A little help - collection expansion/listbuilding

[TheDarkOne]

I need some advice, I've played a few games of 11th now, and I'm eager to play more, i can only get time once a week usually.

 

two thirds of the games I've played, i was wiped off the table turn 2. where I've done my movement phase, tried to advance and hide and set up, and then been completely annihilated in my opponents turn 2. 

 

against marines, and world eaters this has happened. both times i didn't have enough units to cover behind me and left room for a devastating deepstrike in my back field.  against the marines his shooting annihilated most things with deepstriking sternguard vulkan and flamer squad and melta squad plus 4 predators. against world eaters he charged everything turn two and killed my rhino with defiler shooting then huron's team died to Khârn plus berserkers and some exalted giant terminator guys killed my raptors and vindicators and and and... it was insane! I don't know how to deal with being overwhelmed so fast. the shop owner was saying i need more screening units, but i don't want to take more stuff that is just going to die! my whole army does that just fine...

 

I'd like to finish more games... It feels so bad to just get nuked and that was the one game i could play that week... man being a responsible adult with a family and job sucks... 

 

This is what I was using in the last game vs world eaters:

 

Murdertalon Raiders+Veterans of the Long War (Take and hold)

 

Huron, Masters of the Maelstrom, 5 Legionnaires

Cypher

Jump Lord with Pinions in 5 Warp talons

Sorc Terminator Lord w 5 Terminators

 

10 cultists

5 legionaries 2 hv wep lascannnon

10 legionaries 2 hv wep lascannon, meltagun

 

2 rhino

 

5 terminators w reaper

2 vindicators

2 5 man raptor squads 3 hv wep plasmagun meltagun

2 5 man warp talon squads

 

i hold the warp talons and 1 vindi i reserve usually, terminators sometimes...

 

So its... not enough screening? it feel like even if my whole army was on the board the world eater's would have charged and chewed through all of it...  

 

I guess I'm limited by the models I can field, what I have available is:

 

45 marines (chosen, legionaries whatever)

2 rhinos plus 1 unbuilt

2 vindicators

01 raptors

10 warp talons

30 cultists

5 terminators plus 5 unbuilt

6 bikes

hellbrute

masters of the maelstrom

cypher

huron

Abaddon

sorc terminator lord

chaos lord on foot

2x jump lord (1 looks an awful lot like haarkan...)

master of executions

lord discordant on hellstalker

fabius bile

sorcerer

dark commune

4 war dogs (any config)

 

unbuilt:

nurgle demon prince

demon prince

havocs

2 boxes accursed cultists

forgefiend/maulerfiend

helldrake

rhino

5 terminators

 

I'm working on building lists with what i have assembled, and they all seem to have 2 vindicators in them, because that's what i have... 

 

please, help inspire me:

 

What lists/detachments would you build given what I have? and why?

What would you buy to add that I don't have? and why?

What screens for what? what units are deadly enough on the clap back to warrant screening and baiting charges? 

How much is too much in reserve?

 

...back to painting my raptors...

 

 

Edited July 31 by TheDarkOne

[kabaakaba]

I'm not csm player, but even for me it's obvious you need more cultists, with me coherency rule 2 more 10 man squads would do the job each screens at least 21" of space, at least it's prevent deepstrikes. And obviously they can screen/counter charge WE to prevent your main forces to be locked in combat and wiped.

[Tallarn Commander]

Dark One,

 

Yes, this edition does have a bit of a learning curve.

 

As Kabaakaba notes, putting a couple of Cultist Squads in your backfield would go a long way to screening out enemy deepstrikes.

 

I don't think you need to purchase any additional models. All of us are all still getting our heads wrapped around the new dispositions and the new board layouts. I think that with more practice, you will improve. I lost my first 5 games this edition. But I've been figuring things out and I have won 3 out of  my last 5 games. 11th definitely has a steep learning curve!

 

There are any number of detachments you could run--they all have their own strengths.

 

One force combination you might want to run is

 

1. Firebase Core--works with any detachment

Keep your pair of Vindicators, each supported by a Warpsmith. You don't have Warpsmith models--but just proxy Warpsmiths for now. That will set you back 500 points but it will give you a very solid firebase.

 

2. Melee Core--works with any detachment

Then you might wish to toss a couple of 10-trooper Chosen Squads in there, one supported by Fabius Bile and the other supported by Huron and Masters of the Maelstrom. That combo would run you about 915 points, but it gives you 2 very solid melee units. I don't think you need Rhinos for transportation or protection, terrain is quite dense this edition (although Rhinos are still good for secondaries and crushing impacts)

 

3. Flexible "Side Bar"--varies based on detachment

Now that you have 2 solid ranged units and 2 solid melee units, you can spend your remaining 595 points any way you want. This will depend on your list. As you probably know, you really need to build your list to your missions in this edition.

 

If you went, for example, with Creations of Bile, that would make your army a Purge army so actions are less important and having large Astartes Heretics infantry blocks that are arguably a bit more durable is more important. So you might add 10 Legionaries on foot, a rapid ingressing squad of 10 Raptors (Raptors really shine in Creations of Bile and don't need to spend a CP on the lance strat like they do in Murdertalon), a small squad of 5 Legionaries to keep back and do mid late game secondaries, and 2 squads of 10 cultists for holding your backfield. That will run you 585 points.

 

 

 

List 1 of 3: Creations of Bile--Purge the Foe Disposition

Spoiler

Characters

-Warpsmith (60)

-Warpsmith (60)

-Huron (130)

-Fabius Bile (100)

 

Battle Line

-10 Cultists (50)

-10 Cultists (50)

-10 Legionaries (170)

-5 Legionaries (90)

 

Other Datasheets

-Masters of the Maelstrom (145)

-10 Chosen (270)

-10 Chosen (270)

-Vindicator (185)

-Vindicator (185)

-10 Raptors (210)

 

Total=1985 points

 

 

If you wanted to stay with Felhammer plus Murdertalon, then you could use your remaining points for, say, 1 squad of 10 Raptors with a Raptor Lord, 1 small 5-trooper squad of Raptors, 1 small squad of Red Corsair Raiders (just tell your opponent "these are infiltrating raiders"), and 3 squads of 10 Cultists (2 to guard your backfield and 1 to outflank on Turn 3). Now this list is well kitted out for Recon missions, bamfing all over the board while guarding your corners with Vindicators and Chosen blobs.

 

 

List 2 of 3 Felhammer Plus Murdertalon--Recon Disposition

Spoiler

Characters

-Warpsmith (60)

-Warpsmith (60)

-Huron (130)

-Fabius Bile (100)

 

Battle Line

-10 Cultists (50)

-10 Cultists (50)

-10 Cultists (50)

 

Other Datasheets

-Masters of the Maelstrom (145)

-10 Chosen (270)

-10 Chosen (270)

-Vindicator (185)

-Vindicator (185)

-10 Raptors (210)

-5 Raptors (110)

-5 Red Corsair Raiders (110)

 

Total=1,985 points

 

If you went with Take and Hold Felhammer you'd want to shift to holding objectives so perhaps add in a big Termie Squad (you would have to assemble your remaining Termies), a small squad of infiltrating Raiders, and 2 cultist squads

List 3 of 3: Felhammer  with Take and Hold Disposition

Spoiler

Characters

-Warpsmith (60)

-Warpsmith (60)

-Huron (130)

-Fabius Bile (100)

 

Battle Line

-10 Cultists (50)

-10 Cultists (50)

 

Other Datasheets

-Masters of the Maelstrom (145)

-10 Chosen (270)

-10 Chosen (270)

-Vindicator (185)

-Vindicator (185)

-10 Chaos Terminators (350)--this squad would love to have a Termie Sorc to support them but I could not find the points

-5 Red Corsair Raiders (110)

 

Total=1,965--leaving some points over for enhancements

 

You also still have 1 detachment point left over so maybe go with a 3 point detachment like Pactbound Zealots instead of Felhammer. Your list is still sort of kitted out for the Priority Assets mission that comes with Pactbound Zealots' disposition. You have a Raiders Squad to do your Turn 1 action on your central objective. Then, once the Raiders have been killed, on Turns 2 and 3 Warpsmiths can do your central action objective. And on Turns 4 and 5 anyone left alive can do your central objective actions.

 

 

In the end, these lists are not really important. What is really important is to just get more reps in and to learn. Be sure to ask your opponent after every game what they think you could have done better. That always helps me quite a bit.

 

 

Good luck and have fun!

 

For the Dark Gods!

 

 

-

[TheDarkOne]

Thanks so much for the advice!

 

i am part of an escalation league, and this is the new list i am running, i'll try big blocks of chosen next...

 

Pactbound Zealouts - Priority Assets

 

Huron, Masters, 5 Legionaries

Cypher

Chaos Lord, fnp enhancement, hammer plasma pistol, 10 Legionaries (Slaanesh)

 

2x 10 cultists (Nurgle)

legionaries attached above

 

2 rhino (One Undivided, One Slaanesh)

3x bikers, meltas, fist (Nurgle)

2 vindicators (Nurgle)

2 raptor squads (Nurgle)

2 warp talon squads (Slaanesh)

hellbrute, lascannon and Missile launcher (Nurgle)

 

playing a more casual game against my friend's

T'au on Thursday, and should get my next round league pairing tomorrow.

 

in the meantime I painted some cultists:

Edited August 5 by TheDarkOne

[Tallarn Commander]

Your cultists look outstanding. I love that Cultist Leader--in my forces the model is named Sevatar and he is a sergeant in 1st Squad.

 

Looks like an effective and fun list. Are the Raptors and Warp Talons squads of 5 or 10?

 

Have fun!

Edited August 5 by Tallarn Commander

[TheDarkOne]

Squads of 5.

 

pairings for the next round of the league are up, I'm against blood angels:

 

Space Marines
Blood Angels
Liberator Assault Group (3 Detachment Points)
Take and Hold
Strike Force (2,000 Points)

ATTACHED UNITS

Attached unit 1

Librarian in Terminator Armour (75 Points)
• Attached as: Leader (Character)
• Warlord
Ancient in Terminator Armour (65 Points)
• Attached as: Support (Character)
Terminator Assault Squad (165 Points)
• Attached as: Bodyguard ()


Attached unit 2

Sanguinary Priest (75 Points)
• Attached as: Support (Character)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (170 Points)
• Attached as: Bodyguard ()

Attached unit 3

Lemartes (100 Points)
• Attached as: Leader (Character)
Death Company Marines with Jump Packs (230 Points)
• Attached as: Bodyguard ()

Attached unit 4

Commander Dante (125 Points)
• Attached as: Leader (Character)
Sanguinary Guard (260 Points)
• Attached as: Bodyguard ()

CHARACTERS

Chief Librarian Mephiston (110 Points)

Lieutenant with Combi-weapon (95 Points)

BATTLELINE

Intercessor Squad (80 Points)

OTHER DATASHEETS

Baal Predator (125 Points)

Gladiator Lancer (160 Points)

Gladiator Lancer (160 Points)

i am not sure what to expect, any advice on heat to watch out for etc?

[Tallarn Commander]

Looks like a strong BA list.

 

Hopefully your Vindicators enjoy their tank duel with the Lancers. While you were not able to work Warpsmiths into your list, your oponnent doesn't have any tech marines, so both of you will probably be hitting on 4s most of the time. While your opponents Lancers benefit from the Oath, your Vindies get Dark Pacts, crits on 5s if you succeed in your Dark Pact rolls, and Helbrute buffs.