Kill Team Dead Silence. Tau vs Space Wolves

[irlLordy]

No instigator carbine, unless you bring the full squad kinda sucks if you're building for kill team. Same with the missing absolver bolt pistol.

[Karhedron]

I feel the need for a few spare Reiver bodies to top up the KT to the full 10-man size and go max-plas.

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, irlLordy said:

No instigator carbine, unless you bring the full squad kinda sucks if you're building for kill team. Same with the missing absolver bolt pistol.

The Instigator sucks anyway, but it's odd just like with the Plasma Gun being limited to one at both squad sizes. 

[Northern Walker]

Why, yes, I am a plasma pistol enjoyer, thanks for asking GW.

[Trokair]

6 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

Faction Packs for Tau and Space Wolves now have the Kill Teams, as well as the Munitorum Field Manual update for points.

 

Stealth Suits are locked to 5 as had been feared, though Wolf Scouts can go up to 12 (albeit two of them being the lowercase wolves).

 

 

My two sqauds of 6 XV15 and one squad of 6 XV25 are rather sad. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

Huh... I only now realized, millions of years after everyone else, that they're using traditional plasma guns... I think this might be the first we've seen of unit in Mk X armor using an older design weapon, barring the occasional boltgun on named a character? What designs are the plasma pistols?

[Karhedron]

13 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

What designs are the plasma pistols?

 

This is the only picture I have seen so far. It is a bit end-on but it looks like a Primaris design plasma pistol I think.

 

[Morovir]

5 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

The Instigator sucks anyway, but it's odd just like with the Plasma Gun being limited to one at both squad sizes. 

It's because the Instigator is the alternative build for the Pack Leader model, so per strict adherence to the instructions, as you have to have a pack leader within the first 6 models, you will only be able to build the Instigator with the second lot of 6.

[Wispy]

43 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

This is the only picture I have seen so far. It is a bit end-on but it looks like a Primaris design plasma pistol I think.

 

58 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Huh... I only now realized, millions of years after everyone else, that they're using traditional plasma guns... I think this might be the first we've seen of unit in Mk X armor using an older design weapon, barring the occasional boltgun on named a character? What designs are the plasma pistols?

 

Contemporary, not classic. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

55 minutes ago, Morovir said:

It's because the Instigator is the alternative build for the Pack Leader model, so per strict adherence to the instructions, as you have to have a pack leader within the first 6 models, you will only be able to build the Instigator with the second lot of 6.

 

You actually don't have to have a Pack Leader. The specialists are all limited to 1, but you can skip any of them including the Pack Leader. The only unit that's an auto-include is the Wolf. But otherwise, you could have a full pack of Hunters if you wanted.

 

(EDIT: I should be more clear about that last statement - yes, you COULD have a full pack of Hunters + Wolf (not sure why you'd ever want to), but for WYSIWYG purposes you'd either need to buy two Wolf Scout boxes, kitbash with some external bits, or do a "counts as" because even though both the Pack Leader and Frosteye are optional, that base model they share doesn't include an official third build option for a Hunter, nor would there be any leftover Hunter bits to scavenge from within the kit if you built the Hunter option for all four of the other models. You're not forced to take the Pack Leader or Frosteye, and converting that model to a Hunter would be simple, BUT you'd need to build at least one of the other models as the Specialist variant if you want to stay within one kit and be properly WYSIWYG.)

 

Edited November 12 by Lord Nord in Gravis Armour
Woof Woof Woof

[Morovir]

I meant for the purposes of the 40k rules, the base squad always comes with a pack leader so the expectation is that you would assemble the pack leader as one of the models, meaning that you wouldn't be able to built the Frosteye (if you followed the instructions to the letter).

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

25 minutes ago, Morovir said:

I meant for the purposes of the 40k rules, the base squad always comes with a pack leader so the expectation is that you would assemble the pack leader as one of the models, meaning that you wouldn't be able to built the Frosteye (if you followed the instructions to the letter).

 

Ah, fair point. My brain immediately went exclusively to Kill Team.

[Silvereyes]

Wow, does the Stealth Suit datasheet suck. Basically just the old datasheet molded onto the new models. Granted, the observer ability is basically the backbone of the current Tau meta. But you couldn't add new options, or maybe a new ability to go with the new models? Something to make it feel like the next step? Just feels quite lame honestly. Hopefully the 11th edition codex may have a more interesting datasheet for them.

[Wispy]

 

 

MediocreHobbies is the only one who I've seen build it for 40k instead of Kill Team and honestly I like it way more than the special butterfly specialists. 

[Ranulf]

Huh, Wolf Scouts are an actual thing again. 
 

And the rules are tasty.

 

And the minis are cool.

 

Now we just need Long Fangs and SW Generic Leaders to return and I’ll be living my best 90’s life. 

Edited November 13 by Ranulf

[Tastyfish]

11 hours ago, Silvereyes said:

Wow, does the Stealth Suit datasheet suck. Basically just the old datasheet molded onto the new models. Granted, the observer ability is basically the backbone of the current Tau meta. But you couldn't add new options, or maybe a new ability to go with the new models? Something to make it feel like the next step? Just feels quite lame honestly. Hopefully the 11th edition codex may have a more interesting datasheet for them.

 

They actually lost rules, they used to have "battlesuit support systems" that let them fall back and shoot, but those seem to have been missed off in the update.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

50 minutes ago, Ranulf said:

Huh, Wolf Scouts are an actual thing again. 
 

And the rules are tasty.

 

And the minis are cool.

 

Now we just need Long Fangs and SW Generic Leaders to return and I’ll be living my best 90’s life. 

 

I have a slight expectation that the reason Long Fangs weren't updated this edition is because they're waiting to re-introduce a Devastator unit (perhaps a veteran squad) at the beginning of 11th before dropping Long Fangs later in the edition. I'm also thinking that Space Wolves didn't get a new "upgrades and transfers" kit in 10th because the box as designed includes upgrade bits for both Wolf Scouts and/or Long Fangs and is likewise being held back until 11th.

 

It's not reason to take it as fact that either of those things will happen, but the possibility is at least there.

 

Edited November 13 by Lord Nord in Gravis Armour
Woof three times on the ceiling

[Moonstalker]

Wolf Scout rules aren't as good as I hoped.  Frosteye will never hit the field since you have to field the 10 man for him.  No Fangbearer option at all.  Rune Priest doesn't get Jaws of the World Wolf like he does in Kill Team, which is a big nostalgia loss.  That said, I don't think they're bad.  They feel a little pricey, but not too out of line with Infiltrators once you remember they've got a 6th model to soak a shot with.  Leader, trapmaster, gunner, and two regular guys seems like the way you'll see them kitted out for 6 plasma shots at 12 inches.  Maybe swap one of the hunters for the rune priest, maybe not - it's a little more melee threat with the rune weapon but I'm not 100% convinced by Thunderclap.  Maybe Thunderclap is good enough when combined with Deadly Stalkers, maybe not.

 

Speaking of melee threat, having the doggo in there gives them like ~3 extra inches of threat range.  Start in your deployment zone, scout 7, move 7 inches... except the doggo, who started even with the front rank, moves 10, and has a looong base.  Measure charge distance off the front, coherency off the back, 3 inch pile in before you swing lets your Phobos catch up with whatever the doggo tags.  Something we have not gotten to exploit with Headtakers with the way their puppers work, but it adds an extra dimension to scouts.

 

But they've got a clear purpose: finding something isolated - backfield objective holder, vehicle, scouts, etc - and nuking the crap out of it with Plasma, Haywire, and their Deadly Stalkers rule.

 

That's a lot more than can be said for the Stealth Suits.  I don't think you even need to be familiar with their previous rules to look at their new ones and see that they got the short end of the stick here.  Yeesh.

[Karhedron]

41 minutes ago, Moonstalker said:

Wolf Scout rules aren't as good as I hoped.  Frosteye will never hit the field since you have to field the 10 man for him.  No Fangbearer option at all.  Rune Priest doesn't get Jaws of the World Wolf like he does in Kill Team, which is a big nostalgia loss.

 

Agreed, when you look at all the specialists Eldar get in the Voidscarred Corsairs, it is shame that there is not representation here. Having the Fangbearer provide a 6+++ would be a nice touch and in line with the Infiltrators' Helix Adept. JOTWW and/or Cloaked by the Storm (Stealth + Cover) would have been neat for the Skjald.

  

41 minutes ago, Moonstalker said:

That said, I don't think they're bad.

 

You are right, they are a bit pricey but definitely have their uses and are another Space Wolves unit that can interact with some of the more specialised stratagems and abilities in their bespoke Detachments.

[HeadlessCross]

43 minutes ago, Moonstalker said:

Wolf Scout rules aren't as good as I hoped. 

They're not terrible though. They're like more aggro/offensive Reivers, and while the 10 man has little options you would have a reason to do a full squad due to the nature of the unit. 

 

I think 90% of competitive Wolf armies will take a unit or two to begin with, and maybe a third of those a max unit. 

[LSM]

An extra oddity with the lack of Fangbearer rules is that the model then has a non-WYSIWYG loadout. (The held Absolver Bolt Pistol instead of a Plasma Pistol; or even the Skjald's Bolt Pistol.)

[Moonstalker]

26 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

They're not terrible though. They're like more aggro/offensive Reivers, and while the 10 man has little options you would have a reason to do a full squad due to the nature of the unit. 

 

I think 90% of competitive Wolf armies will take a unit or two to begin with, and maybe a third of those a max unit. 

 

In this case my measure of "not as good as I hoped" is more related to options and flavor and not necessarily power.  In terms of competitiveness, I don't think they're bad, I do think they're gonna make competitive lists - but I don't think 10 mans will.  They're still marine statlines at like 20 ppm + a 10 point wolf, or however you want to break it down.  They've got some good trading potential, but they're still relatively soft and bringing a max-size unit will probably make them too unwieldy.  Too hard to hide and stage.

 

As much as I bemoan not being able to take the Frosteye without taking the 10 man, he's not even particularly worth taking.  What he does, does not exactly jive with what the squad wants to do, and is better done by Eliminators.  However, you're limited to 1 per squad Trapmaster and Gunner, and what they do is exactly what you want the squad to be doing.  So you're incentivized to take two 5 mans to get the specialists that will help the wolf scouts do wolf scout things (scout, move, short range shooting, charge, melee, haywire mine at beginning of opponent's command phase).  People may try bringing some 10 man squads but I expect it will rapidly fall out of favor.

[Moonstalker]

Also, the Scouts wolf has like this little harness on him that I'm going to model grenades on.  Partly because his job in Kill Team is to just jump in there and ruin someone's day regardless of whether or not he survives, but also because he has the Grenades keyword in 40k and can throw grenades at you.

[Neil H]

My local Warhammer store didn't get any stock in which was surprising, but my other local games store had 2 in so got one for the Wolf Scouts. 

So is available.

Regards,

Neil

Edited November 22 by Neil H

[Moonstalker]

13 hours ago, Neil H said:

My local Warhammer store didn't get any stock in which was surprising, but my other local games store had 2 in so got one for the Wolf Scouts. 

So is available.

Regards,

Neil

 

Because of your post I asked my GW guy if he got any stock while I was picking up my pre-order.  He says that GW North America got zero boxes to sell in stores, it all either got allocated to web pre-orders or a couple boxes per LGS.  As a result there's a whole internal GW political kerfluffle about it.  A bunch of the senior NA people (like people over the heads of store managers) are in Texas right now for training and the store managers are making their unhappiness over it heard through them.