Terrain, hidden and solid floors

[Galron]

Ok, maybe this is because I played the last two editions on essentially set it up like we want boards and the three different groups I play with play each differently but how does terrain work? By playing differently I mean, one group played with the bottom floor closed, one group played closed but windows and doors were still open and could be shot through, the last group played book rules where if you were in the terrain you were visible but got a cover save. It was always annoying remember the rules each time I went somewhere. Even worse when I suffered a brain fart and was playing mixed rules at the same time and not even realizing it.

 

So with the new rules, is terrain open thus utilizing the new hidden mechanic for units that dont shoot out of it or are the bottom floors closed and no one can shoot in or out? How do vehicles toe into terrain and shoot out like I keep hearing if the latter is the case? The one game I have played we just played everything as closed for simplicity's sake but neither of us nor the adjacent table playing knew the real correct answer. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

This is all set out at page 50 of the Core Rules PDF.  Basically, 11th ed. characterizes terrain in 2 ways:

   a) terrain areas - the footprint or template of the terrain.

   b) terrain features - the vertical elements of the terrain.

 

For the below, its important to remember that "in" means any part of the model or its base being in - so includes models that are just touching the terrain area.

 

If all models in an infantry, beast or swarm unit are in any terrain area and/or are obscured (so, LOS is partially or wholy blocked) by terrain areas or features get the benefit of cover (so, get the benefit of -1 BS).  Other types of units cannot get the benefit of cover from terrain unless there are other rules that specifically say they can - they are either in LOS or they aren't.

 

Hidden is on a model by model basis - any infantry, beast or swarm model that is in a unit that didn't shoot in the previous shooting phase that is in a terrain area with light or dense terrain features (PDF just says dense, but this has been FAQed) can be hidden.  While a mdoel is hidden, enemies can't draw LOS to that model unless they are within 15" (plus/minus any modifiers).  The FAQ seems to suggest that if you have LOS to a non-hidden model, you can measure range to shoot the unit to a hidden model, but that seems a bit odd to me and we will see how that works.

 

There is also something called Go to Ground that affects hidden, but to my knowledge at this moment its only in the app, which I don't have, so I can't comment on exactly how it works.

 

Light terrain features are basically low walls.  Dense terrain features are typically high walls.  Dense terrain features have Solid, which means that the bottom 3" of the feature (so, the actual model) blocks LOS regardless of any holes or gaps in the model.

 

So, lets say you have a unit in a fairly typical terrain feature, where on the "front" edge there is a large wall piece at one end, and a small wall piece at the other end, with a gap between them.

 

a)  for a unit fully on the other side (so are not in the terrain area) where no line can be drawn to it from the firing unit without crossing the terrain area, there is no LOS even if you can physically see the model across the terrain.

 

b)  for models in the terrain who can't be physically seen because terrain features are in the way, there is no LOS to those models.  If there is no LOS to the unit as a whole (whether because the models are behind the terrain area as per a), lack LOS because of the terrain features, or are hidden), the unit can only be shot by indirect fire.

 

c)  for models who can be physically seen through a terrain feature, if the feature has Solid (so, all Dense terrain) you pretend you can't and you don't have LOS to that model.  If the feature doesn't have Solid or you can physically draw LOS through it above 3", there is LOS to the model, but the unit may have the benefit of cover (see examples below).

 

d)  for a unit, it has benefit of cover if all models in the unit are in a terrain area, wholely behind a terrain area, or partially behind a terrain area or feature.

 

 

[Galron]

So basically we are back to True Line of Sight? Arent most building type terrain pieces which in my experience are 99% of terrain then considered solid? Thus only someone on the second floor would benefit from the actual hidden rule if he stands there and doesnt shoot? 

 

On those smaller pieces, with a corner wall section that is considered ruins(?) if a lone guy is standing in the corner on the template, but cant physically see someone on the other side of it with TLOS, do we play him as non-visible to them or do we allow him to shoot through the wall, since its part of the ruins template, and vice versa. Ie. does that corner piece constitute actual LOS blocking terrain or is it there for looks and can be placed pretty much anywhere in the template or not even at all?

 

Sorry I am so confused but I have 30+ years of dealing with terrain rules in multiple game systems and groups that play differently stuck in my head and am trying to get it straight. Playing a guy with alot of various terrain this weekend and its his first game.

 

-Obviously if I am behind a template of any terrain from the opponent with no one touching it I am out of LOS. 

-A scout unit inside the first floor of a building even if there are dudes right outside and there are windows and doors, they still cant be seen?

-Same scout unit in ruins can be seen by the unit outdoors but gets cover. But if the ruins has a couple physical walls that block LOS from that angle to the guys outside then they cant be fired at? So in theory I could reactive move to get at an angle I cant be seen while staying in the terrain/

[Dr. Clock]

I get it - it's doubly confusing at the start because we've never really had different 'kinds' of features in the same piece of terrain before...

 

The first thing to separate in the mind is the Area from the Feature. The Area is the footprint that will have one or more features on top. LOS is excluded if drawn 'entirely through' a feature, and some of these are now only 2" across. Last edition this stuff (barricades and pipelines) mostly didn't get played, but it's now pretty important for staging. 

 

The second thing is to separate the 'bits' of terrain (all called 'features') into 'Dense' and 'Light. From your questions it seems like you're basically understanding how Dense works (blocks LOS regardless of enclosed openings in the wall below 3"). If you don't define the 'light' features as such, you get alot more situations where even though you 'toe in' on a corner your LOS is effectively blocked by the pair of features. 

 

The Dense and Light categories only matter once you're talking about minis that are 'on the Area' though... that much is clear. Until people toe in to the areas, you'r drawing LOS from the corners of each footprint.

 

You're correct though that just toeing in on a corner doesn't necessarily give you LOS to al other parts of that feature, as other dense features on that footprint may well block you.

 

The light and dense features are colour-coded on the recommended maps. The objective features most often (always?) have 2 dense features on opposing corners, and I assume it is part of the intent that this lets players both have models on objectives without necessarily being seen by one another. It pays to attend to which corner the 'dense' piece is supposed to go, because doing it asymmetrically or reversed from the intended orientation will quickly change the distances between 'safe spots' and could lead to shooting galleries or... whatever a shooting gallery is for punchy guys.

 

The funny thing about all of this is that in most cases it is easier to 'hide' behind/outside terrain than to start in the feature and try and bank on 15" hidden. Unless you have Stealth and can hide in the open ; ) 

 

TLDR almost nothing is 'TLOS' except usually any tail end of Dense walls on the ground floor with unenclosed openings. We'll get there in a few weeks I'm sure lol.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I found these videos today, which might be helpful - I found them to give a pretty good explanation, anyway.

 

Link: Terrain and Cover