater is enjoying himself though.

Edited 22 hours ago by de Selby

[The boater]

2 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Now this is not a rhetorical or facetious question, I’m genuinely asking, what other options does it open up that weren’t available under the old system? The only one I can see is HQ spam, I honestly can’t see any others. 

Lots of options: you can make a Legion artillery section, support companies, armies that blend certain RoW options, take options that we’re previously restricted to RoWs without taking a praetor, and you get to pick your limitations and that’s only talking about single faction armies. When you consider multi faction armies, you now for the first time get to take a blended army of all three main factions plus additional allies, or take more than two legions, or recreate the old armies of dark compliance, or include a single advisor from different legions, or run a squad from every legion… honestly they threw the door wide open for army selection with a few limiting factors to address the worst abuses like dreadnought spam. All this with only knowing about a third of the possible detachments that will be available. Like the only way they could have made this more open was by just saying “take what you want”

[Gorgoff]

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Rulebook leak. It’s a once per detachment selection and only the prime and apex detachments have the circles. Allied detachment also has it but no option for high command so only a single logistical benefit. Ironically, they’ve made it harder to run the armies you could in 1 and 2 AND neutered Allies after expanding them in 2. You will be hard pressed to recreate your 2.0 list without maxing out centurions if you ran anything but tactical spam. 

A high command and a centurion already allows you three auxiliary detachments. Usually people played three HQ n 2ed. That would be thee auxiliary detachments. In addition to that you could give one of the circled ones logistic benefits to get any slot into your primary detachment. 

I fail to see how that isn't enough to create most lists from 2ed?

Plus whatever the liber rules add to the table. I am sure that consuls like the forgelord or mortificator will add things as well. 

3 hours ago, firestorm40k said:

That's assuming I have suitable models  

No dude with a fancy helmet and a chansword as a sarge? Promote him to be a centurion instead. 

3 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I can agree that having a standardised system across the factions is a good idea but I definitely consider it jumping through hoops to need 5+ separate detachments to field a standard army. 
 

Adding a couple of models wouldn’t be too bad if they weren’t HQs that will eat up point s quickly. Having to add a couple of hundred points of additional centurions

A Centurion is 60 points. 

That's hardly a huge tax. And like I already said you do not need half a dozend centurions to build a decent list with different kind of things in it.

Edited yesterday at 10:10 PM by Gorgoff

[No Foes Remain]

1 hour ago, de Selby said:

I am struggling mightily with the new army building rules.

 

If I understand correctly the system most naturally leads to armies made of only a few unit types, each filling out an auxiliary detachment. My existing armies made with a diversity of unit types under the old FOC are now illegal, and to legalise them I basically need to add centurions to get more auxiliary detachments.

 

For example my ultramarines need an auxiliary detachment for

terminators

spartans

heavy support squads

each dreadnought (!)

 

making 6 auxiliary detachments to field my current not-very-extensive collection.

 

Each centurion opens up 2 auxiliary detachments, and my general plus logistical benefit another 2. That means a max of 8 auxiliary detachments based on 4 characters in a primary detachment, and if I replace one auxiliary detachment with an apex detachment of 2 centurions and more logistical benefit (?) I can push that to 12.

 

My ultras and word bearers each need a third character model minimum, and not sure about my alpha legion.

 

I've actually quite liked a lot of the new 3.0 rules, but overall I am not seeing any benefits of this system. I'm not even sure I understand it, I only typed all this out so someone can tell me if I'm wrong.

 

edit: some of the above is wrong, logistical benefit is an extra slot, not detachment, but also not restricted to characters, so my 3-character primary detachment allows 5 auxiliary detachments plus 2 slots, and 4 characters gives 7+2, and then adding an apex detachment is +3 aux detachments and yet more slots.

This is actually really complicated IMO.

 

I'm in the same ship as you. SoH, Long March. Delegatus, Apothecary, Despoiler squad, Two tactical squads, a termie squad with land raider, Seeker squad with land raider, Jetbikes, Sicaran, Laser-Vindi and a Land Raider for my despoilers.

  In 1.0 and 2.0, not a problem with the Force Org chart. In 3.0 however...

  I'd need the basic Crusade Detachement for the Hq and troops, the Armoured Fist for my Land Raiders, Tactical Support for my Apothecary, Armoured Support for the Sicaran and Vindicator, Combat Pioneer for my Seekers (probably?), Shock Assault for my Termies and First Strike for my Jet Bikes. I'd need all bar the new Heavy Support to make my 'all-rounder' 2k list usable which isn't possible since basic Centurions only allow 2 choices of detachments and I need 6 out of 7 extra to make it work!

Edited 23 hours ago by No Foes Remain

[Unknown Legionnaire]

As someone who ~mostly~ tends to bring only one HQ, rarely two, if ever, I still find the character tax system to be unnecessary and the new FOC to be convoluted.

But I will withhold final judgment until I've seen the 'Libers', especially those for non-Astartes factions.

 

I agree with some people on the leaked melee rules, they seem to be overly 'wordy'. And we all know the more words there are, the more people tend to misinterpret or 'juggle' things around.

 

The psychic rules I found to be rather neat ... until I noticed biomancy now grants +2 STR and +2 T  ... like :cuss:

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ive only looked at the warcom article, so could someone who's ready and understand the leaks clarify some points from the article?

 

There are various detachments that present different combinations of units.

 

Each combination presented is merely the maximum amount you can take per detachment; there is no hard compulsory section to fill out. If you do choose to fill them out, you get some buffs and/or options.

 

However, to get access to the auxiliary detachments, you need to take take a high/command slot per(ish). Apex detachments are unlocked from high command slots in the same way.

 

So, effectively, it is minimum one hq per 1/2 selections of units you want, repeat until happy.

 

That... basically sounds like 8th editions detachments from a cynical list building side. It's almost as permissive as LIs, though at least there's some tax in heresy. That being said, maybe the cool bonuses from hitting the prime slots make it boring to be cynical? Or you'll lose to progressive scoring snowball if you only take Spartans and Centurions? 

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, The boater said:

Lots of options: you can make a Legion artillery section, support companies, armies that blend certain RoW options, take options that we’re previously restricted to RoWs without taking a praetor, and you get to pick your limitations and that’s only talking about single faction armies. When you consider multi faction armies, you now for the first time get to take a blended army of all three main factions plus additional allies, or take more than two legions, or recreate the old armies of dark compliance, or include a single advisor from different legions, or run a squad from every legion… honestly they threw the door wide open for army selection with a few limiting factors to address the worst abuses like dreadnought spam. All this with only knowing about a third of the possible detachments that will be available. Like the only way they could have made this more open was by just saying “take what you want”

 

I think it lets people make more thematic armies, but at the cost of actual unit options. @de Selby, @No Foes Remain, and @firestorm40k provided good examples of this.

 

The HQ requirements are extremely narrative. A chapter was made of two battalions each led by a Commander. A battalion was made of companies. The smallest strategic unit was unnamed in the Principia Bellicosa: two Tactical Squads and a Support Squad, led by a Lieutenant. Personally, that's my largest gripe. I wish one of the Troop slots in the Crusade Primary Detachment had been a Tactical Support slot.

 

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Ive only looked at the warcom article, so could someone who's ready and understand the leaks clarify some points from the article?

 

There are various detachments that present different combinations of units.

Correct.

 

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Each combination presented is merely the maximum amount you can take per detachment; there is no hard compulsory section to fill out. If you do choose to fill them out, you get some buffs and/or options.

Kind of. Each combination presented is the maximum amount of slots. Some slots have a spikey corona and units taken in those slots get a buff and/or options.

For example, you don't need to take/fill any of the four Troop slots as part of the Crusade Primary Detachment, but if you do then it goes in the spikey slot. This makes it a Prime Troop unit. Prime units get to choose a bonus. Two examples we know is Master Sergeant, which improves the unit sergeant, and Logistical Benefits, which lets gives your army an additional unit slot of almost any type.

 

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

However, to get access to the auxiliary detachments, you need to take take a high/command slot per(ish). Apex detachments are unlocked from high command slots in the same way.

Correct. Each Command slot filled unlocks an Auxiliary Detachment for your army. Plain Centurions have a bonus of unlocking an additional Auxiliary Detachment when they are in a Command slot. A filled High Command slot can unlock an Auxiliary Detachment or an Apex Detachment.

 

There are also three special detachments that can be taken with specific criteria and are not connected to the normal process. Warlord detachment requires 3k point game size gives a Primarch slot, a Command Retinue slot, and a Tank/Heavy Transport slot. Lord of War detachment gives 2 LoW slots, but they can only be up 25% of your army's points cost. Allied Detachment, not 100% sure on the requirements, blurry picture.

 

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

So, effectively, it is minimum one hq per 1/2 selections of units you want, repeat until happy.

I think it'll come down to what sort of army you are making and what you're willing to take. For example, a Praetorian, Centurion, and Combat Retinue can unlock 4 Auxiliary Detachments. Use that to unlock Armoured Fist, Armoured Support, Tactical Support, and Shock Assault. That's 2 HQ, a Command Squad, and then up to 18 units; or 9 units per HQ.

 

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

That... basically sounds like 8th editions detachments from a cynical list building side. It's almost as permissive as LIs, though at least there's some tax in heresy. That being said, maybe the cool bonuses from hitting the prime slots make it boring to be cynical? Or you'll lose to progressive scoring snowball if you only take Spartans and Centurions? 

Personally, I see it like the previous FOC except one has to commit harder to a specific theme (fast attack, elite, heavy support) instead of being given a relatively even spread. 

[Irate Khornate]

33 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Ive only looked at the warcom article, so could someone who's ready and understand the leaks clarify some points from the article?

 

There are various detachments that present different combinations of units.

 

Each combination presented is merely the maximum amount you can take per detachment; there is no hard compulsory section to fill out. If you do choose to fill them out, you get some buffs and/or options.

 

However, to get access to the auxiliary detachments, you need to take take a high/command slot per(ish). Apex detachments are unlocked from high command slots in the same way.

 

So, effectively, it is minimum one hq per 1/2 selections of units you want, repeat until happy.

 

That... basically sounds like 8th editions detachments from a cynical list building side. It's almost as permissive as LIs, though at least there's some tax in heresy. That being said, maybe the cool bonuses from hitting the prime slots make it boring to be cynical? Or you'll lose to progressive scoring snowball if you only take Spartans and Centurions? 

So you've got the gist of it but there is one thing I need to correct, high command unlocks either an auxiliary or Apex detachment. Command slots unlock auxiliary detachments only. Also centurions unlock two auxiliaries.

 

You can also unlock detachments using the prime slots which are the slots with the triangles around them, but it costs you upgrading that unit and you can only take one pick per detachment. So if you use your command slot to get logistical benefits you cannot use your troop slot to do the same. That one's more from the leaked rule pages but paints a fuller picture.

 

Overall if you want to take a varied list it's going to punish you unfortunately. I took one of my 2.0 lists and translated it to 3.0 and I wound up bringing 4hq's to make the detachment system work. And two of those were centurions. Admittedly it brings three dreadnoughts, but man it's more than a little silly that a dreadnought takes one whole detachment by itself

[TheTrans]

So, did charging cop negatives for moving through difficult terrain in 2.0? As it sure doesn't now! 

[Unknown Legionnaire]

9 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

So, did charging cop negatives for moving through difficult terrain in 2.0? As it sure doesn't now! 

 

It netted you -2 movement if you didn't have 'Move through Cover' and would have you strike at Initiative 1 if you didn't have Frag grenades or similiar equipment.

[TheTrans]

They just keep removing negatives on decision points man.. this is killing me.. 

[BitsHammer]

3 hours ago, Unknown Legionnaire said:

As someone who ~mostly~ tends to bring only one HQ, rarely two, if ever, I still find the character tax system to be unnecessary and the new FOC to be convoluted.

But I will withhold final judgment until I've seen the 'Libers', especially those for non-Astartes factions.

 

I agree with some people on the leaked melee rules, they seem to be overly 'wordy'. And we all know the more words there are, the more people tend to misinterpret or 'juggle' things around.

 

The psychic rules I found to be rather neat ... until I noticed biomancy now grants +2 STR and +2 T  ... like

 

 

Sadly I've seen people try and misinterpret less wordy rules over the years too so you really can't make rules that won't have someone getting them wrong. And that's not even getting into the people who looked at 5th ed's rules and tried to argue that Wraithguard couldn't shoot because they didn't have eyes.