What separates Sanguinary guards from Van vets with Jump packs apart from wounds?

[Rowland]

Guys,

 writing up my Index Astartes for my loyalist chapter who fight using the BA codex.  I’m also making up the BA Combat Patrol but using Vanguard Vets with Jump packs from the Armageddon box (ebay).  I’ve purchased some etsy spears for the Combat Patrol.  I’m not using gold.

What’s the uniqueness to Sanguinary guards that I can write into my IA?

[SvenIronhand]

The wrist-mounted Storm Bolters, for one.

[Mazer Rackham]

Sanguinary Guard are descendants of the Primarch Sanguinius' own bodyguard, and, as per tradition and ritual, form the Chapter Master's elite bodyguard in turn ever since. They are a cadre of ritual-weapon equipped soldiers, whist Vanguard Vets are experienced Veterans allowed choice access to the armoury.

[Rowland]

I’m after their “fighting character” if that makes sense…

I’ve “invented” some characters to play Dante and others but the SG just seem to be tougher jump soldiers…?

Do they get played much?  They feature heavily in the Combat Patrol but aren’t capable of attaching as bodyguard. 
 

Looking at their abilities they have a buff for melee but when “guarding” they get an added buff for toughness. 

Edited June 30 by Rowland

[kabaakaba]

Mm, a bit wrong approach, yeah , they are very very durable jump pack guys who also have -1 to hit in melee and -1 to wound if lead by character. And if new recruit don't lie have 2+ save and 4+ inv. It's like flying terminators.

 

VanVets more about fast infantry, with some special weapon. 

 

but they are in same time most elite guys in BA except Captains. 

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Rowland said:

I’m after their “fighting character” if that makes sense…

I’ve “invented” some characters to play Dante and others but the SG just seem to be tougher jump soldiers…?

Do they get played much?  They feature heavily in the Combat Patrol but aren’t capable of attaching as bodyguard. 
 

Looking at their abilities they have a buff for melee but when “guarding” they get an added buff for toughness. 

 

I wouldn't let Combat Patrol's rules inform your understanding of the Lore or faction identity; it's a stop-gap game to get you interested in bigger armies to spend more money.

SG are the Praetorian Guard of our Chapter Master, and should be treated as such (though maybe not as much of a political force as the Praetorian Guard were in history).  They aren't just 'fancy van vets', they are the cream of the crop of BA's warriors and are on the footing of champions amongst the chapter.

 

In the broader game, at least in 10th, 1-2 squads of them were in almost every competitive BA list since they got refreshed and BA got their codex.  They are about as distinctive to BA as anything else could ever hope to be; no other bespoke unit we have, nor even the non-bespoke stuff (Death Company) show up as much competitively as SG have, at least recently.

In previous editions they ranged from great to terrible, as all datasheets do.  But currently they are just super, super good.

Edited June 30 by DemonGSides

[Rowland]

That’s most excellent, thanks guys, I shall write something appropriate for my chaps.

 

Praetorian guards will do for the name of my SG unit

Edited July 1 by Rowland

[Karhedron]

In games terms Sanguinary Guard are a lot tougher than Ven Vets. This is especially true when they are led by a Character as this activates their "Heirs of Azkellon" rule (incoming melee attacks have a -1 to Wound penalty).

[Rowland]

Thanks,

I’m also trying to make the two combat patrols BA (6 Sang guard) and SM (5 Jump van vets) with the 10 New Jump Van Vets I got off eBay.  I will equip 4 of them with lances but also (and crucially) the Sang guard are on 40mm bases rather than 32mm, I guess a 32mm based one can be magnetised to a 40mm base.

Edited July 1 by Rowland

[Karhedron]

I do not quite understand what you are trying to do. Are you trying to make a model that can be either a Sanguinary Guard or a Vanguard Veteran?

[Rowland]

On a separate note I’m trying to make a 1000 point list that my mate and I can play fairly quickly and as easily as Combat Patrol by choosing “Big guns”.  In other words I’m trying to keep the unit numbers as low as possible to keep all the knowledge, faff, complication to a minimum but still try to have sufficient units to take objectives.

So far it looks like this: (exactly 1k)

Dante attached to 6 Sang Guard.

Chaplain attached to deathguard marines (assault intercessors) x2

Impulsor

Death Dread

and a land speeder.

 

This will be against a 1k Tyranid army with my bigger units in that.

 

 

 

Edited July 1 by Rowland

[Rowland]

11 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I do not quite understand what you are trying to do. Are you trying to make a model that can be either a Sanguinary Guard or a Vanguard Veteran?

Well primarily I’m making my homebrew completely BA codex applicable but without the BA model flavour.  I’m also trying to make those two combat patrols AND field 1k armies in the future.

So pretty much yes but no…From what people are saying is Sang guard trump Van vets.

I’m thinking the older helmets in gold with bigger bases for my Praetorian guard and a scattering of lances.

Edited July 1 by Rowland

[Blindhamster]

so lore wise sanguinary guard are meant to be among the chapters best fighters. 

Their sole purpose was to protect the primarch and now its usually to protect Dante or other individuals he tells them to. 

Vanguard veterans are exactly what they say, vanguard assault troops. 

Sanguinary guard are bodyguards, their special rules represent this with them fighting better when with a character.

 

Rule wise they have better weaponskill, better wounds, better armour than vanvets. 

 

Their basic weapons are also better, both the spear and sword outperform a regular master crafted sword

 

they used to be bearers of the chapter banner but we lost the sanguinary ancient and instead got a rubbish banner model. 

[Tacitus]

Thisn't 100% accurate but it might help - think of Sanguinary Guard as Captains waiting for a company while Vanguard Vets are Sergeants waiting for a squad. 

[Rowland]

Praetorian guard: The Praetorian guard , known as the "Emperors Lance” for their ardour and unwavering devotion, are the most elite Veteran Astartes of the Setting Sons Space Marine Chapter. The Praetorian Guard essentially serves as the Setting Sons version of a Chapter honour guard.

 

 

[Rowland]

Does this mean my Company Heroes are redundant now?

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Rowland said:

Does this mean my Company Heroes are redundant now?

Not at all. A Chapter’s Honor Guard are different from a Company’s bodyguards. The Honor Guard are representatives of the Chapter Master, for good and ill. Some may be assigned to a certain figure as a mark of honor (“you’re so important right now I’m sending my personal elite guard to watch over you”) or as a sign of distrust (“I’m sending my personal elite guard to watch over you…”). This is often only for a single campaign. Company Heroes, however, are always with their company and were elevated to that position by their Captain.

 

By chance, have you read the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher? If so, Company Heroes are like Singulares.

[Brother Raul]

I am finding theres a gulf of a difference at the moment.

 

VV just aren't killing the big stuff reliably.

 

They are also dying very easily.

[brother_b]

Feels there’s no real reason to have Vv as a BA player. Sang guard are slightly more expensive with 1 less wound total but have 3 per model and 2+/4+.

 

The Vv have more base attacks and the Sgt can get a different pistol but I don’t know if that matters.

 

I'm not familiar with BA even thought they’re my favorite SM chapter. I have a small force.

 

I’m interested in hearing more input from other players as I plan to finally start expanding my force now that 1st born are likely truly done and the army is leveling out with the range being new and locked in.

[Karhedron]

VanVets are cheaper and have more attacks but are less durable making them a bit of a glass hammer. They also pair well Dante as his +1 to Hit is wasted on Sanguinary Guard. 

[Blindhamster]

i do think Dante or Guard will change next book, the fluffy unit combo is them but its far from optimal 

[Rowland]

On a slightly different note I have an Astorath type character and it appeared that he could only lead Death Company with Bolt guns and jump packs.  I couldn’t find them on the list, more recently they added death company with jump packs (assault intercessors). Whats with that?