The Scouring Ashes of the Imperium Chris Wraith

[Nagashsnee]

7 hours ago, Krelious said:

 

 

Dorn is largely portrayed as a broken idiot who doesnt know what hes doing and is being outplayed by everyone, I'd argue this is not due to the Emperor "dying" but largely a lasting trauma from being in the siege for so long and then being trapped in the realm of Khorne. The Khan escaped this as well hes too beaten up to do anything and Sanguinious is dead. Dorn is the only loyal Primarch from the siege still standing and bearing the responsibility of failure and his only salve to treat his trauma is his obsession with vengeance that's disguised as tactical necessity. Guillliman again is the only intelligent one here as his decisions are not personal but rather weighing all the options and trying to triage the situation while bringing stability to the Imperium and he does a wonderous job of it while only one other Primarch is his equal in this regard...

 

See this is why i love coming on here, cause i love seeing people read the same book and come away with totally different views and then working back to see how they got there.

 

 

Spoiler

Dorn is the last champion of the Imperium as it should be, he is honest (he lays out his position as he honestly believes it and even when meeting in secret tells his brothers the truth at all times). He plays politics as a idealist would, by presenting other parties with his views and reasoning and trying to get them on board thru logic and merit (in his view of course). Dorn is still living in the Imperium HE WANTS to have, the one he always talked about going back to when the heresy was over.

 

Guillliman is the Imperium that is coming into being, he is lying to his brothers for no real reason (they have every reason and right to know, an in the case of the Lion and his hoard of Dark Age tech and things the Emperor gave him, might actually be able to help in a very real way).  He is using threats and coersion rather then arguments and merit to FORCE his argument.  He is subverting any hope of actual debate, cohesion and union and instead laying the ground work for the the kind of High Lords we will come to know and love.  And its all in the classic 'only i can solve the problem i wont tell anyone about' package. 

 

Dorn isnt a broken idiot, Dorn is the last gasping breaths of what the Imperium SHOULD be, silently and secretly being smothered to death by Guillliman who is taking the first steps in CREATING the nightmare 40k we know and love. Simple fact is Guillliman LOST the vote, he failed to make a case and instead resorted to death threats, extorsion and lies. All based on the PERSONAL belief that no else can be trusted. Despite people like the Khan, Vulkan and Dorn having show more then Guillliman that THEY can be trusted. 

 

Even if Guilllimans position and arguments are right, they way he goes about securing them puts him in the wrong. He is laying foundational weakness and instability that we know will never be fixed.  10k years latter and the High Lords were still using the playbook of lies, threats and indimidation that Guillliman TAUGHT them. And this book shows nothing else was ever even tried. But Dorn did, he actually aproached the council as a place to make your case and HE abided by the vote, seeking instead to prove Guilllimans position to be wrong (which we know it is). Dorns mistake is firstly trusting Guillliman to say what he belives, and is thus trapped debating a brother who has no intention of honesty or fairness.  And secondly not moving to secure the weaker elements from OUTSIDE (i.e. Guillliman) intimidation.  He probably never even considered Guillliman would try it. Because at his core Dorn is still a idealist. Its why his brothers betrayal and the fallout hurts him so deeply.  

 

For all its Ultramarine glazing the book is also laying the lions share of the faults for the modern Imperium at Guilllimans feet. HE chooses to lie about key things that would affect how everyone reacts. HE chooses to start the new age by sham council votes while using every underhand cheat know to politics (literally intimidation and bribery) to ensure its never really a vote.  HE secretly places himself as head of a deep state while publicly talking about the importance of bringing people together and acting in union with one another.  Other then founding the church he is speedrunning every problem with the Imperiums goverment. HE breaks any real hope for the primarchs to come together and start again as brothers. 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 09:08 AM by Nagashsnee

[Astartes Consul]

Finished the book yesterday. Overall, an enjoyable read and a very good first entry into an expanded series. Some of the writing dragged a bit, but most of it was decent. Good character and world building, and Wraight's ability to write about politics, intrigue and character motivation remains his greatest strength. A welcome change of pace from much of the SoT series.

 

A few more detailed thoughts in the spoiler tag...

 

Spoiler

- The sense of anxiety about the Emperor and when he will speak again is really well done. Obviously, we all know the outcome, but you genuinely feel how on edge the characters are. The belief that, of course, Big E will return in some form. The anxiety about when he will and in what form. As a reader, it keeps you on edge.

 

- Similarly, the consistent plot thread about repeating the mistakes of the past, and the tension between the various views of the warp/Ruinous Powers, is nice. Adds some extra depth that you see this from a loyalist and traitor POV as well. And it makes the little Iron Warriors-related twist at the end quite rewarding. Again, we know what the outcome is going to be, but it allows us to imagine the various paths not taken. Which has always been one of the Heresy setting's greatest strengths.

 

- Having the canonical establishment of in-universe Ultramarine hate is fun. That's right, guys, we are the poster boys now!

[wecanhaveallthree]

>dragged

 

What would you cut if you could?

 

Spoiler

I think the cultist on Terra parts could go - I don't think they really added much to the story. They're interesting, but I think we get the overall picture of Terra elsewhere and we get the 'Chaos is gone, we're messed up' perfectly through the Iron Warriors/Word Bearers (the possessed no longer being possessed in particular). I also think we could've lost the Luna/Heliosa/SoH scenes and it might actually have gone better - not knowing what the Traitors were up to, the sudden appearance of the genetic abominations, the sudden retasking down to the strange, strongly-guarded underground with the creepy Blood Angels as allies.

 

[Dornfist]

Steering clear from spoilers for now, but am liking what I'm reading here about the positive feedback. I think I might wait for the paperback edition cos money be tight for me these days lol. I am mostly looking forward to when BL does the Iron Cage and Fall of Caliban.

Edited 13 hours ago by Dornfist

[Krelious]

On 12/11/2025 at 3:29 AM, Nagashsnee said:

See this is why i love coming on here, cause i love seeing people read the same book and come away with totally different views and then working back to see how they got there.

 

 

  Hide contents

Dorn is the last champion of the Imperium as it should be, he is honest (he lays out his position as he honestly believes it and even when meeting in secret tells his brothers the truth at all times). He plays politics as a idealist would, by presenting other parties with his views and reasoning and trying to get them on board thru logic and merit (in his view of course). Dorn is still living in the Imperium HE WANTS to have, the one he always talked about going back to when the heresy was over.

 

Guillliman is the Imperium that is coming into being, he is lying to his brothers for no real reason (they have every reason and right to know, an in the case of the Lion and his hoard of Dark Age tech and things the Emperor gave him, might actually be able to help in a very real way).  He is using threats and coersion rather then arguments and merit to FORCE his argument.  He is subverting any hope of actual debate, cohesion and union and instead laying the ground work for the the kind of High Lords we will come to know and love.  And its all in the classic 'only i can solve the problem i wont tell anyone about' package. 

 

Dorn isnt a broken idiot, Dorn is the last gasping breaths of what the Imperium SHOULD be, silently and secretly being smothered to death by Guillliman who is taking the first steps in CREATING the nightmare 40k we know and love. Simple fact is Guillliman LOST the vote, he failed to make a case and instead resorted to death threats, extorsion and lies. All based on the PERSONAL belief that no else can be trusted. Despite people like the Khan, Vulkan and Dorn having show more then Guillliman that THEY can be trusted. 

 

Even if Guilllimans position and arguments are right, they way he goes about securing them puts him in the wrong. He is laying foundational weakness and instability that we know will never be fixed.  10k years latter and the High Lords were still using the playbook of lies, threats and indimidation that Guillliman TAUGHT them. And this book shows nothing else was ever even tried. But Dorn did, he actually aproached the council as a place to make your case and HE abided by the vote, seeking instead to prove Guilllimans position to be wrong (which we know it is). Dorns mistake is firstly trusting Guillliman to say what he belives, and is thus trapped debating a brother who has no intention of honesty or fairness.  And secondly not moving to secure the weaker elements from OUTSIDE (i.e. Guillliman) intimidation.  He probably never even considered Guillliman would try it. Because at his core Dorn is still a idealist. Its why his brothers betrayal and the fallout hurts him so deeply.  

 

For all its Ultramarine glazing the book is also laying the lions share of the faults for the modern Imperium at Guilllimans feet. HE chooses to lie about key things that would affect how everyone reacts. HE chooses to start the new age by sham council votes while using every underhand cheat know to politics (literally intimidation and bribery) to ensure its never really a vote.  HE secretly places himself as head of a deep state while publicly talking about the importance of bringing people together and acting in union with one another.  Other then founding the church he is speedrunning every problem with the Imperiums goverment. HE breaks any real hope for the primarchs to come together and start again as brothers. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

I dont know what book you read but its clear that all the other primarchs voted in favour of a crusade and then the Highlords all supported Guilliman because they wanted the moon and mars back, then the primarchs immediately decide to support Guilliman because  they dont want to start a fight/division, meanwhile Dorn is covertly assembling assets to start a crusade on his own. 

 

The entire main theme of the book is that the Warsmith is right about everything and Dorn is playing into it. 

 

I'd argue its not Gulliman creating the 40k setting, hes doing the best with what he has but the reality is that many people have fractious agendas and its clear in terms of what set out as diverging plans and motivations and ideals that the Emperor himself kept secrets because if other groups knew these things then that would lead to problems of egos headbutting over what to do.  ie a major point in why the Webway project was hidden and on a need to know basis is for one thing the Navigator houses would go insane if they knew they were going to be replaced, Magnus would want a piece of it and likely other primarchs would have their own ideas. Knowledge is power and the idea of keeping secrets is to ensure that people dont react badly or develop their own plans when their is a cascading network of interconnected problems associated with knowledge of certain things. Like if they knew Gulliman was securing Luna for the black ships to feed the Emperor psykers that would cause a major problem with the primarchs and other bodies of power because he has to keep up the illusion that The Emperor might get better and that the Imperium doesnt do evil like that. 

 

Then going back to the Warsmith is right idea, Dorn and Sigismund being vengeful is exactly what Chaos wants in terms of the emotions feeding it and the backlash itself within the Imperium. I'd argue the biggest issue that led to the 40k problem is 1 the power vacuum left by The Emperor and Malcador left multiple competing groups and idealogies all battling for spheres of interest within the Imperium while also not having appropriate knowledge to deal with those problems. #2 is the whole religion venerating the Emperor is actually something that Chaos wants and is bascially a backslide into backwards practices brought on by generational trauma and necessity in that perhaps the Imperial Truth wasnt good enough and the general population of the Imperium needed some Scholarly knowledge of the Warp and esoteric knowledge without defaulting to mysticism and spookery, again this is what Chaos wants because that sort of faith will ultimately lead to the same emotions and warfare that feed Chaos. This is exactly what the Iron Warrior warsmith is talking about being stuck in an endless cycle of violence enslaved to these powers because everyone is looking at it from an external viewpoint rather than an internal one. Like this guy over here is an evil piece of given my idealogy is the only right then that gives me the excuse to go do whatever evil I want to end him and everyone like him.

 

Dorn is being played like a fool and given that his legion is the source of the Black Templars its likely going to be him that gets the ball rolling on this endless war business that the Imperium suffers from thats based entirely on emotion while Gulliman is contrasted as being like his father doing what is necessary with cold logic, not because he wants to do it because its what is necessary in terms of minimizing all potential negative outcomes. Guilliman again isnt perfect but hes doing the best he can with what hes got while Dorn at this point doesnt give a about consequences, he doesnt care if the traitors on Luna and Mars fortify and build up and impossible force that will be hell to kick out at a later date, he just wants revenge now against the traitor primarchs and their legions because Dorn is emotionally hurting he has charged with defending Terra and his father and he feels like thats over and done with especially now his dad is on the Throne, Dorn at this point is not thinking of long term strategy or ensuring their back lines are secure, his crusade of vengeance comes with the idea that hes afraid the traitors will regroup and reinforce or possibly even attack Terra again but the reality is that he is just completely ignoring the direct threats in the Sol system which are imperative for the long term functioning of the Imperium because he wants revenge and is a borderline loose cannon which will likely come out in the Iron Cage novel where hes going to go after the Iron Warriors without permission and get his legion decimated and rendered non functional.     

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Krelious

[Nagashsnee]

46 minutes ago, Krelious said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I dont know what book you read but its clear that all the other primarchs voted in favour of a crusade and then the Highlords all supported Guilliman because they wanted the moon and mars back, then the primarchs immediately decide to support Guilliman because  they dont want to start a fight/division, meanwhile Dorn is covertly assembling assets to start a crusade on his own. 

 

The entire main theme of the book is that the Warsmith is right about everything and Dorn is playing into it. 

 

I'd argue its not Gulliman creating the 40k setting, hes doing the best with what he has but the reality is that many people have fractious agendas and its clear in terms of what set out as diverging plans and motivations and ideals that the Emperor himself kept secrets because if other groups knew these things then that would lead to problems of egos headbutting over what to do.  ie a major point in why the Webway project was hidden and on a need to know basis is for one thing the Navigator houses would go insane if they knew they were going to be replaced, Magnus would want a piece of it and likely other primarchs would have their own ideas. Knowledge is power and the idea of keeping secrets is to ensure that people dont react badly or develop their own plans when their is a cascading network of interconnected problems associated with knowledge of certain things. Like if they knew Gulliman was securing Luna for the black ships to feed the Emperor psykers that would cause a major problem with the primarchs and other bodies of power because he has to keep up the illusion that The Emperor might get better and that the Imperium doesnt do evil like that. 

 

Then going back to the Warsmith is right idea, Dorn and Sigismund being vengeful is exactly what Chaos wants in terms of the emotions feeding it and the backlash itself within the Imperium. I'd argue the biggest issue that led to the 40k problem is 1 the power vacuum left by The Emperor and Malcador left multiple competing groups and idealogies all battling for spheres of interest within the Imperium while also not having appropriate knowledge to deal with those problems. #2 is the whole religion venerating the Emperor is actually something that Chaos wants and is bascially a backslide into backwards practices brought on by generational trauma and necessity in that perhaps the Imperial Truth wasnt good enough and the general population of the Imperium needed some Scholarly knowledge of the Warp and esoteric knowledge without defaulting to mysticism and spookery, again this is what Chaos wants because that sort of faith will ultimately lead to the same emotions and warfare that feed Chaos. This is exactly what the Iron Warrior warsmith is talking about being stuck in an endless cycle of violence enslaved to these powers because everyone is looking at it from an external viewpoint rather than an internal one. Like this guy over here is an evil piece of given my idealogy is the only right then that gives me the excuse to go do whatever evil I want to end him and everyone like him.

 

Dorn is being played like a fool and given that his legion is the source of the Black Templars its likely going to be him that gets the ball rolling on this endless war business that the Imperium suffers from thats based entirely on emotion while Gulliman is contrasted as being like his father doing what is necessary with cold logic, not because he wants to do it because its what is necessary in terms of minimizing all potential negative outcomes. Guilliman again isnt perfect but hes doing the best he can with what hes got while Dorn at this point doesnt give a about consequences, he doesnt care if the traitors on Luna and Mars fortify and build up and impossible force that will be hell to kick out at a later date, he just wants revenge now against the traitor primarchs and their legions because Dorn is emotionally hurting he has charged with defending Terra and his father and he feels like thats over and done with especially now his dad is on the Throne, Dorn at this point is not thinking of long term strategy or ensuring their back lines are secure, his crusade of vengeance comes with the idea that hes afraid the traitors will regroup and reinforce or possibly even attack Terra again but the reality is that he is just completely ignoring the direct threats in the Sol system which are imperative for the long term functioning of the Imperium because he wants revenge and is a borderline loose cannon which will likely come out in the Iron Cage novel where hes going to go after the Iron Warriors without permission and get his legion decimated and rendered non functional.     

 

Its funny you ask which book, let me quote it to you you might have missed it.

 

Spoiler

‘The objective will be Luna,’ Guilliman had told him. ‘I want no dissension on the Council on this. All other considerations are secondary.’

‘Luna?’ he’d replied. ‘But, if I may ask–’

No, you may not, Casryn had signed.

And that had been it. No risk of protest from him. It became too costly to contemplate. The Ultramarines gave him everything he wanted, resources beyond the dreams of a shattered kingdom. He took on scholars, he re-established the old mechanisms of control. They wanted him to stamp out the new religion, which he was perfectly happy to do, since that was nothing more than a return to how it had been before. Now he took his orders from the primarch, who was clearly taking at least counsel from the Anathema Psykana. He didn’t need to know why. All he cared about was clarity – he had a chain of command again, one he could work with, one he could understand.

That still left rivals to be placated or eliminated. He spoke to all his colleagues in the Senatorum one by one, pointing out to them how hard it would be to operate without the cooperation of the new Administratum hierarchy. They couldn’t appeal to the Sigillite any longer were Pentasian to deprive them of the munitions they wanted, or the legal clearance to allocate tithe income, or the permissions to operate in the newly carved-out civil districts. They took the hint. They all had their own battles to fight, after all, so it made no sense to pick fights with him.

 

So the book i am reading is Ashes of the Imperium.  Chapter 37 for anyone in the cheap seats.  The rest of you argument being based on the flawed initual premise i leave to stand or fall as others wish to judge it. 

 

Spoiler

He (Pantasian lord of the Administratum) LITERALLY gloats about how Malcador is no longer around to STOP this kind of thing.  The book makes it crystal clear that Guiliman thru the adminastratum strong armed any oposition on the council. I mean they even talk about replacing anyone who wont bend the knee to the new regime (pls dont make me quote it its just below the above passage and i dont want to put to much of the book on here). It is true we dont know how many would have voted what if left to decide on their own. AND WE NEVER WILL. Thats the problem with introducing bribes and threats and force, you can never claim that some did it cause they wanted it, cause we can never be sure how many are comprimised. 

 

Like oil in clean water you can never claim any one cup is free of the taint once you introduce it. And G man over turned a bloody oil tanker.