Discussion “Alternate 40K timeline” or “In an alternate future, there is still only war…”

[Kaede45]

Hey everybody! It’s been a hot minute since I posted on here & wouldn’t you know it, I’m posting another big “what if” style discussion. Anyway, onto the topic at hand:

 

So in my pursuit of creating my own custom Christian faction in 40K, I started thinking of an idea concerning a sort of “alternate history 40K/30K.” It started with my assertion of the 11^th Primarch being the (mortal) progenitor of my faction. I wanted to give depth to his relationships with his brothers, but my limited understanding of the other Primarchs makes that kind of difficult. In fact, many times when I’m trying to think of how any characters I make would interact with important characters from the canon, it becomes rather difficult to determine how realistic certain aspects might be.

 

From there, a thought began to form. I’ve seen that we have a Legio Bolter & Chainsword, as well as a B&C fanthology section, which to me indicates that I may not be the only person whose wanted to make OCs interact with canon characters. So I had the thought: What if some people made a sort of “alternate history” for 40K?

 

Imagine this: in a parallel timeline, the Emperor creates 20 Primarchs, but they are not the ones we know today! This reality diverges greatly from the canon history of 40K, but certain events still happen. The Primarchs are still scattered, there is still a “Heresy” led by one of them, the Emperor still ends up entombed upon the Golden Throne, etc., but the 20 Primarchs are all completely different characters! Maybe the Emperor was able to create one or more daughters. Maybe the legions had different intended purposes. Maybe the heresy took a greater or lesser toll on the galaxy at large. The possibilities are near endless!

 

Then I had an idea built off that: what if that was the premise of a tournament/league? A 20 player league where each player invents their own chapter/legion of Astartes & duel it out to determine the fate of this alternate timeline! Admittedly this setup might work better as a “Horus Heresy” league, but I’m sure we can find ways to finagle it to 40K. It could be a cool way to showcase other people’s custom chapters/legions in a setting that doesn’t have to strictly adhere to the canon (& possibly the expectations) of the 30K/40K universe. Naturally there would be certain rules for building said fan-factions & there would have to be an equal number of loyalist players & traitor players with everyone agreeing which side they’ll be playing, etc.

 

Anyway, I think I've made this topic long enough. I’m sure this would be quite the undertaking either way you slice it. Whether it be a collaborative story or a tournament/league of some kind, the amount of planning these would need is likely more trouble than it’s worth, but it would be interesting nonetheless. Let me know what y’all think. Is this something worth pursuing or am I just completely off my rocker again? I wanna know what others think of this.

 

As always, thank you very much for your time & God bless!

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I've moved this from Work in Progress, as it seems a better fit here.  If @Kaede45 has a convincing reason why its better in WIP, let me know and I can move it back.

[Kaede45]

1 hour ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

I've moved this from Work in Progress, as it seems a better fit here.  If @Kaede45 has a convincing reason why its better in WIP, let me know and I can move it back.

No, I agree with the moving. It’s definitely more a “let’s discuss this” than “project actively being worked on.”

Thank you very much.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I haven't seen any fan projects where they have replaced the primarchs, but you might want to check out the Dornian Heresy which is on old fan project that at least partially originated here at B&C (It was before my time here, but that's my understanding).

 

Basically, instead of Horus and the 40K traitor legions revolting against the Emperor, its Dorn and all the canon loyal legions that do so - in other words, it swaps all the traitor and loyalist legions.

 

I'm mostly aware of it in that its lead to some truly fantastic conversions and kit bashes of chaos white scars and the like.  Well worth a google search for "dornian heresy" and see what that digs up.

Edited September 9 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Brother Tyler]

This is the kind of project that I recommend being conducted as either a blog or a club. Either method allows for discussion via comments, so you are able to engage with other members and solicit their feedback and input; and you are welcome to create outreach discussions here in the Forums to give visibility of the project and its progress to the wider community. If you envision the project being conducted as a largely solo effort (even with input/feedback from other members), a blog is appropriate. On the other hand, a club is more appropriate if you envision the project being conducted as a collaborative effort.

 

We used to conduct this kind of project in the + SPECIAL PROJECTS + forum, but the Blogs and Clubs feature have proven to be superior to the Forums for this kind of thing. As a result, the + SPECIAL PROJECTS + forum has become reply-only, with plans to use it as an index to blogs and clubs in which special projects are being conducted (we're not quite there yet, however).

[Kaede45]

On 9/8/2025 at 6:28 PM, Brother Tyler said:

This is the kind of project that I recommend being conducted as either a blog or a club. Either method allows for discussion via comments, so you are able to engage with other members and solicit their feedback and input; and you are welcome to create outreach discussions here in the Forums to give visibility of the project and its progress to the wider community. If you envision the project being conducted as a largely solo effort (even with input/feedback from other members), a blog is appropriate. On the other hand, a club is more appropriate if you envision the project being conducted as a collaborative effort.

 

We used to conduct this kind of project in the + SPECIAL PROJECTS + forum, but the Blogs and Clubs feature have proven to be superior to the Forums for this kind of thing. As a result, the + SPECIAL PROJECTS + forum has become reply-only, with plans to use it as an index to blogs and clubs in which special projects are being conducted (we're not quite there yet, however).

This is actually a really good idea, but before I try to do that, I’d like to see if anyone would even be willing to give it the time of day. A lot of my ideas don’t get much traction & my fickle attention span means that I’m likely to lose interest &/or move on to the next idea I get even if there is enough people showing interest. I’m more of an “idea guy” than a project leader, which is one of the reasons why many of my attempted projects often fall apart rather quickly. For stories, I can make an outline, including a beginning & an ending, but the middle parts tend to be my weakest point. In models, I have several units still on their sprues & still I buy more!

 

I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m better at coming up with the ideas & letting others use them, but also I don’t think I’d be able to perform such an undertaking as this without knowing that enough people would be interested that it wouldn’t die before it even starts.

 

Anyway, thank you again & God bless!

[ThePenitentOne]

Interesting idea, and I'm not knocking it, but it illustrates and interesting point for me: The thread is called "Alternate 40k Timeline" but the only proposed change is to Marines.

 

And look, I know that:

 

1) Marines are the signature faction, and without them, GW would not survive

2) B&C was originally a Marines only club, and many people here are still here exclusively because of Marines

3) There is some Marine stuff that even I like

 

But despite all that, 40k = Marines is still a point of view that offends me. I like 30k Mechanicus 10-100x better than 40k Mechanicus, and yet I refuse to play 30k for its lack of Xenos. And if 40k ever ditches Xenos, I will ditch 40k.

[gaurdian31]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentOne said:

Interesting idea, and I'm not knocking it, but it illustrates and interesting point for me: The thread is called "Alternate 40k Timeline" but the only proposed change is to Marines.

 

And look, I know that:

 

1) Marines are the signature faction, and without them, GW would not survive

2) B&C was originally a Marines only club, and many people here are still here exclusively because of Marines

3) There is some Marine stuff that even I like

 

But despite all that, 40k = Marines is still a point of view that offends me. I like 30k Mechanicus 10-100x better than 40k Mechanicus, and yet I refuse to play 30k for its lack of Xenos. And if 40k ever ditches Xenos, I will ditch 40k.

The Imperium is the perspective we are given to look into the universe, whether it is 30k or 40k. If the Marines in 30k change then the Heresy changes. If the Heresy changes then the galaxy as a whole changes. We could have the Imperium working with Xenos factions, it could be a much smaller Imperium that is being preyed on more heavily by Xenos factions instead of Chaos. A lot of things change when you change Marines.  Would you prefer a 40k timeline without the Imperium or Marines at all? Would that even be 40k anymore?

 

Edit: Just wanting to add, I am just asking out of curiosity, not trying to make this an attack or call you out or something like that.

Edited Thursday at 01:31 PM by gaurdian31

[Kaede45]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentOne said:

Interesting idea, and I'm not knocking it, but it illustrates and interesting point for me: The thread is called "Alternate 40k Timeline" but the only proposed change is to Marines.

 

And look, I know that:

 

1) Marines are the signature faction, and without them, GW would not survive

2) B&C was originally a Marines only club, and many people here are still here exclusively because of Marines

3) There is some Marine stuff that even I like

 

But despite all that, 40k = Marines is still a point of view that offends me. I like 30k Mechanicus 10-100x better than 40k Mechanicus, and yet I refuse to play 30k for its lack of Xenos. And if 40k ever ditches Xenos, I will ditch 40k.

I can see that. “The Imperium is more than just the Space Marines & 40K is more than just the Imperium” is definitely a valid position to take. It’s one of the things that makes it difficult to forge my “cosmopolitan faction” as we're given little info to work with concerning even the main Xenos factions.

 

The 20 new Primarchs was the starting point of this whole thought experiment, but I did have the thought of taking it even further & saying “what if most of the named characters of the setting were different?” & this would definitely broaden the scope of this alternate reality, but it would also come with its own set of issues.

 

Like I said though, I don’t want to start something thats just gonna end up being “stillborn.” I want to really gauge how much interest there is in something like this before any major work is underway. I definitely would love to change more than just the Primarchs of this setting, maybe even going so far as to change how, say the Tyrannids, are organized or have the Imperium’s relationship with the Aeldari be much more cooperative, but if I’m the only person working on this, then it will not survive long…

[ThePenitentOne]

@gaurdian31

 

I definitely DO NOT want a game without Imperium or without Marines. 

 

I wouldn't mind the Marines occupying less space in the IP- so maybe take 25% of the Black Library books that revolve around marines and make them revolve around factions that have fewer books to kinda balance the scales. Maybe they could have told the story of the Horus heresy in 20 novels instead of 64. Maybe we could take a handful of Joy Toy marines and have some Joy Toy Eldar instead.

 

When it comes to 40k models, the Marine range is HUGE, but I'm not a fan of fixing things by taking away options; I like fixing things by ADDING stuff. So if there are 150 Marine kits and 20 Drukhari kits, maybe in 11th we use Guard or Sisters as the Imperial part of the starter sets, each marine chapter can get a single model for the edition and we get 10 Khorne kits, 10 Tzeentch kits, 10 Slaanesh kits, 10 Drukhari kits and every other NOT marine faction gets 2-5.

 

Do that, and Marines will STILL have twice as many kits as most factions.

 

Maybe when it comes time for a new edition of Heresy, GW could decide to not make that, and instead, continue to support the current edition for three additional years with modest releases while releasing a Xeno vs. Xeno game that has NO Imperials in it. They'd only need a single 3 year edition of it, THEN they could do a Heresy update, and 3 years later do a different Xeno vs Xeno. 

 

Most importantly, if GW ever brings back BFG ABSOLUTELY DO NOT make it a Heresy era game, and while they're at it, maybe they could advance the timeline on Legions Imperialis and add some Xenos. It was a colossal mistake to make that a Heresy game- I would have spent SOOO much money on it if included Xenos, but instead I haven't bought a damn thing, and I don't even bother reading Warcom or White Dwarf articles about it- without Xenos, it's absolutely dead to me. 

 

Again, I know that marines are necessary to keep GW running- I get it. And look, I used to LOVE marines in 2nd ed when there were almost as many Guard and Eldar Kits as there were marines. Marines are an EXCELLENT set of factions with awesome depth and detail... But they currently feel dull as heck to me because the entire universe has revolved around them for two and a half decades (because, again, in the first decade, the imbalance between the number of marine kits and kits from other factions was much more reasonable).

 

Marines are like Sweet Child of Mine: they are the awesome Guns and Roses song that radio overplay made me HATE while other awesome GNR tunes like Mr. Brownstone and Night Train STAYED awesome because they weren't played once an hour every hour on every station for MONTHS. To this day, Sweet Child is the ONLY GNR song you will EVER hear on the radio. (Actually, once in a blue moon you'll get their cover of Knockin on Heaven's Door).

 

To complicate things even more, I LOVE both Deathwatch and Grey Knights, even in the current Marine bloated state of affairs, because I see them as INQUISITION factions, not Marine factions. In fact, I suggested NOT Marines as the Imperial starter, but you know, if they were Deathwatch or Grey Knights I could really get behind that.

 

Edit: Sorry for the Tangent Kaede- didn't mean to jump your thread.

Edited Friday at 12:16 AM by ThePenitentOne

[gaurdian31]

@ThePenitentOne I definitely support that. I still like marines, but man I would love all of the other factions to get half the support that marines get. Also, apologies as well Kaede, did not mean to highjack your thread. I like your idea of an AU with completely different primarchs and other major players getting a big change up. What about having the necrons start waking up early or the hivefleets make it the galaxy early? That would certainly change things drastically as well.

[ThePenitentOne]

It makes me wonder what kind of Primarch I'd design.

 

I'd probably lean into something else that already exists... So for example, what if there was a Primarch who could use Acts of Faith like Sisters? His chapter would be Sororitas allies, and while you wouldn't want all of the units to have AoF, maybe one of the Primarchs rules is that you can pick 3 other units in the army to also have AoF. Visually, they would have a fair bit of holy iconography- it sort of creeps into the Black Templar design space, so you'd need to do it carefully, but it could be cool if properly executed.

 

Or maybe there's a Blank Primarch, and his Chapter has Blanks in place of Librarians. Core psychic rules would have to come up a bit to make this really shine- blanks felt cool and special in previous editions, but with the gutting of psychic rules, they're just sort of.... Ordinary now.

 

Maybe a really Cybered up Primarch- again, creeps close to some existing Chapters, so it would need to be designed carefully... But I'm talking enough augmetics that it looks like a Dominus in power armour.

 

A beast riding Primarch would be cool.

 

 

[Kaede45]

8 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

It makes me wonder what kind of Primarch I'd design.

 

I'd probably lean into something else that already exists... So for example, what if there was a Primarch who could use Acts of Faith like Sisters? His chapter would be Sororitas allies, and while you wouldn't want all of the units to have AoF, maybe one of the Primarchs rules is that you can pick 3 other units in the army to also have AoF. Visually, they would have a fair bit of holy iconography- it sort of creeps into the Black Templar design space, so you'd need to do it carefully, but it could be cool if properly executed.

 

Or maybe there's a Blank Primarch, and his Chapter has Blanks in place of Librarians. Core psychic rules would have to come up a bit to make this really shine- blanks felt cool and special in previous editions, but with the gutting of psychic rules, they're just sort of.... Ordinary now.

 

Maybe a really Cybered up Primarch- again, creeps close to some existing Chapters, so it would need to be designed carefully... But I'm talking enough augmetics that it looks like a Dominus in power armour.

 

A beast riding Primarch would be cool.

All of those ideas are great, ESPECIALLY the last one! I will always approve of more beast riders!

10 hours ago, gaurdian31 said:

@ThePenitentOne I definitely support that. I still like marines, but man I would love all of the other factions to get half the support that marines get. Also, apologies as well Kaede, did not mean to highjack your thread. I like your idea of an AU with completely different primarchs and other major players getting a big change up. What about having the necrons start waking up early or the hivefleets make it the galaxy early? That would certainly change things drastically as well.

Those sound really cool. I feel like the Tyrannids definitely need someone to give them something to justify them being an apocalyptic threat, but also not enough to make everyone else join forces to wipe them out. The Necrons would also be cool to see more care & attention given to.

One of my ideas was: what if the Emperor’s entombment on the Golden Throne was seen as less “noble sacrifice” & more “karmic justice?”

Basically the Primarchs turn on him after learning some terrible truth about his methods & actions. The loyalists are then loyal to the Emperor’s ideal & the Imperium rather than the Emperor himself & the heresy becomes about what to do with the Imperium’s “rotten” foundation, with the traitors (still influenced by Chaos) believing that the only cure is to burn it all to the ground & the loyalists trying to protect humanity. The traitors would still be evil, but now they’d be seen as tragic, victims of the Master of Mankind’s ego, whose sacrifice is debated on whether he did it out of love, guilt, a desire to right his wrongs or simply for his own ego.

[ThePenitentOne]

Interestingly enough, I think that could also work as a Heresy 2.0 in addition to alternate timeline. I had wondered if the introduction of Primaris was going to lead to a modern Heresy, but it's looking less and less like that will happen.  A second Heresy would be an intersting Chaos plotline- different from the Black Crusade model. It would allow for corrupted versions of some of the new units- like new Hellbrutes based on Redemptor Dreads- Perhaps even a sculpt for each Legion. I don't like marine hover tanks enough to want corrupted versions, but some Chaos Aggressors, Phobos or Outriders could be cool.

 

Just a thought. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

In my humblest opinion, you'd have to have serious Primaris Derangement Syndrome to think they'd have lead to a second heresy. While the nerdrage from their introduction was truly immense by some, GW was never gonna go down such an incendiary path. It just reads like the fanfiction you'd hear by those who absolutely could not jive with their introduction.

[ThePenitentOne]

6 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

In my humblest opinion, you'd have to have serious Primaris Derangement Syndrome to think they'd have lead to a second heresy. While the nerdrage from their introduction was truly immense by some, GW was never gonna go down such an incendiary path. It just reads like the fanfiction you'd hear by those who absolutely could not jive with their introduction.

There were snippets of lore about some chapters being reluctant to take Primaris reinforcements when they were first introduced, and the Torchbearer Fleet Crusade rules actually created a multigame campaign process for acclimatizing Grey-shield Primaris into existing Chapters- a process that was not always smooth depending on how the games played out.

 

But again, people who only play stand-alone, 2k matched pickup games would never actually engage with those rules, despite them being some of the coolest rules published in the edition.

[N1SB]

9 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

In my humblest opinion, you'd have to have serious Primaris Derangement Syndrome...

 

Brother Reinhard, it's actually really good you raised this point and you did so well.

 

Because looking back, that nerd rage has been incorporated into the lore exactly as like the Brother Penitent said...but it's like such a meta-joke.  You said fan fiction, it was fiction ABOUT the fandom's reaction.  To their credit, the Black Library writers incorporated it well, like there was prejudice against the Greyshields and there was this early Primaris Dark Angel Interrogator Chaplain that just had a nervous breakdown because his heavy indoctrination couldn't even accept the concept of the Fallen.

 

But it's a reminder of what 40k is.  Put another way, would it be grimdark if there wasn't Primaris Derangement Syndrome?

 

In fact...the Imperium might be one giant Derangement Syndrome, about everything.  It's the only thing holding it together.

 

And that leads to another really great point:

 

On 9/13/2025 at 7:12 AM, Kaede45 said:

One of my ideas was: what if the Emperor’s entombment on the Golden Throne was seen as less “noble sacrifice” & more “karmic justice?”

 

...The traitors would still be evil, but now they’d be seen as tragic, victims of the Master of Mankind’s ego, whose sacrifice is debated on whether he did it out of love, guilt, a desire to right his wrongs or simply for his own ego.

 

I bring good news that support you idea.  You don't have to change a thing.

 

What you described has been an ongoing theme from even the start of the Horus Heresy novels with Horus Rising, but it was mid-Siege of Terra with Saturnine where it ramps up.  Turns out throughout the millennia, the Emperor had these friends around him who gradually thought he was going too far and were trying to intervene.  They were all immortal (not invincible, but didn't age) Perpetuals like him: Ollanius Persson, Erda and, at the end, even Malcador, who all questioned "The Great Work".

 

In short, what you suggested isn't even an alternate timeline.  It IS this timeline.

 

It's not just the traitors that are tragic figures, the loyalists were, too.  Everyone is.

 

The Emperor still made a sacrifice.  It's also karmic justice, maybe even fate.  That's all THIS timeline.

 

But perhaps a word you guys understand better than me would fit: this is the Emperor's penance.

 

On 9/11/2025 at 9:28 PM, gaurdian31 said:

A lot of things change when you change Marines.  Would you prefer a 40k timeline without the Imperium or Marines at all? Would that even be 40k anymore?

 

Also a really good thing you mentioned that, as I finished the Horus Heresy series and am re-reading Horus Rising again.  An old man is talking to a Marine, the very one who was there when Horus killed the Emperor...BOTH times, "You could have left us alone."  His simple statement is sinister with your question in mind.

 

The most grimdark scenario might not be what we have now, where the Emperor tried, and failed, so everything sucks.

 

The most grimdark scenario might be if he had succeeded, and everything still sucks...because none of it even mattered.

 

The Emperor, the Legions, the Primarchs could have left everything alone, and it'd have turned out about the same, maybe.

 

But your point rings true to me at least.  Because if Marines didn't exist...which I personally estimate to be half of Games Workshop's business now...GONE, then likely GW wouldn't exist, probably Warhammer in general would have been discontinued...ergo, there would not even be 40k anymore.  I think you're certainly right in that regard.

 

Edit - I just remembered the quote, "The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed."  That's THIS.  I understand it now.

 

All of it.

 

+++++

 

Brother Kaede, just to make sure you caught this, your ideas are good, you don't even need to consider an alternate timeline.

 

This one works JUST fine, if anything, your ideas might capture the original concept of 40k better than the current direction.

Edited yesterday at 01:31 AM by N1SB

[Marshal Reinhard]

Some minor snippets of strife does not a heresy 2.0 make.

[Kaede45]

On 9/13/2025 at 6:17 PM, N1SB said:

Brother Kaede, just to make sure you caught this, your ideas are good, you don't even need to consider an alternate timeline.

 

This one works JUST fine, if anything, your ideas might capture the original concept of 40k better than the current direction.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I will say that one of the main pillars of this idea is the fact that most of the central characters (namely the Primarchs) would be swapped for fan-created characters. Same story, but the beats of said story are likely to be altered given the change in cast.

 

In regards to my idea concerning the Emperor, it was more in the context of the wider Imperium. Like the Emperor is not as revered by most imperial citizens as he is in the cannon timeline. The Imperial Cult would still most likely exist, but it might not have as much power & influence. Perhaps a different religion takes its place. Maybe the loyalist Primarchs are worshipped instead? Maybe some other god? Perhaps the Emperor is viewed as a saint instead? Whatever the case, it would be interesting to see an Imperium that follows the ideals of the Emperor, but rejects his methodology or tries to distance themselves from his influence.

 

But I digress. Thank you for your feedback & God bless.