Mixed stat units - Traitor Enforcer (with ogrynn buddy)

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yesterday, I played my first game of 11th using a mixed T unit (you can see my comments on the game here - it was the first game with my "technically, its a knights army" list).

 

Anyway, as part of that list I played a Traitor Enforcer, which is a unit composed of a human commissar type + his ogrynn bodyguard - so, it's a character unit composed of 1 character with T 3 (and a 5++) and 1 non character with T 6 (and no inv).  While its a leader unit, I didn't attach it to another unit.

 

Where are the rules for mixed stat units?  I couldn't find them - are they not there, or are they just hiding?  Anyway, I played the unit as T 6 until the ogrynn died, on the thinking that if you didn't use the highest value things like mixed leadership units also didn't work.  As well, if attached, does the same apply to the bodyguard unit as a whole - I would assume not, but that's just because that was the rule last edition.

 

The ogrynn also has the rule that character models in the unit (so, the enforcer) have a 4++ FNP while the ogrynn is still alive.  Does this rule ever apply in 11th outside of precision?  Given that the enforcer ihas the CHARACTER keyword and the ogrynn doesn't, outside of precision I can't see any circumstance where wounds would go on the enforcer before the ogrynn is dead as even mortal wounds have to go on the non-character(s) first.

[Indy Techwisp]

The Enforcer unit splits into 2 groups for taking damage: Character Model and Ogryn. If the Enforcer was also leading a Traitor Guard Squad, the Guardsmen become a 3rd group.

(The example page uses Saint Celestine and her 2 Minions with a joined Seraphim unit being split into 3 groups.)

 

A Precision attack would directly target the group containing only the character model and in this circumstance if the Ogryn group isn't already dead the 4++ kicks in.

[Valkyrion]

Yes, @Indy Techwisp, but what Toughness value does the Enforcer unit use? 

I'd always err on equal models uses highest toughness, but I don't think that's actually written down anywhere. 

 

[Indy Techwisp]

For toughness of the whole unit, there's no specified rule yet, so assume the rule from 10th for now.

That's what the advice from the Comp community says.

[Indy Techwisp]

Popping back in to say that I remembered to check the App.

It's annoyingly buried within a different rule, but here's the multitoughness rule:

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Ah... so its annoyingly one of those rules that hasn't made it into any of their openly available documents.  I'm liking 11th so far, but if more and more rules become locked behind the app, that's going to be a real pain.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

And am I correct in I'm taking that you agree the 4+ FNP never triggers outside precision?

Edited 19 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[Tawnis]

10 minutes ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

And am I correct in I'm taking that you agree the 4+ FNP never triggers outside precision?

 

From what I understand, the Enforcer should have the FNP for the entire attack sequence as it happens simultaneously, even if the Ogryn dies. 

If a new unit makes an attack after the Ogryn dies, but the Enforcer is still alive, the FNP is gone. 

Edited 19 hours ago by Tawnis

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Ah, okay.  That makes sense - I guess that would be covered by the "what rules do models in a unit keep" chart. 

Edited 19 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[Tawnis]

There shouldn't be anything that changes during an attack sequence, once a unit has finished attacking, dead models or new effects are then removed / applied. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

So I had a huge deep dive into the rules here, but in typing it out I came to conclusion I was misreading a portion of the rules.... so, no need to go down the rabbit hole with you guys (well, I do a bit anyway).  

 

It seems the rules for @Tawnis's statement are at page 67, below the chart, answer this question.  It reads:

 

"In all of the above cases, if that last model was destroyed as
the result of an attack, the ability it was conferring upon the
attached unit applies until the attacking unit has resolved all of
its attacks."

 

The "above case" in the chart are 1) characters; 2) body guards; and 3) specific models conferring rules (the ogryn would be 3), as he is neither a character nor a bodyguard but is a model conferring a rule).  For type 3), it states that when the model conferring the rule is destroyed, the rule goes away.  My misstep was putting too much emphasis on the "last model was destroyed" language in the quoted section - given its reference to the "above cases" the last model has to mean the last model conferring the rule, rather than the last model of the unit as I was first reading it.

 

I suppose one could argue that the language in the rule specifically indicating the rule goes away when the ogryn dies over rides the general rule that it doesn't (until the end of the attacker's activation), but given the difference in general rules phrasing across the editions I don't think that's a particularly strong argument, though I could see an FAQ adopting that position.

 

Anyway, thanks again for the help.

Edited 18 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[Tawnis]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

I suppose one could argue that the language in the rule specifically indicating the rule goes away when the ogryn dies over rides the general rule that it doesn't (until the end of the attacker's activation), but given the difference in general rules phrasing across the editions I don't think that's a particularly strong argument, though I could see an FAQ adopting that position.

 

Yeah, if it worked like this, then every army in the game that gets buffs to attacking units below starting or half strength would be incentivized to slow roll all their dice so that all the attacks past the critical dead model would be stronger. As a Kroot player that has this as his army rule, I'm positive this is not how it works, (or at the very least is not how it's intended to work regardless of what terminology might have gotten mixed up in edition transition). 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I don't think your example applies (given that all such rules that I am familiar with (chaos has a few) trigger on targeting a unit, which is long past by the time you are removing models).  Instead, given the timing, I would expect it would pretty much only apply to defensive effects.  That said, I'm not familiar with the kroot rule to which you refer or its exact phrasing.

 

That said, it does make sense to have it persist until the end of the unit's activation, though outside of precision and weirdly written rules like this one, I don't think it would come up often.

Edited 18 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui

[Tawnis]

"Each time a Kroot model form your army makes an attack, add 1 to the Hit roll if the target of that attack is below its Starting Strength, and add 1 to the Wound roll as well if the target of that attack is Below Half-strength."

 

It's not exactly the same, but it's just another instance of effects happening at the completion of the attack rather than during. While removing a FNP is far less finicky than applying a buff mid combat, the same general principal should still apply. 

 

You wouldn't roll the plasma guns, kill the Ogryn, then lasgun down the enforcer without a FNP in the same sequence; same thing for Kroot, you wouldn't Tanglebomb a model off the squad, then get +1 to hit with all the Kroot Rifles in the same unit just because you roll the attacks separately. 

Edited 17 hours ago by Tawnis

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yeah, that language would potentially be problematic - I had imagined it as being "whenever you target a unit below half strength" which wouldn't have this issue.  That said, page 67 doesn't seem to speak to that particular issue, so I'm not sure if there is currently an answer to it in the rules other than standing on general principle.

 

That said, I don't think you can slow roll anymore - you have to use the "batch rolling" method.  That said, if it does recheck target strength with each batch, it does potentially permit one to "game" the system by ordering your batches in an order to maximizing the benefit of triggering the benefit mid-activation.  This could be compounded by purposely moving models so that they don't get full LOS to any of the models in the target unit (while others do) so as to change their BS and split them off into their own resolution "batch".

Edited 16 hours ago by Dr_Ruminahui