40K July update

[DemonGSides]

26 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

Please don't exaggerate the topic. Just because a handful of ppl (including me) in this forum lamented about not being able to take the signature detachment in a 1k game (which I play regularly) you can hardly tell that "loosing our minds".

I also find it irritating, that you can't find this rule anywhere right now. 

 

No, people legitimately lost their minds, I was here. You may not have been one of those people, but people here and abroad literally were coming unglued at the idea of not being able to play LAG at 1k.  No exaggeration necessary.

 

And now we're getting substantiated rumors that Space Marines are being changed anyways and most likely BA and other 'mostly compliant' subfactions of the SM line are getting their own army rules.  I wonder what the BA one's going to be?

Kinda makes the whole wailing and gnashing of teeth over it seem pretty silly, but that's also half GW's fault; if they had just outright said "This edition, subfaction Space Marines will be getting their own army rules, stay tuned for more information" it might have curbed some of that wild outcry.  PROBABLY NOT, but it might've stopped a few people from losing it.

[Rowland]

But @DemonGSides I wouldn’t have a clue how to play the game without the app atm.  Being new to the game I don’t remember all the rules, detachments, buffs and so on, so I need it all in one place, which you get with the app.  That’s why I like the old 10th edition Combat Patrol, everything was on 3 sheets and a rulebook.

Hopefully they will lift the app restriction for 1k and make it casual.

 

Please excuse my ignorance but I guess you guys who have been playing for years have an old skool way of doing things…what is it?  Is there another app that you can print all this stuff off for example?  I know GW used to make cards for factions but they don’t do that anymore.  I’d much rather print some stuff off for playing than use an app.  I’ve never seen a real game played and the guys on the youtubes seem to just know stuff…

Edited July 23 by Rowland

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

No, people legitimately lost their minds, I was here. You may not have been one of those people, but people here and abroad literally were coming unglued at the idea of not being able to play LAG at 1k.  No exaggeration necessary.

 

And now we're getting substantiated rumors that Space Marines are being changed anyways and most likely BA and other 'mostly compliant' subfactions of the SM line are getting their own army rules.  I wonder what the BA one's going to be?

Kinda makes the whole wailing and gnashing of teeth over it seem pretty silly, but that's also half GW's fault; if they had just outright said "This edition, subfaction Space Marines will be getting their own army rules, stay tuned for more information" it might have curbed some of that wild outcry.  PROBABLY NOT, but it might've stopped a few people from losing it.

Let's be honest rhe real reason it happened was because they wrote the agents rules on the back of a postage stamp and they were impossible to play sub 2k.

 

The BA favor in here was high though, I agree.

[Valkyrion]

@Rowland I'm brand new too, and I've been playing this game since 1993. That isn't as contradictory as it sounds. 

I've never used an app so I can't help you there, but my way of doing 11th is simply going to be to write out the normal unit datasheets in Word but without all the 'may swap this for that' and just have what the unit has. 

There's probably a better way, but this is mine. It also helps to reinforce the numbers as you're doing it. 'Krak Missiles are S9 now? Okay then' etc. 

[DemonGSides]

49 minutes ago, Rowland said:

But @DemonGSides I wouldn’t have a clue how to play the game without the app atm.  Being new to the game I don’t remember all the rules, detachments, buffs and so on, so I need it all in one place, which you get with the app.  That’s why I like the old 10th edition Combat Patrol, everything was on 3 sheets and a rulebook.

Hopefully they will lift the app restriction for 1k and make it casual.

Nothing really stops you from doing that currently, even within the app.  You can make a 1k list with a 3 cost DP detatchment.  It doesn't yell at you at all, so I'm not sure what you're seeing different.  I even just loaded these 'incorrect' lists into the war journal and it didn't throw an error.

 

Combat Patrol =/= 1k.  I don't know how to play Combat Patrol because I think it's mostly a bad way to learn the game as it teaches you slightly different things than are the truth (or at least it used to, I haven't looked into it in 11th).  I think it's much better to just play the game at slightly increasing points from whatever level once you have some models, or utilize starter boxes.

 

And no one remembers all the rules.  The point is that the thing you're complaining about isn't actually happening; the app doesn't care, and if it does, the most it says is "Hey this is wrong, but feel free to use everything anyways", though in this exact scenario there actually isn't even a complaint..  I just made a 1k Imperial Guard list with Grizzled Company as a choice and it didn't once throw a flag.  Heck, I even just added a 2nd 1 DP detatchment and it didn't even yell at me then.  AND It had both detatchment rules and all applicable strategems in the Command Bunker.

 

49 minutes ago, Rowland said:

Please excuse my ignorance but I guess you guys who have been playing for years have an old skool way of doing things…what is it?  Is there another app that you can print all this stuff off for example?  I know GW used to make cards for factions but they don’t do that anymore.  I’d much rather print some stuff off for playing than use an app.  I’ve never seen a real game played and the guys on the youtubes seem to just know stuff…

 

You use the codex, or you use the app, or you use another App (New Recruit is a big one).  Combat Patrol stuff is all housed in that new Combat Patrol book as far as I know, but like I said, I think Combat Patrol is mostly bad.  It's nowhere near as good as Spearhead has been for AoS, which is a real shame as there's nothing stopping them from making Combat Patrol better.

 

For keeping track of battles, I've only ever used Tabletop Battles in the past, so I don't know how the new one in the app works.  I'm gonna give it a run at my next game day, but I've been stupid busy since 11th has come out so I actually haven't played a full game yet of it, but everyone I've heard talk of it is it's pretty close to 10th with a few small but important changes.

4 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

@Rowland I'm brand new too, and I've been playing this game since 1993. That isn't as contradictory as it sounds. 

I've never used an app so I can't help you there, but my way of doing 11th is simply going to be to write out the normal unit datasheets in Word but without all the 'may swap this for that' and just have what the unit has. 

There's probably a better way, but this is mine. It also helps to reinforce the numbers as you're doing it. 'Krak Missiles are S9 now? Okay then' etc. 

 

I actually like the act of writing out my list and strategy into a powerpoint/word doc just to help get a grip of what everything does and how I want to make my battle work.  Helps reinforce statlines through repetition, kinda like taking notes, so I don't think there's anything wrong with just writing your stuff out by hand.  I've got a buddy who does that with his lists still as it helps him visualize it better than any of the list builder websites do.

[Tawnis]

1 hour ago, Rowland said:

But @DemonGSides I wouldn’t have a clue how to play the game without the app atm.  Being new to the game I don’t remember all the rules, detachments, buffs and so on, so I need it all in one place, which you get with the app.  That’s why I like the old 10th edition Combat Patrol, everything was on 3 sheets and a rulebook.

Hopefully they will lift the app restriction for 1k and make it casual.

 

Please excuse my ignorance but I guess you guys who have been playing for years have an old skool way of doing things…what is it?  Is there another app that you can print all this stuff off for example?  I know GW used to make cards for factions but they don’t do that anymore.  I’d much rather print some stuff off for playing than use an app.  I’ve never seen a real game played and the guys on the youtubes seem to just know stuff…

As someone who has never used the App and has zero intention of ever doing so in the future; I use my core rules, my codex, and whatever the current updated FAQ/Errata on Warcom is. 

 

If something is unclear, talk to your opponent about it before the game and come to an agreement. Most of the things that are unclear RAW are either obvious, or fringe cases. You want to use Gladius in a 1k game, just talk about it ahead of time; if your opponent is such a RAW stickler that you can't play the game unless can prove every teeny tiny little detail to them every time, they're probably not someone you want to be playing with anyway. Same thing with the GSC faction rule before they updated it, it clearly was supposed to work the way it did last edition. 

I can understand the concern if you're prepping for a tournament, but in that case, check with the TO before the event and they should have all the info for you. If you're just throwing dice with some friends, you should be able to work it all out between the two of you. 

 

There is even a rule put in every core rulebook that says if something is unclear and you can't agree on it, roll a dice to determine who is "Correct" and move on. 

Edited July 23 by Tawnis

[Rowland]

I will look into making my own sheets.

I looked at New recruit and I’m loathe to spend more money atm.

I do get a flag (orange warning sign) saying my force disposition isn’t valid, but yes I went on to make a 3 DP 1k army and stuck it in war journal without issue.

As for Combat Patrol, I like it for its simplicity atm.  It takes my friend and I about 5 hours to set up and play the 5 rounds.  I don’t have to choose a disposition and so on which is fine to start with.  I just counted the number of coloured bars i.e. the stratagems for an army playing ceramite sentinels v the stratagems for the Sanguinary Spearhead CP and its 24-19 so it’s not so far off things-to-get-your-head-around-wise.

Combat Patrol doesn’t seem to be any different to playing 1,2 or 3 k games we use the exact same rules.  Combat Patrol doesn’t have its own rule set.  The only difference is in some of the weapon/armour strengths, buffs and strategems, but as for moving, terrain and all that jazz, same rules.  It wouldn’t be any different to go from combat patrol to 1k than changing from one 1k faction to another I expect.  For me the big difference is unit numbers.

I will tire of CP, my mate and I could never get Octavius to beat the Vardenghast swarm and I’ve made a couple of 1k lists using as few units as possible.  Once I’ve got my head around getting all the info in one place and we can remember what a fatal wound does that a mortal wound doesn’t and all the constant looking stuff up we hope to give it a go.  I’m pretty close to having 3 x 1 k armies 

[DemonGSides]

14 minutes ago, Rowland said:

I looked at New recruit and I’m loathe to spend more money atm.

New recruit is free for all but the most niche of uses.  You shouldn't be spending anything.  Make an account and you're good to go for most necessary uses.

 

14 minutes ago, Rowland said:

 It takes my friend and I about 5 hours to set up and play the 5 rounds.

That seems long for a Combat Patrol game.  They're supposed to be quick affairs.  That's 'full game' level of time spent.

 

16 minutes ago, Rowland said:

Combat Patrol doesn’t seem to be any different to playing 1,2 or 3 k games we use the exact same rules.  Combat Patrol doesn’t have its own rule set.  The only difference is in some of the weapon/armour strengths, buffs and strategems, but as for moving, terrain and all that jazz, same rules

We aren't going to agree on this.  Changing statlines and strategems and how the army works within it's detatchment are huge parts of the game to me, and I'd rather just learn the actual game then the step in between, but as always, play what makes you happy!  Just don't go around saying that the app can't do things that it can, is all.

 

22 minutes ago, Rowland said:

constant looking stuff up we hope to give it a go.

This never goes away, btw.  As long as you can remember the way Strength v Toughness works, and learn your own rules at least passably, you're doing a great job.  That's not an easy task, that's why I think it's worthwhile to just jump in.

 

[Scribe]

27 minutes ago, Rowland said:

It takes my friend and I about 5 hours to set up and play the 5 rounds.

 

Sheesh. That's a complete nonstarter for my time.

 

Is that typical of a normal game now?

[Lathe Biosas]

4 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Sheesh. That's a complete nonstarter for my time.

 

Is that typical of a normal game now?

 

It sounds like people unfamiliar with the new rules.

 

I saw two people playing the other day and they started around 11:15 and were packed up and gone by 1:30–ish... definitely before 2, because I took over the table at 2pm.

 

They were playing Dark Eldar v.  Necrons, if that matters.

 

 

[DemonGSides]

Hour to banter while we all pile out of our cars and get everything set up in the room we play in (We usually have multiple games going on at once in a space that's not reserved for gaming, so we have to set up tables and terrain and break it down every time)

 

2.5 for game overview and first two rounds

half hour lunch to chew some pizza

2 hours for the back half (By the 3rd round there's usually quite a bit dead)

 

6 hours for a regular game day feels normal to me; we all get there around 9 AM, and are done by 3 at the absolute latest.  If i'm just popping over to my buddy's house who's got a dedicated gaming room, we can finish a full 5 rounds in 4 hours not including drinking beers/smoking time, but I don't play the game to NOT do those things so I wouldn't know what a more competitive player experiences.

 

 

[Bat33.1]

5 hours ago, Rowland said:

@DemonGSides how do you mean?  If I’m using the app to make an army, War journal and command bunker it limits you to 2 points for a detachment etc.

The error I was getting was where I had made a 500 points combat ptrol and it was saying my force disposition wasn’t allowed for some reason.

Pretty sure the 2DP restriction is gone from 1k games in the app now. GW said previously that 3DP would be permitted in 1k games it was just the app that hadn't caught up 

[Scribe]

21 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Hour to banter while we all pile out of our cars and get everything set up in the room we play in (We usually have multiple games going on at once in a space that's not reserved for gaming, so we have to set up tables and terrain and break it down every time)

 

2.5 for game overview and first two rounds

half hour lunch to chew some pizza

2 hours for the back half (By the 3rd round there's usually quite a bit dead)

 

6 hours for a regular game day feels normal to me; we all get there around 9 AM, and are done by 3 at the absolute latest.  If i'm just popping over to my buddy's house who's got a dedicated gaming room, we can finish a full 5 rounds in 4 hours not including drinking beers/smoking time, but I don't play the game to NOT do those things so I wouldn't know what a more competitive player experiences.

 

 

 

6 hours for a single regular game is...way too much, but if thats the direction its gone, wow.

 

Half that would be about the max.

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

No, people legitimately lost their minds, I was here. You may not have been one of those people, but people here and abroad literally were coming unglued at the idea of not being able to play LAG at 1k.  No exaggeration necessary.

Yes people did lose their minds here, and I think GW should've stuck to their guns and said "tough luck". LAG is that much better than the other 2DP detachments, get over it or play 2k games. 

[Evil Eye]

If memory serves, most of the annoyance was Blood Angels players (rightfully) annoyed the detachment that made Blood Angels play like Blood Angels was limited to 2K and above.

 

Of course, half the problem comes from over-reliance on bolt-on rules like detachments and so forth for representing things that should really just be basic unit/wargear options... the other half coming from trying to force app integration into a tabletop wargame such that something as simple as a basic errata/FAQ becomes a clusterfeth.

[HeadlessCross]

26 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

the detachment that made Blood Angels play like Blood Angels was limited to 2K and above.

Blood Angels have divergent favoritism and have some of the most detachments you can take, exclusive or not exclusive. So which of those exclusive detachments didn't make Blood Angels feel like Blood Angels?

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Rowland said:

I will look into making my own sheets.

I looked at New recruit and I’m loathe to spend more money atm.

I agree that you should not pay for New Recruit. In general, what I do, is use list building apps to help me play around with unit choice and points. Once I hit 50 to 70 less than my goal, I check out the detachment(s) I want to use and enhancement point costs. I tended to stick to simpler detachments when I was learning 10th edition (and will be doing the same when I can get a game in after I move). I printed out the dataslates from New Recruit (I don't have a physical copy of the Codex), and printed out a copy of the detachment rule and strategems which I wrote out. I then wrote an index card listing the strategems and when I would want to use them. I'd check against that list at the start of a phase to refresh my memory of what strats I had available and might be useful given the situation on the board.

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

6 hours for a single regular game is...way too much, but if thats the direction its gone, wow.

 

Half that would be about the max.

 

 

I like spending time with my friends so it works for me. I would say actual game time is still at the 4ish hour mark but that's also why I don't do it every day. 

[Lord_Ikka]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Is that typical of a normal game now?

No. My gaming buddy and I just finished a competitive practice game Tuesday at 3 1/2 hours, including setup and breakdown. We had just got the brand new terrain layouts (so measuring for setup took time) and it's still early enough in the edition that we are having to look up rules more than we would normally, so that is a longer game for us. 3 hours is roughly the tournament standard for a 2k game. 5+ hours is definitely a pretty casual game of modern 40k.

[Scribe]

20 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

 

I like spending time with my friends so it works for me. I would say actual game time is still at the 4ish hour mark but that's also why I don't do it every day. 

 

My group was a bunch of adults getting our games in after we got the kids down, not "let's take up a full weekend day after typical errands are done" lol

[Rowland]

I think a lot of you guys have been playing this too long to appreciate the difficulty a newcomer has.  @jaxom and @DemonGSides just putting an army together to make, say, 1k using the paperwork looks like a nightmare.  In the app you press a few buttons and the units are visually represented (so you know what type it is) and the enhancements and costs are all there, it does the maths as you go.  I tried looking for a one stop shop that I could print from so looked at that other app.  I pressed on stratagems and hit a paywall.  There are lots of apps for army building but I’m already paying GW atm.

Another advantage I see in Combat Patrol is its table size.  My dining table isn’t wide enough for the full size board so I’ve got to get and store them at some point. (I think 1k can be played on the same size)

As for the time… my mate comes round at 12, we decide on the layout, set that out with all the measurements.  Get the figures out (30 Tyranids) set them up.  Make some decisions and we start.  Each round we move those figures, procrastinate a bit, measure from there to there, change our mind,  how about there to there, move more figures, never remember overwatch, look up what anti psyker and devastating wounds are pick up 14 dice roll them, pick up more dice roll them etc, remove figures.  Next round look up wether an enhancement can be used, discuss it, look up what sustained hits are AGAIN, decide wether they’re mortal wounds, do mortal wounds even count? Move some more figures, forget to use oath of moment, use oath of moment, discuss wether we should of used synapse whatever, look up all the stratagems in case they can save that unit, roll more dice…hopefully I make my point.

One day, we might remember half of this and things will go quicker but playing once, maybe twice a month it will take time.

40k is a rich and complicated game, that’s why you like it, but for newcomers who had never spared a thought to it before it’s a quagmire of rules and added extras with data in many places.

Combat Patrol is 40k lite.  I get that I don’t get all the choices and this buff does that and that a special loadout kills everyone and playing one CP over and over can become a bit dull (especially if it never wins looking at you Captain Octavius) but with a few additions of units over time you were able to turn Octavius (Ultramarines) into Rampart Force Torreus (Imperial fists) or Stormglaive hunters (White Scars) which then means you have around 1.5k points all the while learning what a devastating wound does and how terrain works but at 57 years old it makes my brain hurt to think of more.

Edited July 24 by Rowland

[kabaakaba]

Try handwrite your rules on the paper. It's best way to learn something cause you use Micromotor skills. Also, while you're writing, you're trying to understand every rule. I played a lot of the 7th edition, but when I returned to the 10th, I found I didn't know the game anymore. Also I'm playing sadhammer... So I need to learn the rules for both sides. And writing them down on paper really helps.

Edited July 24 by kabaakaba

[Rowland]

Spoiler

 

Thanks, after I wrote my age a tremendous irony dawned on me.  During lockdown I got into iRacing.  I bought a rig, VR, triples, a new PC everything was about upgrading, software, hardware, paywalls for this and that.  It became ridiculous, people were creating apps for data and I got fed up with the whole thing so I turned to board gaming.  I then remembered my youth and pouring metal into molds and then painting and playing Napoleonics.  So I turned to Warhammer because my mate played it once.  Already I’ve had to upgrade my iPad to use the app and subscribed to Warhammer+.

I think pencil and paper is the way to go…huzzah!

[kabaakaba]

Heh,I tried playing with the app and it's terrible, my brain refuses to remember, since all the rules seem to be at hand, and as a result, I spent more time watching the rules than playing. I made small 2x3-inch cards with unit rules and brief rules for each phase. I just wrote them down on the card. I never used them because I memorized them while writing and double-checked them.

[Rowland]

@kabaakaba Sadhammer  love it!  Had to look it up.  Probably a conversation on another thread but are there Ai type rules i.e. attack the nearest enemy etc?