The Defiler'ment of the Emperor's Children

[LSM]

With WarCom's preview of the rules for the new Emperor's Children Defiler we of the Third enter a new era of listbuilding.

 

A (probably expensive) long-range Anti-Tank/Monster piece, which was previously absent. (Aside: I wonder how whichever dev made the choice to leave Chaos Predators and Forgefiends out of the Codex feels about it.) 

 

The unit's bespoke EC Ability (+1 to Hit on targets over Half-Strength) is especially useful for the initial salvo (allowing Lords Exultant, Noise Marines, and Daemon Princes to then finish things off), and continues our streak of having some pretty fun/thematic abilities. (EC Defiler isn't interested in putting things out of their misery; it wants to put them into misery.)

 

While the Lascannons jump out as obvious picks, I have also seen some people wondering about the Autocannons/Electroscourge in Carnival (for the 5+ Sustained Hits).

 

I also want to call out the increase in Movement - from 8" to 12", as well as the supercharging of 'Scuttling Walker'. For a model with a ~6" base, those are big improvements.

 

 

Edited March 25 by LSM

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Its a great addition to EC, has good (and characterful) special rule and gives us some much needed shooting.  And while I think none of the weapon options are bad, given our shortage of antitank, I do suspect that the 2x lascannon + ectoplasm build is probably the way to go, at least under the current codex.

 

Seems like an strong inclusion in any EC list, though that will depend on point costs, of course.  Can't see it being any cheaper than a land raider... so probably in the 250-300 point range.  Any cheaper than that, seems like an auto include, more than that and it may be too expensive, certainly for more than one.

[01RTB01]

From day one of seeing the updated mini I really wanted a pair and seeing the rules just reaffirms it. 

 

It'll mean I can retire the wardogs from my competitive list and hopefully have space for dual defilers. For more casual gaming I'll definitely be giving them a go. 

 

I'm thinking one with dual las and one last/ Electroscourge. Being able to move 12 + advance, shoot and charge is just really good. 

 

I was running fulgrim, flying Prince, dual maulers and triple karnivores alongside 3 lords exultant plus infractors and 2x min Tormentors for objectives.

 

Defilers plus noise marines I'm wondering if that'll make for a viable firebase too. Ultimately it should mean we see differences in lists - points depending. 

[Prot]

So I’m going to be a bit controversial in my thoughts…. Just cause I like playing devils advocate. 
 

Cost wise I’m going to say this should be very close to a land raider. A land raider has great, varied shooting and an assault ramp whereas the Defilee is great at CC. But this is one of the reasons it becomes mediocre, at least the traditional Defiler did. You are paying prime points for a dual role unit. I kept playing a defiler or two in multiple lists, and no one else was doing this and for good reason.  In the meantime GW knew no one was taking them and kept lowering the points. 
 

the big issue I have with paying big points for larger dual role units is they are really hard to maximize. In 10th edition the tables are loaded with terrain. I found it incredibly difficult using 1 never mind 2 in a game. Further to this, they didn’t have a base.  I’ve heard this thing has a base as big or bigger than a knight. This is going to be incredibly cumbersome and extremely predictable for your opponent. They can tunnel you based on numerous choke points in 10th terrain layouts. This essentially made it a single role unit, and inevitably had me pull defiles from my list. Even with point discounts. And yes I had two of the old school washing machines on legs!

 

the big plus is this unit fills a huge gap for a few armies and it looks amazing. 

Edited March 26 by Prot

[LSM]

Initial points are out: 250.

 

Pretty reasonable, and about where I think most people thought it would be.

 

Also, as a little bonus, the Strike profile of the EC Defiler's claws have [Precision].

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

That's very interesting and not at all expected - being able to charge a unit and snipe a character is potentially quite powerful, especially as you have a pretty good chance of doing so (LOS difficulties aside).

 

I had a look at all the dataslates, and it seems like they have tweaked weapon profiles to match their faction - all the Death Guard (non-torrent) weapons get LETHAL HITS, all the World Eater (non-torrent) guns get worse BS and RAPID FIRE of 1 to 3 (depending on the gun - rapid fire and melta is a combo I never expected to see, yet here it is), while Thousand Suns is a bit more complicated, with +1 S magna cutters and 1 better AP on the excrutiator cannons and reaper autocannon.  All in all, I think GW has done a pretty good job on balancing the variants, with those with the best special rules, like Emperor's Children, getting the lease weapon buffs.

 

250 seems like a good price and I think we can expect to see it go up if it finds success competitively.  Certainly, I'm thinking about how to fit one into my curent list - probably take out my older demon prince model and a lord kakaphonist.

[LSM]

A reddit thread has confirmed that it's still on a 160mm base, as well as showing off a side-profile on the EC head:

 

[Slaanbull]

This is all very interesting. I am monstrously allergic to 160mm bases, but at least it has a movement ability in-built, rather than requiring a specific detachment to vault through ruins!

 

The electroscourge is an extremely tasty profile on such a monster, but I think that the first defiler I will bring in most instances should have twin shooting option to help secure the early Coterie pledges. This piece with its long range and being the ultimate distraction type piece (although not terribly hardy, be extra careful with positioning!) helps us pounce a bit earlier in the game rather than setting up for a late all-in turn. It’s size also forces an earlier confrontation just by sheer footprint, which can be a bit of a double-edged sword I feel.

 

I will have to build something with a big scourge though, the scourge is so so tasty and rule of cool will trump the shooting profile so I’m already turning my back on previous thoughts. 
 

 

In regards to the design; I love all the fleshy parts and in general want more of that mix between flesh and metal, this model is also more of a monster and less of a dinosaur than our other machines which is welcome (although not surprising since we had an existing design to build on). One gripe though is that I want more engine than daemon on our daemon engines. I like the idea of a daemons tortured and trapped inside of a shell, rather than a big daemon with armour with no seals or chains or similar! I’ve been holding on to a plaguecrawler ever since we had the first expectations of a defiler redesign years ago, as I have been wanting to make something inspired by the Liber Chaotica (Khorne volume) defilers:

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Thanks for sharing the head, @LSM - it looks better than the GW photo had me think it was.  I wonder if its the right scale to use on the current GW demon prince.

 

You totally should build a defiler like that, @Slaanbull - I would love to see you work your conversion fu on a bigger scale.  A couple of years ago I kitbashed my own with a very similar concept - a tank possessed by a demon, rather than a demon made into a tank.  I would love to see your take on the concept.

 

I am very eager to get my model into my EC list - turns out I can fit it in by dropping my older (and uglier) winged demon prince, point-filling wargear and swapping a lord kakaphonist to a sorcerer (not to keen on the last change, but not sure how else to get those last 10 points).  Also happy that, with minimal conversion, I can make my monstrosity able to take all the new options except the ectoplasm cannon - just need to kitbash some new pintle mounts to represent the new chest gun options, make a couple of twin linked lascannons and sponson mounted flamers so I can take a baleflamer and the scourge at the same time (currently, they are set up as options for the same mount on my model).  Such may have to wait until after Call to Arms, though - and ideally, I would like to get it some kind of base (I'm not sure it would fit on a 160mm one).  For now, though, I'll probably field it with battlecannon, excrutiators, lascannon and missile, as that seems the best loadout with for the options I currently have modelled.

 

Eventually, should I field 2, I think one will be long ranged with 2x lascannons, excrutiators and chest ectoplasm, and the other (my current model) being close ranged with scourge, baleflamer, magnacutters and chest battlecannon.   

Edited April 2 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Slaanbull]

Holy cow(head mutation) that is a fantastic model you’ve made! Gels perfectly with the theme. I imagine it will just barely fit on a 160mm. 

I have made a grave mistake and accepted a team tournament in Malmö, Sweden next month, even though I don’t have the time or energy to participate..!  

It’s a great bunch of people to play with so it’ll be great nonetheless. And I will try to bring two defilers to report back on their prowess; one made from the new kit with minimal converting (to make the deadline) and an older counts as kharybdis I built years ago and which is already on a 160mm and plenty of guns. Tips for written batreps and notetaking during games very welcome in my DMs, I’ll do my best to make the Dark Prince satisfied for the weekend.

 

Seeing all the options on the leaked(?) instruction pages is great, looks like it will be both easy to magnetize and use extra bits for kitbashing.

Still getting used to our new 18” sonic weapons, but I find that the magma cutters on this defiler and maulerfiends lend themselves well to sonic weapons conversions to mimic the short range and rough shooting. The torso cannon is by itself also a fun placement for a huge sonic gullet or gun.

Only because I have nowhere else to put this, are we expecting to get more unit options in the new edition? Codex reuse suggests no, not until updated codex. But maybe the floodgates are open with the shooty defiler. As far as I can see there’s no studio painted iron warriors helbrute even though it’s perfect alongside mutilators… A new one could contain a similar amount of differenciated legion bits. I’d argue the helbrute is rather new, but they did just update the raptors which aren’t much older.

[LSM]

There appear to be a couple amusing typos in the app update:

• The Claws' Sweep profile has a BS of 63+.
• The Hades Lascannons have a range of 12".

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, the claw is certainly a lot worse if you need to roll a 63 on a d6 to hit.  

 

As for the lascannon, if it came out at the same time as the codex, you would think was an actual design choice by GW as part of its philosophy that "Emperor's Children can't be shooty".  Fortunately, though, its just a typo - though I'm sure it will trigger some people's PTSD. 

 

@Slaanbull - good luck on your tourney and getting your models ready for it.  Not sure if my defiler fits on a 160mm base - I was hoping to pick one up to find out, but both they and the new defiler were sold out in the short time that passed before I realised the preorders were up.  So it will have to remain baseless for now.

Edited April 16 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Slaanbull]

My personal results are in, and the defiler did exactly what I wanted it to do. I have not played many games of 10th so take it all with a grain of salt!

 

Five games in a weekend tournament, and only once did it feel like my defilers were the hunted and not the hunters. This was in a game against Chaos Knights where their melee rampager and wardogs posed quite the threat although it was missiles and gatlings that ended up being the biggest threats to my engines.

 

Played two defilers for the 2k games with lascannons and excruciators which I still believe to be the most effective EC build. The shooting spread combined with fall back (towards new targets) and advance is so tasty. 
On my team we had a CSM list with two defilers, who together with our guard player had much higher demands for terrain setup than me. While my EC versions were much less concerned with bottlenecking my army and could clear many more units and ruins. While I dislike the enormous bases they worked wonders as move blockers in an army that relies in quite small footprints and costly infantry units. In the previously mentioned CK game, the large baseplate allowed me to position to shut off some enemy vehicle charges as well.

 

In coterie of the conceited I almost exclusively used my CP for Armour of Abhorrence and gambly overwatches which kept the opponent on their toes as I could save it for wounded vehicles who might otherwise pose a threat. We do also have the FNP and target selection strat in this detachment which works too well (imo) with what we gain from the defiler.

It worked especially flawlessly in matchups against a DA and a BA player. I think most of our statblocks are quite good at dealing with marines and elites, but -1 damage, -1 to hit and wound, as well as fights first models is really punishing against our mid-to-high quality output.

Having precision on the defiler claws allowed me to pick out the Fights First and other buffers from a unit, the defiler if surviving could then fall back next turn and let infantry clean up for actions etc.

 

They were so much fun to play, and as I cannot convince myself to field more than one daemon prince in a list they did a lot of the heavy lifting usually performed by them in between tank shock, long range shooting, blocking, and the general distraction of reliably advancing 16-18” with a 160mm monster, shooting, and then charging was really oppressive for many opponents.
With the mobility and large wound-block I also only needed to advance them early game, so as to not prevent my thrill seekers target selection mid-game when I needed to surge up noise marines and gang up on heavier hitters.

[LSM]

Initial points in 11th:

• Gone up 40 points at base, to 290.
• Each Lascannon or Autocannon taken is an additional +10 points.
• Tax of +30 points on additional Defilers.

So a pair of double-Las Defilers have gone from 500pts to 650pts.

 

...fair? They are quite good.

 

(Maulerfiends continue to be 130. Daemon Princes down to 170, +15 for additional. Wing'd Daemon Princes down (!) to 205, +30 for additional. Heldrake down to 175, and no longer an Aircraft.)

 

Edited June 17 by LSM

[LSM]

Per the 22/07 points updates:

• Gone up another 10 at base, to 300.

• Each Lascannon or Autocannon taken is now an additional +15 points.

• And the tax on multiple is an additional +40 points.

So a pair of double-Las Defilers have gone from 650pts to 700pts.

 

(Rhinos are down -10 each for the first three (?!), Fulgrim down -10, Lucius down -10, Maulerfiends down -10, Shalaxi down a big -25, and the EC Sorcerer drops another -5.)

 

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

Per the 22/07 points updates:

• Gone up another 10 at base, to 300.

• Each Lascannon or Autocannon taken is now an additional +15 points.

• And the tax on multiple is an additional +40 points.

So a pair of double-Las Defilers have gone from 650pts to 700pts.

 

(Rhinos are down -10 each for the first three (?!), Fulgrim down -10, Lucius down -10, Maulerfiends down -10, Shalaxi down a big -25, and the EC Sorcerer drops another -5.)

 

 

The EC Defliler has gotten off lightly all things considered.

Ours lost our Fnp and our Overwatch got swapped with Counteroffensive.

 

On the subject of the dataslate tho, some other things of note:

Frenzied Host lost the "Host" tag (looks to have been removed entirely) and is now a Recon Detachment.

Carnival of Excess and Spectacle of Slaughter are now Disruption Detachments.

Coterie of the Conceited is now a Priority Assets Detachment.

 

Could potentially affect the viability of a Defiler (or multiple) in the given Detachments.

Edited July 22 by Indy Techwisp

[Dr_Ruminahui]

3 maulerfiends are now only 50 points more than one shooty defiler.  Not sure how that math works game wise, though, as we really need more shooting not more things trying to get around ruins and into combat.

 

I'm guessing that still nobody is going to take the sorcerer - it simply doesn't serve a useful role except, if its cheap enough, as a random objective holder and action monkey.  I guess someday it might be cheap enough to see regular use for that, but for now it kind of remains a joke - 55 points is kind of ridiculous for a (chaos) space marine character, but probably still isn't low enough.

 

I find the rhino change kind of funny - that seems to be changes to rhinos across the board for all the armies that can take them (including sisters of battle), so its obviously a systemic change rather than an individual faction balance one.  Still, who is taking 4+ rhinos, and if one is, is I'm not sure how paying the normal cost for them is oppressive.

Edited July 22 by Dr_Ruminahui