The Scouring Ashes of the Imperium Chris Wraith

[Nagashsnee]

7 hours ago, Krelious said:

 

 

Dorn is largely portrayed as a broken idiot who doesnt know what hes doing and is being outplayed by everyone, I'd argue this is not due to the Emperor "dying" but largely a lasting trauma from being in the siege for so long and then being trapped in the realm of Khorne. The Khan escaped this as well hes too beaten up to do anything and Sanguinious is dead. Dorn is the only loyal Primarch from the siege still standing and bearing the responsibility of failure and his only salve to treat his trauma is his obsession with vengeance that's disguised as tactical necessity. Guillliman again is the only intelligent one here as his decisions are not personal but rather weighing all the options and trying to triage the situation while bringing stability to the Imperium and he does a wonderous job of it while only one other Primarch is his equal in this regard...

 

See this is why i love coming on here, cause i love seeing people read the same book and come away with totally different views and then working back to see how they got there.

 

 

Spoiler

Dorn is the last champion of the Imperium as it should be, he is honest (he lays out his position as he honestly believes it and even when meeting in secret tells his brothers the truth at all times). He plays politics as a idealist would, by presenting other parties with his views and reasoning and trying to get them on board thru logic and merit (in his view of course). Dorn is still living in the Imperium HE WANTS to have, the one he always talked about going back to when the heresy was over.

 

Guillliman is the Imperium that is coming into being, he is lying to his brothers for no real reason (they have every reason and right to know, an in the case of the Lion and his hoard of Dark Age tech and things the Emperor gave him, might actually be able to help in a very real way).  He is using threats and coersion rather then arguments and merit to FORCE his argument.  He is subverting any hope of actual debate, cohesion and union and instead laying the ground work for the the kind of High Lords we will come to know and love.  And its all in the classic 'only i can solve the problem i wont tell anyone about' package. 

 

Dorn isnt a broken idiot, Dorn is the last gasping breaths of what the Imperium SHOULD be, silently and secretly being smothered to death by Guillliman who is taking the first steps in CREATING the nightmare 40k we know and love. Simple fact is Guillliman LOST the vote, he failed to make a case and instead resorted to death threats, extorsion and lies. All based on the PERSONAL belief that no else can be trusted. Despite people like the Khan, Vulkan and Dorn having show more then Guillliman that THEY can be trusted. 

 

Even if Guilllimans position and arguments are right, they way he goes about securing them puts him in the wrong. He is laying foundational weakness and instability that we know will never be fixed.  10k years latter and the High Lords were still using the playbook of lies, threats and indimidation that Guillliman TAUGHT them. And this book shows nothing else was ever even tried. But Dorn did, he actually aproached the council as a place to make your case and HE abided by the vote, seeking instead to prove Guilllimans position to be wrong (which we know it is). Dorns mistake is firstly trusting Guillliman to say what he belives, and is thus trapped debating a brother who has no intention of honesty or fairness.  And secondly not moving to secure the weaker elements from OUTSIDE (i.e. Guillliman) intimidation.  He probably never even considered Guillliman would try it. Because at his core Dorn is still a idealist. Its why his brothers betrayal and the fallout hurts him so deeply.  

 

For all its Ultramarine glazing the book is also laying the lions share of the faults for the modern Imperium at Guilllimans feet. HE chooses to lie about key things that would affect how everyone reacts. HE chooses to start the new age by sham council votes while using every underhand cheat know to politics (literally intimidation and bribery) to ensure its never really a vote.  HE secretly places himself as head of a deep state while publicly talking about the importance of bringing people together and acting in union with one another.  Other then founding the church he is speedrunning every problem with the Imperiums goverment. HE breaks any real hope for the primarchs to come together and start again as brothers. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2025 by Nagashsnee

[Astartes Consul]

Finished the book yesterday. Overall, an enjoyable read and a very good first entry into an expanded series. Some of the writing dragged a bit, but most of it was decent. Good character and world building, and Wraight's ability to write about politics, intrigue and character motivation remains his greatest strength. A welcome change of pace from much of the SoT series.

 

A few more detailed thoughts in the spoiler tag...

 

Spoiler

- The sense of anxiety about the Emperor and when he will speak again is really well done. Obviously, we all know the outcome, but you genuinely feel how on edge the characters are. The belief that, of course, Big E will return in some form. The anxiety about when he will and in what form. As a reader, it keeps you on edge.

 

- Similarly, the consistent plot thread about repeating the mistakes of the past, and the tension between the various views of the warp/Ruinous Powers, is nice. Adds some extra depth that you see this from a loyalist and traitor POV as well. And it makes the little Iron Warriors-related twist at the end quite rewarding. Again, we know what the outcome is going to be, but it allows us to imagine the various paths not taken. Which has always been one of the Heresy setting's greatest strengths.

 

- Having the canonical establishment of in-universe Ultramarine hate is fun. That's right, guys, we are the poster boys now!

[wecanhaveallthree]

>dragged

 

What would you cut if you could?

 

Spoiler

I think the cultist on Terra parts could go - I don't think they really added much to the story. They're interesting, but I think we get the overall picture of Terra elsewhere and we get the 'Chaos is gone, we're messed up' perfectly through the Iron Warriors/Word Bearers (the possessed no longer being possessed in particular). I also think we could've lost the Luna/Heliosa/SoH scenes and it might actually have gone better - not knowing what the Traitors were up to, the sudden appearance of the genetic abominations, the sudden retasking down to the strange, strongly-guarded underground with the creepy Blood Angels as allies.

 

[Dornfist]

Steering clear from spoilers for now, but am liking what I'm reading here about the positive feedback. I think I might wait for the paperback edition cos money be tight for me these days lol. I am mostly looking forward to when BL does the Iron Cage and Fall of Caliban.

Edited December 12, 2025 by Dornfist

[Krelious]

On 12/11/2025 at 3:29 AM, Nagashsnee said:

See this is why i love coming on here, cause i love seeing people read the same book and come away with totally different views and then working back to see how they got there.

 

 

  Hide contents

Dorn is the last champion of the Imperium as it should be, he is honest (he lays out his position as he honestly believes it and even when meeting in secret tells his brothers the truth at all times). He plays politics as a idealist would, by presenting other parties with his views and reasoning and trying to get them on board thru logic and merit (in his view of course). Dorn is still living in the Imperium HE WANTS to have, the one he always talked about going back to when the heresy was over.

 

Guillliman is the Imperium that is coming into being, he is lying to his brothers for no real reason (they have every reason and right to know, an in the case of the Lion and his hoard of Dark Age tech and things the Emperor gave him, might actually be able to help in a very real way).  He is using threats and coersion rather then arguments and merit to FORCE his argument.  He is subverting any hope of actual debate, cohesion and union and instead laying the ground work for the the kind of High Lords we will come to know and love.  And its all in the classic 'only i can solve the problem i wont tell anyone about' package. 

 

Dorn isnt a broken idiot, Dorn is the last gasping breaths of what the Imperium SHOULD be, silently and secretly being smothered to death by Guillliman who is taking the first steps in CREATING the nightmare 40k we know and love. Simple fact is Guillliman LOST the vote, he failed to make a case and instead resorted to death threats, extorsion and lies. All based on the PERSONAL belief that no else can be trusted. Despite people like the Khan, Vulkan and Dorn having show more then Guillliman that THEY can be trusted. 

 

Even if Guilllimans position and arguments are right, they way he goes about securing them puts him in the wrong. He is laying foundational weakness and instability that we know will never be fixed.  10k years latter and the High Lords were still using the playbook of lies, threats and indimidation that Guillliman TAUGHT them. And this book shows nothing else was ever even tried. But Dorn did, he actually aproached the council as a place to make your case and HE abided by the vote, seeking instead to prove Guilllimans position to be wrong (which we know it is). Dorns mistake is firstly trusting Guillliman to say what he belives, and is thus trapped debating a brother who has no intention of honesty or fairness.  And secondly not moving to secure the weaker elements from OUTSIDE (i.e. Guillliman) intimidation.  He probably never even considered Guillliman would try it. Because at his core Dorn is still a idealist. Its why his brothers betrayal and the fallout hurts him so deeply.  

 

For all its Ultramarine glazing the book is also laying the lions share of the faults for the modern Imperium at Guilllimans feet. HE chooses to lie about key things that would affect how everyone reacts. HE chooses to start the new age by sham council votes while using every underhand cheat know to politics (literally intimidation and bribery) to ensure its never really a vote.  HE secretly places himself as head of a deep state while publicly talking about the importance of bringing people together and acting in union with one another.  Other then founding the church he is speedrunning every problem with the Imperiums goverment. HE breaks any real hope for the primarchs to come together and start again as brothers. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

I dont know what book you read but its clear that all the other primarchs voted in favour of a crusade and then the Highlords all supported Guilliman because they wanted the moon and mars back, then the primarchs immediately decide to support Guilliman because  they dont want to start a fight/division, meanwhile Dorn is covertly assembling assets to start a crusade on his own. 

 

The entire main theme of the book is that the Warsmith is right about everything and Dorn is playing into it. 

 

I'd argue its not Gulliman creating the 40k setting, hes doing the best with what he has but the reality is that many people have fractious agendas and its clear in terms of what set out as diverging plans and motivations and ideals that the Emperor himself kept secrets because if other groups knew these things then that would lead to problems of egos headbutting over what to do.  ie a major point in why the Webway project was hidden and on a need to know basis is for one thing the Navigator houses would go insane if they knew they were going to be replaced, Magnus would want a piece of it and likely other primarchs would have their own ideas. Knowledge is power and the idea of keeping secrets is to ensure that people dont react badly or develop their own plans when their is a cascading network of interconnected problems associated with knowledge of certain things. Like if they knew Gulliman was securing Luna for the black ships to feed the Emperor psykers that would cause a major problem with the primarchs and other bodies of power because he has to keep up the illusion that The Emperor might get better and that the Imperium doesnt do evil like that. 

 

Then going back to the Warsmith is right idea, Dorn and Sigismund being vengeful is exactly what Chaos wants in terms of the emotions feeding it and the backlash itself within the Imperium. I'd argue the biggest issue that led to the 40k problem is 1 the power vacuum left by The Emperor and Malcador left multiple competing groups and idealogies all battling for spheres of interest within the Imperium while also not having appropriate knowledge to deal with those problems. #2 is the whole religion venerating the Emperor is actually something that Chaos wants and is bascially a backslide into backwards practices brought on by generational trauma and necessity in that perhaps the Imperial Truth wasnt good enough and the general population of the Imperium needed some Scholarly knowledge of the Warp and esoteric knowledge without defaulting to mysticism and spookery, again this is what Chaos wants because that sort of faith will ultimately lead to the same emotions and warfare that feed Chaos. This is exactly what the Iron Warrior warsmith is talking about being stuck in an endless cycle of violence enslaved to these powers because everyone is looking at it from an external viewpoint rather than an internal one. Like this guy over here is an evil piece of given my idealogy is the only right then that gives me the excuse to go do whatever evil I want to end him and everyone like him.

 

Dorn is being played like a fool and given that his legion is the source of the Black Templars its likely going to be him that gets the ball rolling on this endless war business that the Imperium suffers from thats based entirely on emotion while Gulliman is contrasted as being like his father doing what is necessary with cold logic, not because he wants to do it because its what is necessary in terms of minimizing all potential negative outcomes. Guilliman again isnt perfect but hes doing the best he can with what hes got while Dorn at this point doesnt give a about consequences, he doesnt care if the traitors on Luna and Mars fortify and build up and impossible force that will be hell to kick out at a later date, he just wants revenge now against the traitor primarchs and their legions because Dorn is emotionally hurting he has charged with defending Terra and his father and he feels like thats over and done with especially now his dad is on the Throne, Dorn at this point is not thinking of long term strategy or ensuring their back lines are secure, his crusade of vengeance comes with the idea that hes afraid the traitors will regroup and reinforce or possibly even attack Terra again but the reality is that he is just completely ignoring the direct threats in the Sol system which are imperative for the long term functioning of the Imperium because he wants revenge and is a borderline loose cannon which will likely come out in the Iron Cage novel where hes going to go after the Iron Warriors without permission and get his legion decimated and rendered non functional.     

 

Edited December 13, 2025 by Krelious

[Nagashsnee]

46 minutes ago, Krelious said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I dont know what book you read but its clear that all the other primarchs voted in favour of a crusade and then the Highlords all supported Guilliman because they wanted the moon and mars back, then the primarchs immediately decide to support Guilliman because  they dont want to start a fight/division, meanwhile Dorn is covertly assembling assets to start a crusade on his own. 

 

The entire main theme of the book is that the Warsmith is right about everything and Dorn is playing into it. 

 

I'd argue its not Gulliman creating the 40k setting, hes doing the best with what he has but the reality is that many people have fractious agendas and its clear in terms of what set out as diverging plans and motivations and ideals that the Emperor himself kept secrets because if other groups knew these things then that would lead to problems of egos headbutting over what to do.  ie a major point in why the Webway project was hidden and on a need to know basis is for one thing the Navigator houses would go insane if they knew they were going to be replaced, Magnus would want a piece of it and likely other primarchs would have their own ideas. Knowledge is power and the idea of keeping secrets is to ensure that people dont react badly or develop their own plans when their is a cascading network of interconnected problems associated with knowledge of certain things. Like if they knew Gulliman was securing Luna for the black ships to feed the Emperor psykers that would cause a major problem with the primarchs and other bodies of power because he has to keep up the illusion that The Emperor might get better and that the Imperium doesnt do evil like that. 

 

Then going back to the Warsmith is right idea, Dorn and Sigismund being vengeful is exactly what Chaos wants in terms of the emotions feeding it and the backlash itself within the Imperium. I'd argue the biggest issue that led to the 40k problem is 1 the power vacuum left by The Emperor and Malcador left multiple competing groups and idealogies all battling for spheres of interest within the Imperium while also not having appropriate knowledge to deal with those problems. #2 is the whole religion venerating the Emperor is actually something that Chaos wants and is bascially a backslide into backwards practices brought on by generational trauma and necessity in that perhaps the Imperial Truth wasnt good enough and the general population of the Imperium needed some Scholarly knowledge of the Warp and esoteric knowledge without defaulting to mysticism and spookery, again this is what Chaos wants because that sort of faith will ultimately lead to the same emotions and warfare that feed Chaos. This is exactly what the Iron Warrior warsmith is talking about being stuck in an endless cycle of violence enslaved to these powers because everyone is looking at it from an external viewpoint rather than an internal one. Like this guy over here is an evil piece of given my idealogy is the only right then that gives me the excuse to go do whatever evil I want to end him and everyone like him.

 

Dorn is being played like a fool and given that his legion is the source of the Black Templars its likely going to be him that gets the ball rolling on this endless war business that the Imperium suffers from thats based entirely on emotion while Gulliman is contrasted as being like his father doing what is necessary with cold logic, not because he wants to do it because its what is necessary in terms of minimizing all potential negative outcomes. Guilliman again isnt perfect but hes doing the best he can with what hes got while Dorn at this point doesnt give a about consequences, he doesnt care if the traitors on Luna and Mars fortify and build up and impossible force that will be hell to kick out at a later date, he just wants revenge now against the traitor primarchs and their legions because Dorn is emotionally hurting he has charged with defending Terra and his father and he feels like thats over and done with especially now his dad is on the Throne, Dorn at this point is not thinking of long term strategy or ensuring their back lines are secure, his crusade of vengeance comes with the idea that hes afraid the traitors will regroup and reinforce or possibly even attack Terra again but the reality is that he is just completely ignoring the direct threats in the Sol system which are imperative for the long term functioning of the Imperium because he wants revenge and is a borderline loose cannon which will likely come out in the Iron Cage novel where hes going to go after the Iron Warriors without permission and get his legion decimated and rendered non functional.     

 

Its funny you ask which book, let me quote it to you you might have missed it.

 

Spoiler

‘The objective will be Luna,’ Guilliman had told him. ‘I want no dissension on the Council on this. All other considerations are secondary.’

‘Luna?’ he’d replied. ‘But, if I may ask–’

No, you may not, Casryn had signed.

And that had been it. No risk of protest from him. It became too costly to contemplate. The Ultramarines gave him everything he wanted, resources beyond the dreams of a shattered kingdom. He took on scholars, he re-established the old mechanisms of control. They wanted him to stamp out the new religion, which he was perfectly happy to do, since that was nothing more than a return to how it had been before. Now he took his orders from the primarch, who was clearly taking at least counsel from the Anathema Psykana. He didn’t need to know why. All he cared about was clarity – he had a chain of command again, one he could work with, one he could understand.

That still left rivals to be placated or eliminated. He spoke to all his colleagues in the Senatorum one by one, pointing out to them how hard it would be to operate without the cooperation of the new Administratum hierarchy. They couldn’t appeal to the Sigillite any longer were Pentasian to deprive them of the munitions they wanted, or the legal clearance to allocate tithe income, or the permissions to operate in the newly carved-out civil districts. They took the hint. They all had their own battles to fight, after all, so it made no sense to pick fights with him.

 

So the book i am reading is Ashes of the Imperium.  Chapter 37 for anyone in the cheap seats.  The rest of you argument being based on the flawed initual premise i leave to stand or fall as others wish to judge it. 

 

Spoiler

He (Pantasian lord of the Administratum) LITERALLY gloats about how Malcador is no longer around to STOP this kind of thing.  The book makes it crystal clear that Guiliman thru the adminastratum strong armed any oposition on the council. I mean they even talk about replacing anyone who wont bend the knee to the new regime (pls dont make me quote it its just below the above passage and i dont want to put to much of the book on here). It is true we dont know how many would have voted what if left to decide on their own. AND WE NEVER WILL. Thats the problem with introducing bribes and threats and force, you can never claim that some did it cause they wanted it, cause we can never be sure how many are comprimised. 

 

Like oil in clean water you can never claim any one cup is free of the taint once you introduce it. And G man over turned a bloody oil tanker. 

 

 

 

[lansalt]

The only problem with Guilliman's actions

Spoiler

...is the lack of a rationale for not explaining the real reason behind going to Luna to the other primarchs.
Or why Valdor doesn't openly support it. It should be a crystal clear priority for all, so why hide it? Other than that, Guilliman is no villain at all. He just plays the political game better than the others, because that's his superpower. Everything in the story vindicates him over his brothers.

The Selenar Matriarch actions also didn't make sense. I waited until the end for her to betray the SoH.
 

I liked the book. Wraight is great at political intrige and the motivations of the characters. Looking forward to the next one in the series.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Luna:

 

Quote

I'm still trying to fit this one properly. For one, we know there aren't any daemons around Terra - the Throne isn't needed to create the psychic sun. I guess maybe the characters don't know that for sure, and it's not like they can unseal the Webway Breach and go check. It's always been made pretty explicit that it's the Throne that needs the Emperor, not the other way around, but there doesn't seem to be a need for the Throne right now. Unless the Talisman of Seven Hammers is canon again. That's literally the only reason I can think of: if the Throne fails, Terra goes boom regardless. 

I don't think Guilliman wanted even the faintest argument or disagreement. Maybe he's just solidfying his political position e.g. 'only I can get you what you want'? A deliberate flex on his brothers in the Council?

 

Selenar:

 

Quote

The Selenar have hated the Emperor since literally forever. They've been working to sabotage his work since forever (just ask Fabius). Of course they're going to fight to the end rather than be put under the thumb again.

 

[Scribe]

I've got this book on the way now. Is Valdor at least the Valdor of .... Valdor again?

[Astartes Consul]

7 hours ago, Scribe said:

I've got this book on the way now. Is Valdor at least the Valdor of .... Valdor again?

Minimal presence tbh, only one proper scene he features in IIRC.

[Roomsky]

Ashes of the Imperium - Chris Wraight

 

Oh, this was marvelous.

 

An effective first book in a series? An effective introduction to those who skipped the Heresy? An effective follow-up for those who read the Heresy? A cracking read with well done characters, plotting, and structure?

Wraight threaded the needle. He ticked every box. It's magnificent.

 

Seriously, the way Wraight honours past portrayals while also providing an introduction to these characters is crazy. Yes, there is a bit of heavy-handed course correction (basically a necessity for some characters,) but overall, a different affect is completely justified and understandable considering all that's happened. Everyone's both intensely depressed but desperately clinging to hope - they don't know the Emperor won't heal. Everyone thinks He'll get back up eventually (well, almost everyone) so, despite the overwhelming sense of despair, no one's immobilized by it. And that's good for them, because things are moving quickly on Terra.

 

As a bonus, it's what I and so many others wanted Unremembered Empire to be, odd as that sounds.

 

To be clear, this isn't Senatorum Imperialis Simulator 2025. The High Lords and Primarchs are driving the plot, but much happens behind closed doors. Everyone is clawing desperately to hold on to what they believe is important, and the primary focus here is how our cast deals with putting conflicting priorities into action. Most primarchs want vengeance before the traitors can make their escape. Guilliman wants a strong foundation rebuilt at the Throneworld before leaping into another battle. The Mortal High Lords struggle to reestablish their control over the things the sudden influx of demigods may decide belongs to them, actually. The Chaos characters, surprisingly numerous, are having a smaller-scale version of the same debate. Does one remain hopeful? Does one take the idealistic path or the pragmatic one? How much pragmatism do you embrace before you lose your soul? As is always the case with Wraight's Terra, every solution is an ugly one, taken at great cost. And despite a positive pile-up of primarchs, it never devolves into fist-fights or cape comic shenanigans. These are war leaders; they're trying to lead war, not have honour duels.

 

Wraight's Guilliman is my new favourite portrayal of him. He is the statesman supreme, including all the necessary lying, backstabbing, and other dirty dealings. He's unilaterally decided he's the most level head in the room, and wastes no time undermining his opponents. What's more, Ultramarian ships, food, supplies, and ammunitions are the only things allowing anyone to operate on Terra at this point. He doesn't draw attention to it, but everyone knows he has them by the balls.

 

Characterization is sublime across the board, though. For the first time, I found myself really liking Hassan. For the first time, cutting away from the "core plot" to focus on some fleeing Word Bearers or Chaos Cultists didn't make me roll my eyes. Moriana is deftly written to keep us guessing whether she or Cyrene/Kat will be Abaddon's Seer and/or the founder of the Horusians. Xanthus-Fo is thankfully used sparingly, but just enough to give the burgeoning Inquisition's actions an air of suspense. Sindermann's goals still revolve around how information should be shared, now twisted into something more nefarious. Vulkan is probably the most compelling he's ever been. Jaghatai remains two steps out of the grave, in some ways reinforcing how terrible the Heresy was more than Sanguinius being dead and gone. Even Sigismund feels better than the last time Wraight wrote him, and I took great issue with him in Warhawk.

 

Some sundry tidbits:

• Spoiler

  • The main traitor POV being Word Bearers/Iron Warriors was a great choice, it reinforces that both legions, however depleted by the end, were very much involved on Terra the whole way through.
  • There's been much talk about how Chaos was nearly destroyed. That's conjecture, at best, by characters with limited information. A Bloodletter does acknowledge that Chaos took a significant injury, but Wraight words things very carefully to keep things ambiguous. It's up to the reader to determine how severe the damage really is. It is to Chaos' advantage to appear dead and gone at this point as well.
  • The Lady Custodian is set-dressing and is not really a character. She could've been anyone.
  • Lots of respect is piled on Luna, both in the Imperium's past and during Horus' invasion. There's a great sense of deep, byzantine history that makes the Sol system feel more mysterious and alive than ever.
  • The Lion stabbing Russ at the end of The Great Wolf is brought up a few times. It must have been the catharsis he needed, because El'Jonson is mostly stoic and well-composed throughout (personally I miss the volatile mess he was in Dreadwing.)
  • Guilliman is mostly alone in thinking Chaos has been killed. Most of the other loyalist characters are looking desperately for proof to the contrary, to justify immediate reprisal (as in, before Terra is properly stabilized.)
  • Xanthus-Fo is so much more tolerable under Wraight's pen (here and in Warhawk) that it's almost funny. If you haven't read TEATD, he just comes across as a more-sinister-than-average agent of the Sigillite.
  • Every chapter starts with an excerpt from an in-universe text about the Heresy or Scouring. I really hope this continues in future books.

 

My only complaint is that it does cross over into feeling like a lecture on occasion. Not in the sense of saying "no, this is really how it is," but that there's just so much goddamn information that it sometimes gums up the wheels. It's all very interesting, and much of it is necessary to keep the reader up to speed. But, man, it can feel like a history lesson, here and there.

 

If you know the basics of the Heresy, you can read this. Very little is opaque without reading the novel series; if anything, it's vague in the perfect places, weirdly injecting a bit of mystique back into a setting we've explored to death at this point. If you disliked how a lot of the Heresy novels ended up, this doesn't make them homework. On the other hand, this disrespects and contradicts nothing from the Heresy; it feels like an organic follow-up that honours what came before.

 

I love it. I wish Wraight would get the keys to the entire series. He'd probably do justice to everything that needs coverage.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

roomsky likes it

 

I must now immediately revise my opinion to a 0/10 worst book ever and doompost without cease for the entire series.

 

Quote

On the other hand, this disrespects and contradicts nothing from the Heresy; it feels like an organic follow-up that honours what came before.

 

Crazy how we got entirely opposite reads on this: I felt like it was a brutal (but necessary) 'course correction'.

 

Quote

Sigismund

 

The more I let Ashes simmer, the more Sigismund rises as the stand-out for me in a book full of stand-outs and fantastic scenes. When we board that ship and we're coming towards that throne, all I could think was 'LET ME TELL YOU OF THE DAYS OF HIGH ADVENTURE'. 

[Roomsky]

1 hour ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Crazy how we got entirely opposite reads on this: I felt like it was a brutal (but necessary) 'course correction'.

Alright, tell me what you got. I thought every character portrayal was a believable follow-up to what came before (except, perhaps, the Lion.) I didn't read any primarch or other significant astartes character as having not experienced the events of the Heresy novels.

[DukeLeto69]

After a huge case of BL fatigue after the Heresy SoT finale(s) THIS is now a must but…except I am going to stick to my guns and wait for the paperback. M u s t h o l d t h e l i n e

[Fire Golem]

10 hours ago, Roomsky said:

I love it. I wish Wraight would get the keys to the entire series. He'd probably do justice to everything that needs coverage.

 

I also very much wish this was the case. This first book was so good but part of me the whole time was just a bit like ‘it’s a shame the series will probably end up as uneven as the heresy or even the siege series’. 
 

But yeah pretty much agree with everything you said. The characters are all excellent, such a diverse cast with different views on what happened and where to go next. Malcadors bunch are actually interesting, I always love Wraights politicking Guilliman, the two main Traitor POVs and how they play off each other and how that thread ended was awesome. I also love the snippets that start each chapter, from memoirs, interrogations etc. What a start to the Scouring. Please may it continue. 

[wecanhaveallthree]

I just did a big whinge about Perturabo over on 40klore, and I'm shameless enough to lazily copy/paste.

 

Spoiler

I cannot overstate how much I hate this. Perturabo deciding to piss off halfway through the Siege because LE WARP was egregious enough, but having him actually have just been chilling out at the edge of Sol waiting to see how things worked out - then seeing them totally collapse in failure - and then doing a total about face and go 'HMMMM ACTUALLY WARP IS... LE GOOD' makes absolutely zero sense on any level.

 

Yeah, I get that we needed him to become a daemon, but the soul-wound set up in Angel Exterminatus was going to do that one way or another. I get the concept here, that the Iron Cage is going to be the 'big sacrifice' that brings the 'gifts' back, but man, it could not be a lamer characterisation if it was actively trying.

 

...

 

Perturabo makes bad decisions in the moment - he strangles his sister, he screws up at Phall, he quits the Siege in a huff - I agree he's volatile and self-sabotaging, and he can be hypocritical, but there are lines he's just not going to cross. Perturabo has been burned by the Warp (and Chaos in particular) over and over again. He got jacked by Fulgrim, he got used up by Horus, gestures at the first Obliterator. He has just come off witnessing first-hand the powers of the Warp get smacked down. They lost. Ashes is all about everyone, even the Word Bearers, going 'uhhhhh Warp... le bad?' with post-Chaos clarity. Perturabo quit the Siege because he didn't want his victory cheapened by Chaos, and waddyaknow, Chaos lost the Siege once he left. The Siege vindicates Perturabo. His way was best after all. The Warp is weakness. He's always known that - just look at Slaves to Darkness when he's scruffing Angron.
 

So why, after having his position totally vindicated, having seen the Warp fail spectacularly - with the evidence he has, with all the experiences he's obtained - would he ever, ever go 'ya know what, maybe we should give this Warp thing a go'. :cuss:, there's a quote in this very book where he's explicitly 'fundamentals > complexity'.

It makes no sense.

 

TL;DR You're riding around on your bike. Your friends all turn up on their flashy Doomrider 3000's (powered by CHAOS). You grit your teeth and keep on pedallin'. Over the next few miles, despite things going well, you decide: no, screw this, you're not gonna gonna wheel around with the Doomriders, no matter how good they seem. And then your friends variously blow up, explore, are sucked screaming into the void, have their brains pulled out while they beg for mercy, and one of them gets erased from existence while the Big Four Bikeshops laugh at him. 

 

You watch all of this from up on the hill you biked off to with your functional and, most importantly, surviving bicycle.

 

A wheel rolls by. Bent. On fire. Full of tentacles.

 

Then you're like damn.

 

I gotta get me one of those!

 

edit: literally me arguing about spacemans on christmas eve

Edited December 24, 2025 by wecanhaveallthree
no crust of bread for those in need, no edits for us meeses

[Fedor]

I was disappointed we didn't get any hints of Ferrus beginning his glacially slow regeneration through sheer force of will within the remnants of the black cof...carapace on Istvaan.

[Roomsky]

7 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

I just did a big whinge about Perturabo over on 40klore, and I'm shameless enough to lazily copy/paste.

 

  Hide contents

I cannot overstate how much I hate this. Perturabo deciding to piss off halfway through the Siege because LE WARP was egregious enough, but having him actually have just been chilling out at the edge of Sol waiting to see how things worked out - then seeing them totally collapse in failure - and then doing a total about face and go 'HMMMM ACTUALLY WARP IS... LE GOOD' makes absolutely zero sense on any level.

 

Yeah, I get that we needed him to become a daemon, but the soul-wound set up in Angel Exterminatus was going to do that one way or another. I get the concept here, that the Iron Cage is going to be the 'big sacrifice' that brings the 'gifts' back, but man, it could not be a lamer characterisation if it was actively trying.

 

...

 

Perturabo makes bad decisions in the moment - he strangles his sister, he screws up at Phall, he quits the Siege in a huff - I agree he's volatile and self-sabotaging, and he can be hypocritical, but there are lines he's just not going to cross. Perturabo has been burned by the Warp (and Chaos in particular) over and over again. He got jacked by Fulgrim, he got used up by Horus, gestures at the first Obliterator. He has just come off witnessing first-hand the powers of the Warp get smacked down. They lost. Ashes is all about everyone, even the Word Bearers, going 'uhhhhh Warp... le bad?' with post-Chaos clarity. Perturabo quit the Siege because he didn't want his victory cheapened by Chaos, and waddyaknow, Chaos lost the Siege once he left. The Siege vindicates Perturabo. His way was best after all. The Warp is weakness. He's always known that - just look at Slaves to Darkness when he's scruffing Angron.
 

So why, after having his position totally vindicated, having seen the Warp fail spectacularly - with the evidence he has, with all the experiences he's obtained - would he ever, ever go 'ya know what, maybe we should give this Warp thing a go'. :cuss:, there's a quote in this very book where he's explicitly 'fundamentals > complexity'.

It makes no sense.

 

TL;DR You're riding around on your bike. Your friends all turn up on their flashy Doomrider 3000's (powered by CHAOS). You grit your teeth and keep on pedallin'. Over the next few miles, despite things going well, you decide: no, screw this, you're not gonna gonna wheel around with the Doomriders, no matter how good they seem. And then your friends variously blow up, explore, are sucked screaming into the void, have their brains pulled out while they beg for mercy, and one of them gets erased from existence while the Big Four Bikeshops laugh at him. 

 

You watch all of this from up on the hill you biked off to with your functional and, most importantly, surviving bicycle.

 

A wheel rolls by. Bent. On fire. Full of tentacles.

 

Then you're like damn.

 

I gotta get me one of those!

 

edit: literally me arguing about spacemans on christmas eve

Counterpoint: Perturabo just experienced Chaos almost eat the entire galaxy, and he was right in the middle of the whole mind:cuss: that enveloped the Sol system. He's seen the Eye all the time, ever since he was a child. Yes, he saw his brothers become sock-puppets for the gods and fail - but he's also experienced first hand the supreme power of the warp. He's seen, what he considers and has good reason to, the ultimate power in the universe. It must be harnessed somehow. A dangerous weapon is still a weapon, Perturabo's not the sort to just ignore it - at least, not if he thinks he can wield it his way. If instead of Chaos there was a very big evil gun that killed you half the time, Pert's the sort who would find a way to fire it anyway.

But I'm also with you in that his being weakened/slowly dying because of Fulgrim would be the superior motive.

EDIT:

Edited December 24, 2025 by Roomsky

[Malkydel]

I suppose a useful counterpoint is that Perturabo has seen the excesses of Chaos at its height and now sees it at its nadir and feels he can bend it to purpose. He isn't willing to let the Word Bearers kickstart the fire again, and is happy to go scorched earth on the entire affair in Sol and outwith, but he sees an opportunity.

 

And beyond that, the analytical mind of Perturabo cannot stand something that he cannot break down, quantify and control. He wants to do to the Warp exactly what Ortag does to land. He wants to break it, dominate it, control it and shape it. Because everyone who supped deeply of it is dead or absent. He remains. Mortal. Detached. Able to establish his mark upon it. Ortag can see that it is utter folly; but Perturabo cannot stand the idea of not being the one who truly commands things. He wants his preeminence; and if all his brothers succumbed to the taint, only he can endure it. Master it. Prove himself to all.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

It must be harnessed somehow. 

Quote

Perturabo has seen the excesses of Chaos at its height and now sees it at its nadir and feels he can bend it to purpose. 

Quote

He wants his preeminence

 

Perturabo, as of only a few books ago, specifically quit the greatest battle of his life at the moment of victory against his greatest opponent, whom he wants to beat more than literally anything else in the entire galaxy, because he didn't want to harness the Warp.

 

This was the biggest and most impactful decision he has ever made: to put his principles above his desires. Perturabo has seen every single attempt by every single character who has tried to yoke this force get utterly annihilated over an entire series of books, one way or another. I get where my fellow fraters are coming from - Perturabo is arrogant, he's hypocritical, he's an opportunist, etc - but to do this, he has to 180 on his huge principled stand and ignore literally years of evidence that what he's proposing to do doesn't work. Could I see him, in extremis, doing an about-face? Yeah, sure. Could I see him turning to the Warp in desperation - absolutely. That's what I expected for the Iron Cage: Perturabo ultimately being run down and deciding to perform this big sacrificial ritual because he's going to die from his soul-wound/fleet combat. Not going down like Mortarion, not waiting for the Powers to make him an offer, but seizing it on his terms (while thinking he can, perhaps, ride the lightning). 

 

But we're not anywhere close to a point where that decision makes sense. Certainly not at a point where Perturabo can come down and calmly lay out such a plan immediately after seeing the last people who tried that plan die spectacularly. 

[Roomsky]

56 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

Perturabo, as of only a few books ago, specifically quit the greatest battle of his life at the moment of victory against his greatest opponent, whom he wants to beat more than literally anything else in the entire galaxy, because he didn't want to harness the Warp.

 

 

Not really.

"Horus has given this battle to sorcerers and beasts. The war of Legions is over. Mortarion comes here to take this place. He and what he has become is what this war is now. He comes at the will of Horus to be the agent of what will happen."
...

 

"It is my will. There is no victory here, just creatures and parasites pulling down a dying beast. It is gone. The Legion war is dead. The chance is gone. The cause is gone…’ Perturabo paused, and then shook his head. ‘We will not bleed for this. We will not break the circle of our iron for this."

Yes, Chaos being involved is what led to the decision, but he left because he was being ill-used for a cause he did not sign up for. He was at Terra on principle, and that principle ceased to exist. Nothing was being done for his benefit. What he is doing now is explicitly for his benefit, his legion's, and their power. He believes he can outsmart the gods and make the powers work for him. Foolish, perhaps, but not contradictory.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Perturabo's principles - it's a subjective thing. I think the text you quote shows Perturabo's utter disdain for Chaos and what it inexorably leads to. But 'foolish' is an utter understatement. It's rank idiocy. I could understand it if it came later. I think Ashes and the 'giftless' world absolutely sets up the idea that Perturabo could (stupidly) believe that he could bring the gods back and master them somehow, even if that's dumb beyond pretty much all belief, but that the Siege is over and Chaos has lost and every single person including the Word Bearers are like 'whoops!' and Perturabo's immediate reaction is 'wow actually you guys were right' is just incomprehensible.

 

There is a perfectly workable narrative for it over time, but the immediacy makes Perturabo look like a complete idiot. In a book where every other character is reasonable or, at very least, acting on bad information, it's particularly egregious. And with Perturabo seeming to be the focal point of this narrative arc - he's going to do the Iron Cage to bring the 'gifts' back - I'm really not loving it. 

 

WHICH IS PISSING ME OFF. Because I absolutely will put money on Perturabo's Iron Cage being a well-planned ritual that bootstraps him up into the Great Game without a patron or patronage, very deliberately, and that's an unequivocal win for the character that will make everybody in the setting scream and gnash their teeth. He's gonna outplay everybody, and it's gonna be great. 

[1ncarnadine]

2 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Could I see him turning to the Warp in desperation - absolutely. That's what I expected for the Iron Cage: Perturabo ultimately being run down and deciding to perform this big sacrificial ritual because he's going to die from his soul-wound/fleet combat. Not going down like Mortarion, not waiting for the Powers to make him an offer, but seizing it on his terms (while thinking he can, perhaps, ride the lightning). 

I'm glad we're not getting this because I would hate it. It's against the Index Astartes description of the Iron Cage, and that's essentially what I'd like to see. Just play the hits.

In the Iron Cage I want (and in IA: IW), Perturabo sets it up for the Fists well ahead of time. There's no desperation, just a sophisticated and evil plan borne to fruition. Dorn expects this to be their resolution, an honorable fight where he and his brother finally settle their score, but at this point Perturabo has moved on to new goals, and Dorn and the Fists get absolutely mauled by the trap. Eventually Dorn has to be saved by the Ultramarines. Perturabo only takes too long and fails to annihilate them because he's grown to enjoy tormenting them too much, then takes heaps of gene-seed and ascends to daemonhood on his own terms. Not being forced to because he's cornered, or because that "soul-wound"* was going to become a mortal failing. Meanwhile the Fists take nearly two decades to return to strength and Dorn is left an utterly broken man, having failed in every way.

I just want that. No significant subversion of expectations. Just the one major win that Chaos is supposed to get in the Scouring described in detail.

I think what will be changed is the size of the conflict. Instead of just mentioning Sebastus IV, they mention a series of planets in Ashes, so maybe it's a conflict that spans systems now? Like the Beta-Garmon conflict. And I suspect that rather than being surprised by just really vicious tactics, the Fists will be ambushed by the Iron Warriors embracing Chaos and warp-based weaponry, where they expected to just grind through via gruelling siege warfare (but without the IW relying on the warp extensively, which they would not have done to the same extent previously).

*I suspect this is still going to crop back up though, right? When was the last time it was mentioned? I feel like it was Slaves to Darkness but was it brought up during the Siege?

Edited December 25, 2025 by 1ncarnadine

[Osteoclast]

A profound meh from me. 

Spoiler

“Surprise, it’s Perturabo” was an interesting twist for half a second until its revealed that he’s somehow in a stealthed out Gloriana and battleship task group and he’s decided to just go guzzle Chaos and he’s already figured out the plan of the Word Bearers and tracked down and destroyed all their many ritual locations in secret ahead of the Ultramarines. 
 

Jumping EVA to land on broken space station and without thrusters or anything to slow you down? No. Just no. 
 

I am begging sci-fi writers to play Kerbal Space Program and learn how physics works and how intercepts work in a 3D space. Escaping the system shouldn’t be hard; pick a direction and boost as hard as you can till you reach a point you can jump into the warp. 
 

“Guilliman does a coup” would be a lot more interesting if he wasn’t so weirdly antagonistic and off putting in it. He’s launching a soft coup and completely unaffable which is just bizarre. 
 

The horde of buried black ships is dumb and I refuse to take it seriously. To be fair, Luna in general was dumb, but this is definitely one of the dumbest McGuffins imo. 

5/10 maybe? I don’t hate it, I didnt necessarily like it, I read through it faster than my previous book of a bunch of sermons by St. Charles Borromeo but honestly enjoyed that rather more. 

[Roomsky]

OH MY GOODNESS I forgot about them jumping out of the moving ship.

 

Yeah, that's a point off from me. Theokon and co. should be splatters on that orbital fortress.