So, do we just suck now? Or do I?

[TheDarkOne]

I am trying to get back into the hobby after a ten year break. When I was playing before I won a lot of tourneys and was an excellent player, always a contender, multiple armies (demons, orks, grey knights, csm, traitor guard, thousands of points in each) so I am no noob.

 

What I am a noob about is that I tried to play 3 games in 10th, and just now today one game in 11th - all went the same: I go second and am gone from the table by my turn 3. Against guard tanks, necrons and custodes in 10th, and salamanders in 11th.

 

My lists in 10th were a mix of dudes and vehicles w bikes and rhinos and vindicators a disco lord and some cultists.

 

I got excited (SO EXCITED) for 11th and the cool new stuff like force dispositions and mixed detachments. But now I am totally demoralized. The game vs salamanders crystallized it - we are absolute trash compared to loyalists, there is no competition.

 

Maybe my list was trash:

 

Warpstrike champions & Murdertalon Raiders (purge the foe)

 

Warlord - Terminator sorcerer lord, attached to 5 terminators

Jump lord with pinions attached to 10 warp talons

Haarkan attached to 10 raptors (2 melta 2 plasma, 5 hv melee)

Disco lord w autocannon technovirus injector

Cypher

Reve captain attached to 10 red corsairs raiders

2x 3 bikers w melta fist

2x vindicators

 

The idea was to do uppy-downy styff with warp talons and terminators, but I never got to my turn 3.

 

I was against salamaders with a librarin detachment and orbital take and hold

 

Vulkan in 10 infernus deepstriking
Librarian in 10 sternguard deepstriking
Adrax agatone in bladeguard vets
1 eradicator squad w a million meltas deepstriking
2 heavy intercessor squads w hv bolters
2 basilleus dreadnoughts w lascannon/missile
2 pred annihilators
2 pred destructors

 

My mission was Unstoppable Force vs his Immovable object.

 

We deploy, on the short tale edge so longwise to get to each-other. He's lined up w tanks and dudes w three squads in reserve and I set up everything but the warp talons and terminators (they're in reserve).

 

Then we roll for first, and he wins which means it's over.

 

His first turn he moves up but stays in/behind cover, and manages to pick off a unit of bikes with a predator and dreadnought.

Bladeguard are in the middle going for central objective and so are my corsair raiders with raptors behind, disco lord and cypher w them. Bikes on the flanks (right squad gone) and vindicators hidden one on either side.

My turn 1, i move up, corsairs move into the middle objective, the raptors into a left of center objective, disco lord goes middle behind terrain, rightmost vindicator lines up to shoot the dread, while keeping cover, and cypher goes middle with the other vindicator and disco lord. Bikes try to screen my back while staying hidden (they fail).

 

I shoot the vindicator at the dread who pops smoke and i do no damage.

 

His turn two, his reserves come in. Vulkan and squad left-mid board lined up to shoot the raptors. Eradicators line up to get my middle vindicator, close enough to shoot despite my screening bikes. Librarian and sternguard land on my empty home objective lined up for my other vindicator on the right. His tanks reposition to draw los, the bladeguard move to the middle to charge my corsairs, and he starts shooting. Oath of moment on my corsairs, blows away a few w heavy intercessors and a pred. Vulkan and squad kill the entire raptors squad and haarkan with their flamers. The eradicators destroy the vindicator. The sternguard and librarian destroy the other vindicator. The dreadnought can see the very tip of my disco lord's claw and proceeds to knock 5 wounds off of him, then another pred takes him down two more leaving him all but dead.

 

The bladeguard charge the corsairs killing them easily. Everything was easy. He had rerolls to hit and wound and plus 1 wound on so many things that his dice rolls were insane. Almost everything he shot at got deleted wholesale.

 

I start turn two with a three wound disco lord, cypher and 3 bikes. Warp talons and termis deepstrike to get at an intercessor squad and pred in his home quarter. Disco lord moves to charge a right side predator, cypher follows, bikes line up to shoot/charge a dread near vulkan on the left.

 

Shooting I pull a few wounds off the dread w melta and manage to hurt the predator a bit with my disco lord shooting. Cypher takes a few wounds off intercessors with pistols. Termis cant see anything useful.

 

Charge phase I use the strat to give my warp talons +2" charge, they make it in w intercessors and a predator, terminators fail their charge. Bikes charge dread. Disco lord charges predator. I kill the predator some intercessors and thats it. Warp talons can't leave.

 

His turn 3 he kills the rest of my models w shooting.

 

So... clearly we suck, I suck, or I did something (many things?) grievously wrong.

 

I feel completely disheartened at the absolute power difference between our codex and the loyalists. Everything i shot i was wounding on 5's. Everything I fought I was wounding on 5's. Heavy Intercessors are t6 3w, something we don't even have access to. Everywhere i matched up with him, his units were better and just completely annihilated mine. I got to fire one vindicator once and it did nothing.

Raptors died without doing anything at all. Bikes suck. Terminators didn't do anything and just died like chumps. Warp talons couldn't chew through a squad. Corsairs got shot and charged and never got to shoot or swing. Disco lord killed something, but couldn't hide at all and was easy pickings after shooting left him at 3 wounds.

 

So, other than "play defilers", what can we do as a codex when we are so clearly outmatched vs vanilla marines?

 

I... just feel hopeless and that everything I've built is just trash. Makes me want to just put it all back in storage and give up.

 

Here's what i have to work with model-wise to build from:

 

Disco lord
Sorc lord termi
Jump lord
Haarkan
Fabius bile
Huron blackheart
Chaos lord
Reve captain
Dark commune

5 terminators
40 marines that could be corsairs raiders legionaires or chosen or whatever
30 cultists
Full size accursed cultists
6 bikes
2 rhinos
2 vindicators
1 hellbrute
5 havocs
10 raptors
10 warp talons
Masters of the maelstrom
4 war dogs (any config)

 

I... don't even know where to start making a list anymore... anyone having a similarly hard time playing the game?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Sounds like my history with Necrons - last game by the time I called it quits, through his resurection I hadn't killed a single model... very demoralizing.  This was with my Emperor's Children, though I can't say my CSM would have been any different.

 

I don't think its CSM in general, as some builds do quite well in tournaments.  That said, doing well now is very build and skill intensive - pretty much any faction can perform with the right selection of units and skillful piloting.

 

40K currently plays very differently than it did in the past, and is highly terrain dependent I would recommend using the GW recommended tourney layouts for terrain. Without enough (and appropriately placed) terrain, whoever gets to get their meaningful shots in is going to win, unless they expose their units to allow for a powerful crackback - using the GW layouts at least lets elliminate whether you have correct terrain placement from your weighing the results of your games.  Games are a lot more cagey and cat-and-mouse, with the decision on when and how you expose your units one of the most meaningful decisions in the game.  It really takes some getting used to this style of play - and I must admit, I still really haven't. 

 

It may be helpful to watch people play, and pay particular attention to deployment and their decisions on when and where to engage the enemy.  Tabletop Titans on youtube is pretty good for this, as in addition to being pretty entertaining, they can be pretty good at explaining their decisions (particularly in games between Bridger and Adrian).

 

So, I don't think its either you or your army, its just a playstyle that you are unfamiliar with, possibly worsened by inadequate terrain.  Current 40K is incredibly deadly, and therefore really punishes mistakes - while this can make for fun, nail biting games, it also means more board wipes and blowouts.  Myself, I'm not very good at it, but the above comments and advice should still be sound.

 

And yes, vindicator's are called "the Casino Cannon" for a reason - they are incredibly swingy.

 

Anyway, best of luck, and hopefully you can turn your luck around.

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[Tawnis]

Hey Dark One, sorry to hear you've been having such trouble getting back into the hobby. My Chaos lists run pretty different and not at all with what you've' got, but I'll offer some general advice that I think will help out overall as well. 

First off, his list does seems strong, there's a lot of power he can output with it, but not insurmountable with what you've got. 40k was a very different game tactically 10 years ago, and while my break from the hobby was shorter than yours (I got back in about 5 years ago) it still took a fair bit of adjusting in the mentality of how I played the game. 

 

First off, the list:

 

Cypher doens't really do all that much, if you take him out, and combine your bikers into a larger unit to save 10 points, you can bring in 2 units of 10 additional cultists. They won't hit hard, but they can do objectives, and spread out to screen out deep strike threats to keep them away from your heavy hitters. For a quick fix, that will be the most bang for your buck. Also, if you tag one of the tanks with them, it will keep it locked in place and reduce is ballistic skill. 

 

On another note about your list, the Chaos Jump Lord can only lead Raptors, not Warp Talons. Haarkan can also only lead Raptors, and he has the better ability, letting your whole unit deal mortals on the charge, so you should go with him. If you then split your Warp Talons up into 2 units of 5, it will save you 30 points, and five you some more flexibility in moving around. They can pair with your other units to 2v1 enemy targets and help ensure kills, shred lighter units, or screen and do actions. I'm not sure where you're at if your 2k on the nose or not, but that's 5 points shy of adding in your Masters of the Maelstrom to beef up your Corsair Raider unit, this would give your army some re-deploys, revivals, more CP, some extra mortals, and just more bodies in a big fighty blob. 

 

Lastly, I don't think Vidicators are that good, their damage CAN be very impressive, but it's wildly inconsistent, and they are A LOT of points for what you get. If you can run a pair of War Dogs in their place (I'm not a Knights expert so I'm not sure how many you can ally in) your damage output should go up, and you'll free up some additional points too. Depending on the War Dog, that should give you 50-60 more points if you swap them both. Toss in another unit of Cultists for 50 points, along with securing those Masters of the Mealstrom. 

 

Re-learning the ropes is also not helped by your list / detachment choice in general. It's not a bad list by any means, but it's a very high skill cap list, and will take a lot of reps to get really proficient with. For your army, its all about positioning, giving some ground here and there and only taking fights where and when you want them, trying to 2v1 enemy units where possible if they seem extra chunky. Your jump infantry are far more mobile than anything he has, try to find an isolated target, or a place where you can engage with as little clap back as possible and take him apart piece by piece, it doesn't matter too much if you're a little out of position after your kill, with your Warp talons as you pick them up right away. Your terminators are good at this as well with Warp Flicker for advance shoot/charge. Keep your units behind cover where they can't be shot, then blitz out when your enemy is forced to come close. 

Your Disco Lord is a solid fighter and a great buffing unit against vehicles, but he's pretty vulnerable on his own, like your other units, try to keep him concealed behind terrain until you need him to pop out and do stuff. 

Lastly, damage output. Most of the stratagems you have are utility based in these detachments and the units you've chosen don't have the best damage buffing abilities either. Not so say it can't work, you've got battle shock all over the place and with the additional cultists and unit modifications, I think you could play the objective game very well. That being said, I'd consider trying out Realspace Raiders for the extra Pip of AP you get to pretty much everything reavent by default. It's still not ideal, as half the strats effect transports, not that you couldn't build your list that way, you do own the models, but that's even more of a list redesign. Even so, your Warptrike Talons isn't really all that suited for your army either as the buff it does give for uppy downy only effects Terminators, Obliterators, and Mutilators, and you've only got the one Termi unit in your army. At least you get the extra AP from raiders which is huge. 

Looking at what you have though, Plunging Talons to give your Raptors Lance (+1 to wound on the charge) is a huge damage multiplier, and your Disco Lord can buff attacks into vehicles well... other than that, you kinda just have to trust in the Dark Pact rolls, and I suppose the explosives strat. Don't forget your defensive strats though, Emphyric Dislocation can reduce a lot of damage if you have it up and ready.

Best of luck in the rest of your games, I hope you manage to get a few wins in, or at the very least, see some solid improvement in the quality of your matches. 

[Tallarn Commander]

Dark One,

Ruminahui and Tawnis have already given you some superb feedback. Especially that the game has radically changed in the last 10 years. Your list is a good list, but you just need more experience using it. This will come with time.

I also second Tawnis' advice that 1 or 2 Cultist Squads would really help. They can sticky objectives and they excel at denying enemy deep-strikes in your backfield.

I really only have 3 things to say that have not already been said:

1. Tawnis, Dark One was taking the 1 DP Murdertalon detachment and, with the pinion upgrade, his lord can join the Warp Talons. A lord joining a Warp Talon Squad is a combo I used a lot in 10th and plan on using in 11th.

2. The jury is still out on Vindicators. They were certainly a strong unit in 10th, albeit swingy. But the -1 BS against enemies in cover might hurt them quite a bit. It's too soon to tell.

3. Perhaps consider taking the Felhammer Siege Host detachment. It is only 2 DP so it leaves a point for your Murdertalon Detachment. It is not an overtly strong offensive detachment. But it might be a good learning defensive detachment because it is fairly easy to use (it is always on during the enemies' shooting phase) with some nice strats.


Good luck and may the Chaos Gods bless you!

[TheDarkOne]

Thanks for the replies guys, I am going to try a Pactbound zealots more MSU list next time around. Try out some more bodies rhinos and such.

 

re the jump chaos lord, under murdertalon raiders, he can take a 20 point enhancement that makes him a demon and gives +1A and Leader:Warp Talons, allowing him to lead warp talons. I figure a 10 man unit +him is as hard as they could possibly hit.

 

current pactbound zealots proposed list:

 

Pactbound Zealots
Force Dispositions: Priority Assets
Strike Force (2,000 Points)

 

Abaddon the Despoiler (WARLORD)

Chosen
  • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
 

Huron Blackheart 

Masters of the Maelstrom 

Chosen
  • Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
 

Cultist Mob
  • Mark of Chaos: Khorne

 

2x Legionaries
  • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
  • 1x Aspiring Champion
     ◦ 1x Heavy melee weapon
  • 4x Legionary
     ◦ 1x Balefire tomb
     ◦ 1x Chaos Icon
     ◦ 1x Heavy melee weapon
     ◦ 1x Lascannon

 

2x Chaos Rhino
  • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
  • 1x Combi-bolter
  • 1x Combi-bolter
  • 1x Havoc launcher

 

2x Chaos Bikers (70 Points)
  • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
  • 1x Biker Champion
     ◦ 1x Power fist
  • 2x Chaos Biker
     ◦ 2x Astartes chainsword
     ◦ 1x Chaos Icon
     ◦ 2x Meltagun

 

2x Chaos Vindicator
  • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
  • 1x Combi-bolter
  • 1x Havoc launcher

 

Forgefiend
  • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
  • 3x Ectoplasma cannon

 

Helbrute (130 Points)
  • Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
  • 1x Missile launcher
  • 1x Twin lascannon

 

Edited 2 hours ago by TheDarkOne

[Dr_Ruminahui]

One thing to keep in mind is that in 11th its really important to craft your list around whatever your Disposition you choose - so be sure to keep what you are trying to do to score in mind when list building going forward.

 

Oh, and Tallarn Commander's post was hidden when you replied - you may want to scroll just above your post above to read it.

 

One last thing, when you are posting a list for review, it can really help the rest of us if you "collapse" it by deleting and condensing the unit entries.  So, for example, typing: 

 

Forgefiend with Mark of Nurgle and 3x ectoplasm

 

and 

 

5x Legionaries with Mark of Nurgle, bolt pistols & chainswords, icon, lacannon, heavy melee weapon and balefire tome, champion with heavy melee weapon & boltgun.

 

Makes it much easier to read quickly, which helps get responses.
 

Edited 14 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[TheDarkOne]

Just copied and pasted from the app.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yep... but a bit more effort in cutting it down will help anyone who wants to help you.